From: troxler.nospam@i1.net (Tim Oxler)
Subject: Re: Which language pays most -- C++ vs. Java?
Date: 1998/01/29
Date: 1998-01-29T00:00:00+00:00 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <34d0bd09.5552628@news1.i1.net> (raw)
In-Reply-To: 01bd2c45$f7ff6f40$7261b693@HP5079Q
"dogmat" <macdonaldrj@bv.com> wrote:
>> > > It's really very simple. Anyone smart enough and focused enough to
>> earn a
>> > > PhD in *any* hard-core technical subject can learn programming and
>> > > computer science on the job, and is therefore a good bet.
>> >
>> > Some of the worst code and UI design I've ever seen came from a guy
>> > with *3* PhDs. I can only guess that people with a tolerance for the
>> > BS of academia also have a tolerance for BS/ugly code and designs.
>
>Both points probably true and not inconsistent. Programming is a special
>subject and
>a PhD doth not a programmer make.
>
Agreed.
>> I knew another guy, PhD in mathematics. It seemed strange to me that he
>> ended as a programmer. But it really struck me when I saw some of his
>progs
>> : you ever unlocked a record that doesn't exist?
>>
>> By the way, my thoughts, based on experience (and I have no PhD) : Having
>3
>> PhD's warrants that one can say out loud (and probably proudly) that he
>has
>> 3 PhD's. Furthermore, directives who care more for appearance than for
>> substance tend to preffer guys with, at least, a PhD, since they fit
>> fantastically in their corporative picture. Fortunately there's always
>> still enough no-PhDed-people around to get the work done.
>
>Well, since we're taking off our gloves, I'll throw back the insult (I have
>a PhD):
>
>In engineering, if the programmer writes the application, it'll look great
>and be absolutely useless.
>If the engineer writes the application, it'll look like hell, both
>internally and externally, but it will actually be useful.
>
Well, my schooling and training is on the business side. I think that
similiar arguments could be applied to that spectrum in the form of
Business Analyst, MIS programmer, and CS programmer.
>Aside: Its comes down to requirements analysis, you might say. Sorry, but
>get more than 3 engineers
>in a room, and they'll argue forever. You'll never get a engineering
>software requirements package that is sufficiently precise for a
>programmer's needs. Blame the engineers for their lack-of-rigor? Yes, but
>that's the nature of the domain beast.
>Its easier for an engineer to write the program himself or train the
>programmer to be an engineer than it
>is to write out the specifications "in full".
>
[Business spectrum perspective]. I've seen other programmers that are
extremely talented, but lacked the ability to translate "Computerese"
into "Businessese", and talented Business Analysts that lacked the
ability to translate "Businessese" into "Computerese". Without good
conduits of communication, so much time is wasted and the end product
not being what was intended.
>Perhaps it comes down to training. I doubt many programmers would be
>willing to go back and spend 4+ years
>learning the intricacies of engineering principles (most haven't even a
>clue about numerical methods).
>This cannot be picked up on the job. But anyone with an engineering
>background can learn to program
>(and does, e.g., one semester of Fortran). The problem is that many of them
>think they're good at it.
>
Agreed.
[Business spectrum perspective]. Training, and re-training. Some
veterans learn how to write code in a certain fashion, and/or work
tasks in a certain way. Then 10yrs go by, better programming
techniques are developed, and more efficient task processing can be
applied, but many of these people are still working and programming
like they did 10yrs ago.
>Or maybe its just caring to read a new book every now and then. I'm an
>engineer self-taught in OO, and I can run rings around most programmers.
>(Although, not of course someone like yourself who follows these
>newsgroups. If you are reading this, you are different from the majority of
>dead-fish.) P.S. This is too depressing to be a boast.
>
Probably for the most part true. But then again, I should be writing
code right now instead of posting to a newsgroup :)
Tim Oxler
TEO Computer Technologies Inc.
http://www.i1.net/~troxler
http://users.aol.com/TEOcorp
next prev parent reply other threads:[~1998-01-29 0:00 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 344+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
[not found] <199712121931.LAA25389@sirius.infonex.com>
1997-12-12 0:00 ` Which language pays most 17457 -- C++ vs. Java? Roedy Green
1997-12-17 0:00 ` Wes Groleau
1997-12-16 0:00 ` steve
1997-12-18 0:00 ` Alicia Carla Longstreet
[not found] ` <01bd0c0b$53cc1860$26db45cf@juddesk>
1997-12-17 0:00 ` steve
1997-12-18 0:00 ` Peter Seebach
1997-12-17 0:00 ` steve
1997-12-19 0:00 ` Kaz Kylheku
1997-12-17 0:00 ` steve
1997-12-22 0:00 ` Lawrence Kirby
1997-12-21 0:00 ` steve
1997-12-28 0:00 ` Lawrence Kirby
1997-12-18 0:00 ` James Giles
1997-12-17 0:00 ` steve
1997-12-19 0:00 ` James Giles
1997-12-18 0:00 ` steve
1997-12-19 0:00 ` James Giles
1997-12-18 0:00 ` steve
1997-12-19 0:00 ` James Giles
1997-12-22 0:00 ` Lawrence Kirby
1997-12-21 0:00 ` James Giles
1997-12-21 0:00 ` steve
1997-12-30 0:00 ` Chris Gray
1997-12-28 0:00 ` Lawrence Kirby
1997-12-28 0:00 ` John Winters
1997-12-30 0:00 ` paulr
1997-12-31 0:00 ` Which language pays most " arnie sherman
1997-12-30 0:00 ` Dann Corbit
1997-12-31 0:00 ` John Slaman
[not found] ` <01bd198f$4050d960$68c8b5cc@dhite.unicomp.net>
1998-01-06 0:00 ` Jedi
1998-01-10 0:00 ` Highlander Consulting
1998-01-11 0:00 ` Kaz Kylheku
1998-01-11 0:00 ` Carsten Arnholm
1998-01-15 0:00 ` Highlander Consulting
1998-01-16 0:00 ` Charles F Hankel
1999-08-09 0:00 ` Paul Groves
1999-08-09 0:00 ` Kaz Kylheku
1998-01-11 0:00 ` Patricia Shanahan
1998-01-11 0:00 ` Barrabazz
1998-01-11 0:00 ` Patricia Shanahan
1998-01-12 0:00 ` Ron Peterson
1998-01-14 0:00 ` anonymous
1998-01-19 0:00 ` Joe Gwinn
[not found] ` <01bd2526$66b70fa0$d6d945cf@juddesk>
1998-01-23 0:00 ` dnns
1998-01-23 0:00 ` Philosophers Nick Roberts
1998-01-23 0:00 ` Spam--> was:Re: Philosophers Dann Corbit
1998-01-24 0:00 ` Nick Roberts
1998-01-26 0:00 ` Doug Miller
1998-01-24 0:00 ` Philosophers Mike Whiten
1998-01-24 0:00 ` Philosophers The Goobers
1998-01-25 0:00 ` Philosophers Arnold Trembley
1998-01-25 0:00 ` Philosophers The Goobers
1998-01-26 0:00 ` :-) Philosophers Giovanni Drogo [drogo@rn.bastiani.it]
1998-01-29 0:00 ` Philosophers Steve Dekorte
1998-01-29 0:00 ` Philosophers The Goobers
1998-01-24 0:00 ` Philosophers John G.
[not found] ` <Pine.LNX.3.95. <34cd2808.10685219@newsroom.tassie.net.au>
1998-01-28 0:00 ` Philosophers docdwarf
[not found] ` <01bd2c40$b62837a0$7261b693@HP5079Q>
1998-01-28 0:00 ` Philosophers The Goobers
1998-02-01 0:00 ` Philosophers Scott Adams
[not found] ` <01bd2cc0$f0042b70$7261b693@HP5079Q>
1998-02-04 0:00 ` Philosophers The Goobers
1998-02-10 0:00 ` Back to the topic of CS students. (was Re: Philosophers) cyanide
1998-02-10 0:00 ` Nick Roberts
1998-01-30 0:00 ` Philosophers jim
1998-01-30 0:00 ` Philosophers Samuel Mize
1998-01-30 0:00 ` Philosophers docdwarf
1998-01-30 0:00 ` Philosophers suzie
1998-01-30 0:00 ` Philosophers docdwarf
1998-01-31 0:00 ` Philosophers Martin Richardson
1998-01-31 0:00 ` Philosophers Jeff York
1998-02-01 0:00 ` Philosophers Martin Richardson
1998-02-02 0:00 ` Philosophers Jeff York
1998-02-02 0:00 ` Philosophers Eddie Armstrong
1998-02-03 0:00 ` Philosophers Nyk Tarr
1998-02-02 0:00 ` Philosophers Pat O'Connell
1998-02-02 0:00 ` Philosophers Robert Garskof
1998-02-02 0:00 ` Philosophers Dave Tholen
1998-02-10 0:00 ` Philosophers cyanide
1998-02-09 0:00 ` Philosophers The Goobers
1998-02-18 0:00 ` Philosophers Mad Hamish
1999-07-29 0:00 ` Philosophers firewind
1998-01-24 0:00 ` Philosophers John G.
1998-02-10 0:00 ` Drifting further off topic cyanide
1998-01-25 0:00 ` Philosophers Jens Schweikhardt
1998-01-28 0:00 ` Philosophers Mad Hamish
1998-01-27 0:00 ` Philosophers Kurt Wall
1998-01-27 0:00 ` Which language pays most -- C++ vs. Java? Robert Garskof
1998-01-28 0:00 ` Steve Dekorte
1998-01-28 0:00 ` Barrabazz
1998-01-28 0:00 ` dogmat
1998-01-29 0:00 ` Tim Oxler
1998-01-29 0:00 ` Tim Oxler [this message]
1998-01-29 0:00 ` Joe Gwinn
1998-01-29 0:00 ` coryb
1998-01-29 0:00 ` Wayne L. Beavers
1998-01-29 0:00 ` Frank A. Adrian
1998-02-03 0:00 ` GLE
1998-02-03 0:00 ` The Goobers
1998-02-03 0:00 ` Harold Stevens ** PLEASE SEE SIG **
1998-01-30 0:00 ` Robert S. White
1998-01-30 0:00 ` Patricia Shanahan
1998-01-31 0:00 ` Paul Van Bellinghen
1998-02-01 0:00 ` Nick Roberts
1998-02-09 0:00 ` cyanide
1998-02-10 0:00 ` Bill Lynch
1998-02-10 0:00 ` Michael Rot13 Klein
1998-02-10 0:00 ` Jeff Knaggs
1998-02-10 0:00 ` dogmat
1998-02-09 0:00 ` cyanide
1998-02-10 0:00 ` dogmat
1999-07-29 0:00 ` Edwin Purvee
[not found] ` <01bd2c3c$6726d520$8101b8c7@MIS-RKW95.spartan.com>
1998-02-10 0:00 ` Steve Dekorte
1998-02-10 0:00 ` Bill Lynch
1998-02-11 0:00 ` dogmat
1998-01-29 0:00 ` Joe Gwinn
1998-01-31 0:00 ` Larry Wiggins
1999-07-29 0:00 ` Ben Pfaff
1999-07-29 0:00 ` Kaz Kylheku
1998-02-02 0:00 ` This thread has drifted miles from its subject line Wes Groleau
[not found] ` <6alu5l$onm$1@owl.slip <01bd2c3c$6726d520$8101b8c7@MIS-RKW95.spartan.com>
1998-02-02 0:00 ` Which language pays most -- C++ vs. Java? Kaz Kylheku
1998-02-02 0:00 ` Michael C. Kasten
[not found] ` <6alu5l$ <34D6243C.2A53@gc057.fw.hac.com>
1998-02-05 0:00 ` This thread has drifted miles from its subject line Paul Osborn
[not found] ` <6alu5l$onm$1@owl.slip <34E0D798.E29D6CA0@cableol.co.uk>
1998-02-11 0:00 ` Which language pays most -- C++ vs. Java? Kaz Kylheku
[not found] ` <gwinn-1901981219520001@dh5055142. <01bd284c$4b0b4fe0$c0f682c1@xhv46.dial.pipex.com>
1998-01-24 0:00 ` Philosophers Kaz Kylheku
[not found] ` <gwinn-1901981219520001@dh5055142. <34CE059C.634DE881@snet.com>
1998-01-27 0:00 ` Which language pays most -- C++ vs. Java? Kaz Kylheku
1998-01-28 0:00 ` Robert Garskof
[not found] ` <gwinn-1901981219520001@dh5055142. <34C9F3D0.6B5A@erols.com>
1998-01-28 0:00 ` Philosophers Warren B. Focke
1998-01-29 0:00 ` Philosophers The Goobers
1998-02-05 0:00 ` Philosophers Warren B. Focke
1998-02-05 0:00 ` Philosophers The Goobers
1998-02-06 0:00 ` Philosophers dogmat
1998-02-06 0:00 ` Philosophers docdwarf
1998-02-06 0:00 ` Philosophers dogmat
1998-02-06 0:00 ` Philosophers docdwarf
1998-02-06 0:00 ` Philosophers Harold Stevens ** PLEASE SEE SIG **
1998-02-10 0:00 ` Film "Contact" Nick Roberts
1998-02-09 0:00 ` Which language pays most -- C++ vs. Java? cyanide
1998-01-02 0:00 ` Philip Hunt
1997-12-31 0:00 ` Which language pays most 17457 " Guillermo Schwarz
1997-12-31 0:00 ` Billy Chambless
1998-01-03 0:00 ` Berna L Massingill
1998-01-04 0:00 ` Lawrence Kirby
1997-12-19 0:00 ` Peter Seebach
1997-12-19 0:00 ` James Giles
1997-12-18 0:00 ` steve
1997-12-23 0:00 ` Guillermo Schwarz
1997-12-17 0:00 ` steve
1997-12-19 0:00 ` Larry Elmore
1997-12-19 0:00 ` James Giles
1997-12-18 0:00 ` John Seitz
1997-12-18 0:00 ` Robert Robbins
1997-12-19 0:00 ` Mark Wilden
1997-12-19 0:00 ` Ian Upright
1997-12-19 0:00 ` William Murray
1997-12-19 0:00 ` steve
1997-12-20 0:00 ` Robert Munck
1997-12-19 0:00 ` Chip Ling
1997-12-17 0:00 ` James Giles
[not found] ` <349793cb.33600861@news.wxs.nl>
[not found] ` <34923264.75B5@netup.cl>
[not found] ` <670qio$8a$1@sparcserver.lrz-muenchen.de>
[not found] ` <3494B7DA.5463@ici.net>
[not found] ` <34958D16.190C@gsg.eds.com>
[not found] ` <679807$8gm@ws1.emirates.net.ae>
[not found] ` <e9k976.8h3.ln@localhost>
1997-12-18 0:00 ` Klaus-Georg Adams
[not found] ` <67bjnv$j35$1@brie.direct.ca>
[not found] ` <349B0417.D4DB6A30@its.cl>
1997-12-20 0:00 ` Kaz Kylheku
1997-12-20 0:00 ` William J. Leary Jr.
1997-12-20 0:00 ` Kurt Watzka
1997-12-20 0:00 ` William J. Leary Jr.
1997-12-21 0:00 ` Peter Seebach
1997-12-21 0:00 ` Peter Seebach
1997-12-21 0:00 ` William J. Leary Jr.
1997-12-22 0:00 ` Peter Seebach
1997-12-22 0:00 ` Lawrence Kirby
1997-12-22 0:00 ` Kaz Kylheku
1997-12-22 0:00 ` Kurt Watzka
1997-12-28 0:00 ` Lawrence Kirby
1997-12-24 0:00 ` John Porter
1997-12-24 0:00 ` Kaz Kylheku
1997-12-27 0:00 ` Which language pays most? Smalltalk, not C++ nor Java Guillermo Schwarz
1997-12-27 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1997-12-29 0:00 ` John Porter
1997-12-29 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
[not found] ` <01bd14b4$dc6f6a80$6428b4cf@carla.ici.net>
1997-12-29 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1997-12-30 0:00 ` Billy Chambless
1997-12-31 0:00 ` David Thornley
1997-12-31 0:00 ` Keith G. Murphy
1998-01-01 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1998-01-01 0:00 ` Patricia Shanahan
1998-01-02 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1998-01-02 0:00 ` Peter Seebach
1998-01-02 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1998-01-02 0:00 ` firewind
1998-01-02 0:00 ` Ian Piumarta
1998-01-03 0:00 ` Richard Kenner
1998-01-02 0:00 ` Shelly Mujtaba
1998-01-02 0:00 ` Guillermo Schwarz
1998-01-03 0:00 ` Jacqueline U. Robertson
1998-01-03 0:00 ` Dean Roddey
1998-01-03 0:00 ` Jacqueline U. Robertson
1998-01-03 0:00 ` Dean Roddey
1998-01-05 0:00 ` Guillermo Schwarz
1998-01-05 0:00 ` Kaz Kylheku
1998-01-03 0:00 ` Lawrence Kirby
1997-12-29 0:00 ` Kaz Kylheku
1997-12-29 0:00 ` Lawrence Kirby
[not found] ` <01bd147e$11496760$6a28b4cf@carla.ici.net>
1997-12-29 0:00 ` Billy Chambless
1997-12-30 0:00 ` Jeffrey Templon
1997-12-30 0:00 ` Patricia Shanahan
1997-12-30 0:00 ` Charles R Martin
1998-01-03 0:00 ` Lawrence Kirby
1997-12-29 0:00 ` Patricia Shanahan
1998-01-28 0:00 ` SmallTalk Execute files Thaminda Erangane Perera
1998-01-28 0:00 ` Dann Corbit
1998-01-29 0:00 ` Griff Lewis
1997-12-27 0:00 ` Which language pays most? Smalltalk, not C++ nor Java Patricia Shanahan
1997-12-27 0:00 ` Joshua Waxman
1997-12-28 0:00 ` Kurt Watzka
1997-12-29 0:00 ` Kaz Kylheku
1997-12-29 0:00 ` Guillermo Schwarz
1997-12-29 0:00 ` Kaz Kylheku
1997-12-30 0:00 ` Joshua Waxman
1997-12-30 0:00 ` Kaz Kylheku
1997-12-30 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1997-12-30 0:00 ` Dann Corbit
1997-12-31 0:00 ` David Thornley
1997-12-31 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1997-12-31 0:00 ` John Porter
1997-12-31 0:00 ` Jon S Anthony
1998-01-02 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1997-12-30 0:00 ` Joshua Waxman
1997-12-30 0:00 ` firewind
1997-12-30 0:00 ` Joshua Waxman
1997-12-31 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1997-12-31 0:00 ` Brock
1997-12-31 0:00 ` Joshua Waxman
1997-12-31 0:00 ` Dann Corbit
1998-01-01 0:00 ` firewind
1997-12-30 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1997-12-30 0:00 ` Kaz Kylheku
1997-12-30 0:00 ` Kaz Kylheku
1997-12-30 0:00 ` Lawrence Kirby
1997-12-30 0:00 ` Patricia Shanahan
1998-01-03 0:00 ` Lawrence Kirby
1998-01-03 0:00 ` Patricia Shanahan
1997-12-30 0:00 ` Billy Chambless
1997-12-29 0:00 ` Kaz Kylheku
1998-01-02 0:00 ` Tor Iver Wilhelmsen
1997-12-25 0:00 ` Which language pays most 17457 -- C++ vs. Java? Kurt Watzka
1997-12-19 0:00 ` Quowong P Liu
1997-12-19 0:00 ` William J. Leary Jr.
1997-12-24 0:00 ` Richard D Riehle
1998-01-30 0:00 Which language pays most " scott
1998-01-30 0:00 ` James Giles
1998-01-30 0:00 ` Charles W. Hall
1998-01-30 0:00 ` Kaz Kylheku
1998-01-30 0:00 ` Art/Jeannie Daly
1998-01-30 0:00 ` Jahfre
1998-02-02 0:00 ` Ian Chivers
1999-07-29 0:00 ` Edwin Purvee
1999-07-30 0:00 ` Kaz Kylheku
1999-07-30 0:00 ` Paul Mesken
1998-02-18 0:00 ` Mad Hamish
1998-02-17 0:00 ` Dennis Weldy
1998-02-18 0:00 ` mei
1998-02-18 0:00 ` Charles W. Hall
1998-02-19 0:00 ` Rennie Allen
1998-02-10 0:00 ` Graham Broadbridge
1998-02-10 0:00 ` dogmat
1998-02-11 0:00 ` Richard Kenner
1998-02-11 0:00 ` The Goobers
1998-02-11 0:00 ` Frank A. Adrian
1998-02-12 0:00 ` Peter Hermann
1998-02-12 0:00 ` docdwarf
1998-02-12 0:00 ` Frank A. Adrian
1998-02-12 0:00 ` docdwarf
1998-02-12 0:00 ` Frank A. Adrian
1998-02-12 0:00 ` docdwarf
1998-02-12 0:00 ` dogmat
1998-02-13 0:00 ` Ethics Gradient
1998-02-13 0:00 ` Steven B Mohler
1998-02-18 0:00 ` Mad Hamish
1998-02-14 0:00 ` Richard Kenner
1998-02-14 0:00 ` The Goobers
1998-02-13 0:00 ` Ethics Gradient
1998-02-15 0:00 ` Flaagg
1998-02-16 0:00 ` The Goobers
1998-02-16 0:00 ` Flaagg
1998-02-16 0:00 ` The Goobers
1998-02-17 0:00 ` Flaagg
1998-02-17 0:00 ` The Goobers
1998-02-17 0:00 ` Anthony Jenkins
1998-02-18 0:00 ` Sakurambo
1998-02-19 0:00 ` Dave Hillstrom
1998-02-19 0:00 ` Vinay Mutha
1998-02-20 0:00 ` WeeSaul
1998-02-21 0:00 ` Sakurambo
1998-02-21 0:00 ` The Goobers
1998-02-16 0:00 ` WeeSaul
1998-02-13 0:00 ` Steven B Mohler
1998-02-14 0:00 ` The Goobers
1998-02-13 0:00 ` Ethics Gradient
1998-02-19 0:00 ` Paulo Pena
1998-02-19 0:00 ` Dik T. Winter
1998-02-19 0:00 ` D J Mann
1998-02-19 0:00 ` Harold Stevens ** PLEASE SEE SIG **
1998-02-19 0:00 ` Kaz Kylheku
[not found] ` <6cigl4$m11@news.Hawaii.Edu>
1998-02-20 0:00 ` Paul Stevenson
1998-02-20 0:00 ` The Goobers
1998-03-02 0:00 ` Mailuser
1998-02-12 0:00 ` Eric Clayberg
1998-02-11 0:00 ` Dietmar Stumpe
1998-02-11 0:00 ` Patricia Shanahan
1998-02-12 0:00 ` Michael Entwistle
1998-02-12 0:00 ` docdwarf
1998-02-12 0:00 ` Chris Gray
1998-02-12 0:00 ` docdwarf
1998-02-12 0:00 ` Michael Rubenstein
1998-02-12 0:00 ` James Giles
1998-02-12 0:00 ` Michael Rubenstein
1998-02-12 0:00 ` James Giles
1998-02-13 0:00 ` Michael Rubenstein
1998-02-13 0:00 ` Benz
1998-02-13 0:00 ` James Giles
1998-02-17 0:00 ` K. C. Putnam
1998-02-17 0:00 ` gypsy
1998-02-12 0:00 ` docdwarf
1998-02-12 0:00 ` Michael Rubenstein
1998-02-12 0:00 ` The Goobers
1998-02-13 0:00 ` Tor Iver Wilhelmsen
1998-02-12 0:00 ` Stephen Taylor
1998-02-12 0:00 ` John W. Lewellen
1998-02-12 0:00 ` docdwarf
[not found] ` <01bd37cf$fa30c4e0$56dacdcf@ms112188.mindspring.com>
1998-02-12 0:00 ` docdwarf
1998-02-12 0:00 ` Michael Rot13 Klein
1998-02-12 0:00 ` The Goobers
1998-02-12 0:00 ` Will Rose
1998-02-12 0:00 ` docdwarf
[not found] ` <01bd3803$441d4c30$ee6de288@ato-10098>
1998-02-13 0:00 ` The Goobers
1998-02-13 0:00 ` Jeff York
1998-02-13 0:00 ` docdwarf
1998-02-13 0:00 ` M.L. Scott
1998-02-13 0:00 ` The Goobers
1998-02-16 0:00 ` tgg
1998-02-16 0:00 ` The Goobers
1998-02-16 0:00 ` tgg
1998-02-16 0:00 ` The Goobers
1998-02-17 0:00 ` martin dowie
1998-02-14 0:00 ` cyanide
1998-02-17 0:00 ` Joseph T. Adams
1998-02-17 0:00 ` Richard Kenner
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