From: "Charles W. Hall" <charles.hall@platinum.brooks.af.mil>
Subject: Re: Which language pays most -- C++ vs. Java?
Date: 1998/02/18
Date: 1998-02-18T00:00:00+00:00 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <34EAEEB2.78A17A52@platinum.brooks.af.mil> (raw)
In-Reply-To: 34EB515B.6491@cardiff.ac.uk
mei wrote:
> Mad Hamish wrote:
> >
> > On Fri, 30 Jan 1998 13:18:45 -0600, "Charles W. Hall"
> > <charles.hall@platinum.brooks.af.mil> wrote:
> >
> > >Having worked with assembly code, operating systems internals, and
> done
> > >high level programming, I don't think it is relevant for
> programmers to
> > >know these sort of things anymore. There is no reason to program
> in
> > >assembler directly anymore except for highly specialized cases.
> >
> > For instance any massively repeated task where speed is critical.
As I pointed out, there are specialized cases where assembler is
appropriate. However,
> >
> > > The
> > >internals of generated code have nothing to do with designing a
> > >correctly running program in FORTRAN, COBOL, C, or anyother high
> level
> > >language.
> >
> > True for most cases, of course if you need to access hardware
> directly and there
> > isn't a library to do it you may be forced to use something similar
> to
> > assembler.
Yes, but if you need to access hardware directly these days, you are no
longer considered to be a high level language programmer. My comments
were intended to point out the growing differences and specializations
that have developed in the computer industry.
> >
> > > The operating system software is designed by experts to
> > >properly handle the compiled code and to perform tasks as paging,
> > >swapping, and scheduling.
> >
> > Seen windows recently <g>
<Grin>. I said designed by experts-- the implementation can leave a lot
to be desired. I had systems such as IBM's MVS and Digital's OpenVMS in
mind--where teams of trained professionals have been working years to
optimize the operating system. Microsoft Windows in nowhere near as
good nor as clean an implementation, but it still provides these
functions.
> >
> > > These are not the domain of the programmer.
> >
> > who shaved the barber?
>
I shave myself and that doesn't make me a barber.<grin> What's been
happenning is a redefinition of terms as the industry grows more
specialized. I would no longer class anyone who works on O.S.
internals as a "programmer" as that term has become so generic as to be
almost meaningless. Software engineer would seem to be appropriate,
although the mechanical engineers I know have some definite opinions on
us software types appropriating the word engineer.
> >
> > >Criticizing a programmer for not knowing the internals of the
> operating
> > >system is like criticizing an automobile owner for not
> understanding the
> > >internals of the car's motor. It is not necessary for successful
> > >operation of the car or computer system.
> > >
> > Wrong, criticising a _programmer_ for not knowing the
> internals is like
> > criticising a racing team for not knowing the internals.
Nope. Your reference to a racing team completely misses the point I was
trying to make. The usual programmer today does not care how an
operating system does its work, as long as it is reliable. Just as the
typical auto owner doesn't understand the inside of the engine or
transmission. He doesn't need to know--but he does need to know that if
he steps on the gas or brake they will perform as expected--and who to
contact when they don't.
> I agree with mad Hamish. Besides how could anyone not want to know hoe
> the internals
> work. That's half the fun!
What's fun to you is boring drudgery to others. I long ago stopped
assuming that all people in the computer industry think alike--and
started having more fun!!
Charles
next prev parent reply other threads:[~1998-02-18 0:00 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 156+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
1998-01-30 0:00 Which language pays most -- C++ vs. Java? scott
1998-01-30 0:00 ` Charles W. Hall
1998-01-30 0:00 ` Kaz Kylheku
1998-01-30 0:00 ` Jahfre
1998-01-30 0:00 ` Art/Jeannie Daly
1998-02-02 0:00 ` Ian Chivers
1999-07-29 0:00 ` Edwin Purvee
1999-07-30 0:00 ` Kaz Kylheku
1999-07-30 0:00 ` Paul Mesken
1998-02-18 0:00 ` Mad Hamish
1998-02-17 0:00 ` Dennis Weldy
1998-02-18 0:00 ` mei
1998-02-18 0:00 ` Charles W. Hall [this message]
1998-02-19 0:00 ` Rennie Allen
1998-01-30 0:00 ` James Giles
1998-02-10 0:00 ` Graham Broadbridge
1998-02-10 0:00 ` dogmat
1998-02-11 0:00 ` Richard Kenner
1998-02-11 0:00 ` The Goobers
1998-02-11 0:00 ` Frank A. Adrian
1998-02-12 0:00 ` docdwarf
1998-02-12 0:00 ` Frank A. Adrian
1998-02-12 0:00 ` docdwarf
1998-02-12 0:00 ` Frank A. Adrian
1998-02-12 0:00 ` docdwarf
1998-02-12 0:00 ` dogmat
1998-02-13 0:00 ` Ethics Gradient
1998-02-13 0:00 ` Steven B Mohler
1998-02-18 0:00 ` Mad Hamish
1998-02-14 0:00 ` Richard Kenner
1998-02-14 0:00 ` The Goobers
1998-02-13 0:00 ` Steven B Mohler
1998-02-14 0:00 ` The Goobers
1998-02-13 0:00 ` Ethics Gradient
1998-02-15 0:00 ` Flaagg
1998-02-16 0:00 ` The Goobers
1998-02-16 0:00 ` Flaagg
1998-02-16 0:00 ` The Goobers
1998-02-17 0:00 ` Flaagg
1998-02-17 0:00 ` The Goobers
1998-02-17 0:00 ` Anthony Jenkins
1998-02-18 0:00 ` Sakurambo
1998-02-19 0:00 ` Vinay Mutha
1998-02-20 0:00 ` WeeSaul
1998-02-21 0:00 ` Sakurambo
1998-02-21 0:00 ` The Goobers
1998-02-19 0:00 ` Dave Hillstrom
1998-02-16 0:00 ` WeeSaul
1998-02-12 0:00 ` Peter Hermann
1998-02-13 0:00 ` Ethics Gradient
1998-02-19 0:00 ` Paulo Pena
1998-02-19 0:00 ` Dik T. Winter
1998-02-19 0:00 ` D J Mann
1998-02-19 0:00 ` Harold Stevens ** PLEASE SEE SIG **
1998-02-19 0:00 ` Kaz Kylheku
[not found] ` <6cigl4$m11@news.Hawaii.Edu>
1998-02-20 0:00 ` Paul Stevenson
1998-02-20 0:00 ` The Goobers
1998-03-02 0:00 ` Mailuser
1998-02-12 0:00 ` Will Rose
1998-02-12 0:00 ` docdwarf
[not found] ` <01bd3803$441d4c30$ee6de288@ato-10098>
1998-02-13 0:00 ` Jeff York
1998-02-13 0:00 ` docdwarf
1998-02-13 0:00 ` M.L. Scott
1998-02-13 0:00 ` The Goobers
1998-02-13 0:00 ` The Goobers
1998-02-16 0:00 ` tgg
1998-02-16 0:00 ` The Goobers
1998-02-16 0:00 ` tgg
1998-02-16 0:00 ` The Goobers
1998-02-17 0:00 ` martin dowie
1998-02-12 0:00 ` Eric Clayberg
1998-02-11 0:00 ` Dietmar Stumpe
1998-02-11 0:00 ` Patricia Shanahan
1998-02-12 0:00 ` Chris Gray
1998-02-12 0:00 ` Michael Entwistle
1998-02-12 0:00 ` docdwarf
1998-02-12 0:00 ` docdwarf
1998-02-12 0:00 ` Michael Rubenstein
1998-02-12 0:00 ` James Giles
1998-02-12 0:00 ` Michael Rubenstein
1998-02-12 0:00 ` James Giles
1998-02-13 0:00 ` Michael Rubenstein
1998-02-13 0:00 ` Benz
1998-02-13 0:00 ` James Giles
1998-02-17 0:00 ` K. C. Putnam
1998-02-17 0:00 ` gypsy
1998-02-12 0:00 ` docdwarf
1998-02-12 0:00 ` Michael Rubenstein
1998-02-12 0:00 ` The Goobers
1998-02-13 0:00 ` Tor Iver Wilhelmsen
1998-02-12 0:00 ` Stephen Taylor
1998-02-12 0:00 ` John W. Lewellen
1998-02-12 0:00 ` docdwarf
[not found] ` <01bd37cf$fa30c4e0$56dacdcf@ms112188.mindspring.com>
1998-02-12 0:00 ` docdwarf
1998-02-12 0:00 ` Michael Rot13 Klein
1998-02-12 0:00 ` The Goobers
1998-02-14 0:00 ` cyanide
1998-02-17 0:00 ` Joseph T. Adams
1998-02-17 0:00 ` Richard Kenner
-- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
1997-12-19 0:00 Which language pays most 17457 " James Giles
1997-12-22 0:00 ` Lawrence Kirby
1997-12-21 0:00 ` James Giles
1997-12-28 0:00 ` Lawrence Kirby
1997-12-30 0:00 ` paulr
1997-12-31 0:00 ` Which language pays most " arnie sherman
1997-12-30 0:00 ` Dann Corbit
1997-12-31 0:00 ` John Slaman
[not found] ` <01bd198f$4050d960$68c8b5cc@dhite.unicomp.net>
1998-01-06 0:00 ` Jedi
1998-01-10 0:00 ` Highlander Consulting
1998-01-11 0:00 ` Kaz Kylheku
1998-01-11 0:00 ` Carsten Arnholm
1998-01-15 0:00 ` Highlander Consulting
1998-01-16 0:00 ` Charles F Hankel
1999-08-09 0:00 ` Paul Groves
1999-08-09 0:00 ` Kaz Kylheku
1998-01-11 0:00 ` Patricia Shanahan
1998-01-11 0:00 ` Barrabazz
1998-01-11 0:00 ` Patricia Shanahan
1998-01-12 0:00 ` Ron Peterson
1998-01-14 0:00 ` anonymous
1998-01-19 0:00 ` Joe Gwinn
[not found] ` <01bd2526$66b70fa0$d6d945cf@juddesk>
1998-01-23 0:00 ` dnns
1998-01-27 0:00 ` Robert Garskof
1998-01-28 0:00 ` Steve Dekorte
1998-01-28 0:00 ` Barrabazz
1998-01-28 0:00 ` dogmat
1998-01-29 0:00 ` Tim Oxler
1998-01-29 0:00 ` Tim Oxler
1998-01-29 0:00 ` Joe Gwinn
1998-01-29 0:00 ` coryb
1998-01-29 0:00 ` Wayne L. Beavers
1998-01-29 0:00 ` Frank A. Adrian
1998-02-03 0:00 ` GLE
1998-02-03 0:00 ` Harold Stevens ** PLEASE SEE SIG **
1998-02-03 0:00 ` The Goobers
1998-01-30 0:00 ` Robert S. White
1998-01-30 0:00 ` Patricia Shanahan
1998-01-31 0:00 ` Paul Van Bellinghen
1998-02-01 0:00 ` Nick Roberts
1998-02-09 0:00 ` cyanide
1998-02-10 0:00 ` Bill Lynch
1998-02-10 0:00 ` Jeff Knaggs
1998-02-10 0:00 ` Michael Rot13 Klein
1998-02-10 0:00 ` dogmat
1998-02-09 0:00 ` cyanide
1998-02-10 0:00 ` dogmat
1999-07-29 0:00 ` Edwin Purvee
[not found] ` <01bd2c3c$6726d520$8101b8c7@MIS-RKW95.spartan.com>
1998-02-10 0:00 ` Steve Dekorte
1998-02-10 0:00 ` Bill Lynch
1998-02-11 0:00 ` dogmat
1998-01-29 0:00 ` Joe Gwinn
1998-01-31 0:00 ` Larry Wiggins
1999-07-29 0:00 ` Ben Pfaff
1999-07-29 0:00 ` Kaz Kylheku
[not found] ` <6alu5l$onm$1@owl.slip <01bd2c3c$6726d520$8101b8c7@MIS-RKW95.spartan.com>
1998-02-02 0:00 ` Kaz Kylheku
1998-02-02 0:00 ` Michael C. Kasten
[not found] ` <6alu5l$onm$1@owl.slip <34E0D798.E29D6CA0@cableol.co.uk>
1998-02-11 0:00 ` Kaz Kylheku
[not found] ` <gwinn-1901981219520001@dh5055142. <34CE059C.634DE881@snet.com>
1998-01-27 0:00 ` Kaz Kylheku
1998-01-28 0:00 ` Robert Garskof
1998-02-09 0:00 ` cyanide
1998-01-02 0:00 ` Philip Hunt
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