From: steve <steve@seasoned-software.com>
To: James Giles <jamesgiles@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Which language pays most 17457 -- C++ vs. Java?
Date: 1997/12/21
Date: 1997-12-21T00:00:00+00:00 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <349D4E8A.1FECCCA1@seasoned-software.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: 67ktrg$ibk@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 6625 bytes --]
James Giles wrote:
> Lawrence Kirby wrote in message <882757510snz@genesis.demon.co.uk>...
> >In article <67et6o$dql@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net>
> > jamesgiles@worldnet.att.net "James Giles" writes:
> ...
> >>Exactly what I said. Bill Gates (Slick Willie West) has learned his
> >>lessons well. He'd never have got away with it if UNIX hadn't set the
> >>stage.
> >
> >The "stage" at the time for the development of DOS was CP/M. Windows was
> >an attempt to counter the Mac. NT is greatly influenced by VMS. Unix
> >has very little relevance here.
>
> On the contrary. The stage was the choice between, first CP/M
> and then DOS on the one hand
DOS 1.0 was CP/M 86 from seattle microworks(a workalike to CP/M from digital
research)! They were basically the SAME THING!!!!!!
> , or to buy a mini (or later, a workstation)
> and run UNIX (probably with several terminals and users per UNIX machine
> if you bought the mini). That was the percieved choice of business users
> circa 1980.
WRONG! The average business couldn't consider UNIX! WHY? Because it was
harder to use, had fewer reasonably priced(and easy to get) programs, and few
even knew about it! GIVE ME A BREAK! ALSO, UNIX was made to run under larger
systems. It couldn't run well under the 8086 system until they got MMUs! The
FIRST 8086 with an MMU was the 80386! SURE, some companies tried to make it run
on the 286, and some even did things earlier, but the were effectively toys!
> DOS only succeeded because people percieved UNIX as the
> other choice.
YEAH RIGHT! Like the average business would have spent over 10 times as much
for software if they respected UNIX, and even KNEW about it? Dream on!
> They did not see that UNIX provided better performance (for
> the money), or that is was more reliable - which it wasn't at the time.
UNIX COULDN'T be more reliable! UNIX is a full blown operating system with
security, networking, message passing, multitasking, multiuser, etc.....
DOS was merely a Disk Operating System! Almost NONE of the above. Try getting
DOS to multitask! MOST of the products(such as desqview) made it LESS reliable
than UNIX, and it didn't do much of the other stuff UNIX does.
> Indeed, one of the problems is that most businesses had to hire additional
> personel to support UNIX but not DOS.
> I remember this because I was there. I was rather amused by the
> debate at the time because it didn't have much to do with me: at
> work I used mainframes (which no one in those days would have
> suggested using UNIX on) and at home I was a hobbyist without
> the means to buy either a mini or a high-cost workstation.
Well, UNIX is now running on almost every machine! IBM RS/6000 and DEC ALPHAs
BOTH run UNIX! With IBM, it is first choice. With The alpha, it might be
second to NT!
> A few
> years later I had a SUN on my desk at work though (can't say I was
> impressed, but it did have a really big screen).
It will only impress the one that uses the features. It's made to get the job
done and done well, not to impress.
> >Whether you believe it is adequate or not Unix has a security system
> >built in, it is a significant issue in the OS. If BG learnt anything
> >from Unix it would have been that security is an issue. Clearly he
> >didn't. I apologise for getting drawn into this troll.
Well, DOS was clearly NOT a UNIX replacement.
> To be sure, UNIX has better security than DOS and Windows (which have
> none at all) but it's not really very secure.
Try breaking into most UNIX systems. It isn't that easy. MOST security
problems are due to common problems in peripheral programs.
> In any case, when I mentioned
> security as a desirable asset, I had in mind comparing the system to
> other multi-user systems. Only one UNIX implementation I've ever heard
> of met Orange Book category B requirements (at the lowest level of
> category B and only with enormous changes to how it did security).
> Systems exist (or used to, before the UNIX revolution) which meet
> category B and impose less of a burden on users in terms of confusion
> and maintenence than UNIX security does.
Actually, there ARE some very secure systems that meet the highest security
levels.
And hell, I'm only in this discussion because I got drawn in by someone's
> *defence* of UNIX which said that I should somehow expect systems
> software to be *less* reliable than other kinds of software. What kind of
> a defense is that? Certainly any reasonable person disagrees with that
> assessment (including the person who originally said it).
That's right, blame me. I said more PRONE. Obviously, most people want to work
the kinks aout BEFORE anyone sees them. ALSO, it is more complicated. SCO
STILL has problems with some pretty basic code. I ALSO always state that I have
NEVER had my linux system crash unexpectedly. It RARELY crashes! BTW, it
crashes LESS than my first DOS system did! That first dos system would crash
because of some bad third party code, or because I found a problem in debugging
my code. Linux doesn't have that problem!...
> > [...] The ratio of installed systems to system
> >>maintenence personel should be about the same as the ratio
> >>of vehicles on the road to the number of auto mechanics: 500 to
> >>1000 (or higher).
> >
> >What systems are you aware of that have this sort of ratio (and I mean
> >systems that service user applications, not things like embedded systems)?
>
>
<diatribe snipped>
> I'm not saying that security never introduces a burden on the user,
> but it is possible to design a security system that is less burdensome
> than what UNIX has and yet is more secure.
If it is "less burdensome", it will have less, and can be more secure. You
can do that with UNIX!
> Finally, I don't understand why everyone is in such vehement opposition to
> me on this. Even if you *don't* believe that there have been better systems
> than UNIX in the past, you must admit that UNIX is *NOT* perfect; that ideas
> for improved systems ought to be pursued; that among these ideas, what I've
> described *might* have merit. The only people I can think of who'd actually
> oppose a more reliable and more secure system are those whose jobs are
> to maintain the existing ones.
ACTUALLY, UNIX is a GREAT kernel! It has evolved GREATLY over the years. Why
change commands, and rewrite WORKING code, to satisfy your requests?
> Well, argue it out among yourselves and Happy Holidays. I'm
> leaving and probably will not see another round of this "discuss it among
> yourselves"
>
>
> --
> J. Giles
> Ricercar Software
[-- Attachment #2: Card for steve --]
[-- Type: text/x-vcard, Size: 265 bytes --]
begin: vcard
fn: steve
n: ;steve
org: SEASONED SOFTWARE
email;internet: steve@seasoned-software.com
note: notes would be here!
x-mozilla-cpt: ;0
x-mozilla-html: TRUE
version: 2.1
end: vcard
next prev parent reply other threads:[~1997-12-21 0:00 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 245+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
[not found] <199712121931.LAA25389@sirius.infonex.com>
1997-12-12 0:00 ` Which language pays most 17457 -- C++ vs. Java? Roedy Green
1997-12-17 0:00 ` Wes Groleau
1997-12-16 0:00 ` steve
1997-12-18 0:00 ` Alicia Carla Longstreet
1997-12-17 0:00 ` steve
1997-12-19 0:00 ` Larry Elmore
1997-12-19 0:00 ` James Giles
[not found] ` <01bd0c0b$53cc1860$26db45cf@juddesk>
1997-12-17 0:00 ` steve
1997-12-18 0:00 ` Peter Seebach
1997-12-17 0:00 ` steve
1997-12-19 0:00 ` Kaz Kylheku
1997-12-17 0:00 ` steve
1997-12-22 0:00 ` Lawrence Kirby
1997-12-21 0:00 ` steve
1997-12-28 0:00 ` Lawrence Kirby
1997-12-18 0:00 ` James Giles
1997-12-17 0:00 ` steve
1997-12-19 0:00 ` James Giles
1997-12-18 0:00 ` steve
1997-12-19 0:00 ` James Giles
1997-12-18 0:00 ` steve
1997-12-19 0:00 ` James Giles
1997-12-22 0:00 ` Lawrence Kirby
1997-12-21 0:00 ` James Giles
1997-12-21 0:00 ` steve [this message]
1997-12-30 0:00 ` Chris Gray
1997-12-28 0:00 ` Lawrence Kirby
1997-12-28 0:00 ` John Winters
1997-12-30 0:00 ` paulr
1997-12-31 0:00 ` Which language pays most " arnie sherman
1997-12-30 0:00 ` Dann Corbit
1997-12-31 0:00 ` John Slaman
[not found] ` <01bd198f$4050d960$68c8b5cc@dhite.unicomp.net>
1998-01-06 0:00 ` Jedi
1998-01-10 0:00 ` Highlander Consulting
1998-01-11 0:00 ` Patricia Shanahan
1998-01-11 0:00 ` Barrabazz
1998-01-11 0:00 ` Patricia Shanahan
1998-01-12 0:00 ` Ron Peterson
1998-01-14 0:00 ` anonymous
1998-01-19 0:00 ` Joe Gwinn
[not found] ` <01bd2526$66b70fa0$d6d945cf@juddesk>
1998-01-23 0:00 ` dnns
1998-01-23 0:00 ` Philosophers Nick Roberts
1998-01-23 0:00 ` Spam--> was:Re: Philosophers Dann Corbit
1998-01-24 0:00 ` Nick Roberts
1998-01-26 0:00 ` Doug Miller
1998-01-24 0:00 ` Philosophers John G.
[not found] ` <Pine.LNX.3.95. <34cd2808.10685219@newsroom.tassie.net.au>
1998-01-28 0:00 ` Philosophers docdwarf
[not found] ` <01bd2c40$b62837a0$7261b693@HP5079Q>
1998-01-28 0:00 ` Philosophers The Goobers
1998-02-01 0:00 ` Philosophers Scott Adams
[not found] ` <01bd2cc0$f0042b70$7261b693@HP5079Q>
1998-02-04 0:00 ` Philosophers The Goobers
1998-02-10 0:00 ` Back to the topic of CS students. (was Re: Philosophers) cyanide
1998-02-10 0:00 ` Nick Roberts
1998-01-30 0:00 ` Philosophers jim
1998-01-30 0:00 ` Philosophers docdwarf
1998-01-30 0:00 ` Philosophers suzie
1998-01-30 0:00 ` Philosophers docdwarf
1998-01-31 0:00 ` Philosophers Martin Richardson
1998-01-31 0:00 ` Philosophers Jeff York
1998-02-01 0:00 ` Philosophers Martin Richardson
1998-02-02 0:00 ` Philosophers Jeff York
1998-02-02 0:00 ` Philosophers Eddie Armstrong
1998-02-03 0:00 ` Philosophers Nyk Tarr
1998-02-02 0:00 ` Philosophers Pat O'Connell
1998-02-02 0:00 ` Philosophers Robert Garskof
1998-02-02 0:00 ` Philosophers Dave Tholen
1998-01-30 0:00 ` Philosophers Samuel Mize
1998-02-10 0:00 ` Philosophers cyanide
1998-02-09 0:00 ` Philosophers The Goobers
1998-02-18 0:00 ` Philosophers Mad Hamish
1999-07-29 0:00 ` Philosophers firewind
1998-01-24 0:00 ` Philosophers John G.
1998-02-10 0:00 ` Drifting further off topic cyanide
1998-01-25 0:00 ` Philosophers Jens Schweikhardt
1998-01-28 0:00 ` Philosophers Mad Hamish
1998-01-27 0:00 ` Philosophers Kurt Wall
1998-01-24 0:00 ` Philosophers Mike Whiten
1998-01-24 0:00 ` Philosophers The Goobers
1998-01-25 0:00 ` Philosophers Arnold Trembley
1998-01-25 0:00 ` Philosophers The Goobers
1998-01-26 0:00 ` :-) Philosophers Giovanni Drogo [drogo@rn.bastiani.it]
1998-01-29 0:00 ` Philosophers Steve Dekorte
1998-01-29 0:00 ` Philosophers The Goobers
1998-01-27 0:00 ` Which language pays most -- C++ vs. Java? Robert Garskof
1998-01-28 0:00 ` Steve Dekorte
1998-01-28 0:00 ` Barrabazz
1998-01-28 0:00 ` dogmat
1998-01-29 0:00 ` Tim Oxler
1998-01-29 0:00 ` Tim Oxler
1998-01-29 0:00 ` Joe Gwinn
1998-01-29 0:00 ` coryb
1998-01-29 0:00 ` Wayne L. Beavers
1998-01-29 0:00 ` Frank A. Adrian
1998-02-03 0:00 ` GLE
1998-02-03 0:00 ` The Goobers
1998-02-03 0:00 ` Harold Stevens ** PLEASE SEE SIG **
1998-01-30 0:00 ` Robert S. White
1998-01-30 0:00 ` Patricia Shanahan
1998-01-31 0:00 ` Paul Van Bellinghen
1998-02-01 0:00 ` Nick Roberts
1998-02-09 0:00 ` cyanide
1998-02-10 0:00 ` Bill Lynch
1998-02-10 0:00 ` Jeff Knaggs
1998-02-10 0:00 ` Michael Rot13 Klein
1998-02-10 0:00 ` dogmat
1998-02-09 0:00 ` cyanide
1998-02-10 0:00 ` dogmat
1999-07-29 0:00 ` Edwin Purvee
[not found] ` <01bd2c3c$6726d520$8101b8c7@MIS-RKW95.spartan.com>
1998-02-10 0:00 ` Steve Dekorte
1998-02-10 0:00 ` Bill Lynch
1998-02-11 0:00 ` dogmat
1998-01-29 0:00 ` Joe Gwinn
1998-01-31 0:00 ` Larry Wiggins
1999-07-29 0:00 ` Ben Pfaff
1999-07-29 0:00 ` Kaz Kylheku
[not found] ` <6alu5l$onm$1@owl.slip <01bd2c3c$6726d520$8101b8c7@MIS-RKW95.spartan.com>
1998-02-02 0:00 ` Kaz Kylheku
1998-02-02 0:00 ` Michael C. Kasten
1998-02-02 0:00 ` This thread has drifted miles from its subject line Wes Groleau
[not found] ` <6alu5l$ <34D6243C.2A53@gc057.fw.hac.com>
1998-02-05 0:00 ` Paul Osborn
[not found] ` <6alu5l$onm$1@owl.slip <34E0D798.E29D6CA0@cableol.co.uk>
1998-02-11 0:00 ` Which language pays most -- C++ vs. Java? Kaz Kylheku
[not found] ` <gwinn-1901981219520001@dh5055142. <01bd284c$4b0b4fe0$c0f682c1@xhv46.dial.pipex.com>
1998-01-24 0:00 ` Philosophers Kaz Kylheku
[not found] ` <gwinn-1901981219520001@dh5055142. <34CE059C.634DE881@snet.com>
1998-01-27 0:00 ` Which language pays most -- C++ vs. Java? Kaz Kylheku
1998-01-28 0:00 ` Robert Garskof
[not found] ` <gwinn-1901981219520001@dh5055142. <34C9F3D0.6B5A@erols.com>
1998-01-28 0:00 ` Philosophers Warren B. Focke
1998-01-29 0:00 ` Philosophers The Goobers
1998-02-05 0:00 ` Philosophers Warren B. Focke
1998-02-05 0:00 ` Philosophers The Goobers
1998-02-06 0:00 ` Philosophers dogmat
1998-02-06 0:00 ` Philosophers docdwarf
1998-02-06 0:00 ` Philosophers dogmat
1998-02-06 0:00 ` Philosophers docdwarf
1998-02-06 0:00 ` Philosophers Harold Stevens ** PLEASE SEE SIG **
1998-02-10 0:00 ` Film "Contact" Nick Roberts
1998-02-09 0:00 ` Which language pays most -- C++ vs. Java? cyanide
1998-01-11 0:00 ` Kaz Kylheku
1998-01-11 0:00 ` Carsten Arnholm
1998-01-15 0:00 ` Highlander Consulting
1998-01-16 0:00 ` Charles F Hankel
1999-08-09 0:00 ` Paul Groves
1999-08-09 0:00 ` Kaz Kylheku
1998-01-02 0:00 ` Philip Hunt
1997-12-31 0:00 ` Which language pays most 17457 " Guillermo Schwarz
1997-12-31 0:00 ` Billy Chambless
1998-01-03 0:00 ` Berna L Massingill
1998-01-04 0:00 ` Lawrence Kirby
1997-12-19 0:00 ` Peter Seebach
1997-12-19 0:00 ` James Giles
1997-12-18 0:00 ` steve
1997-12-23 0:00 ` Guillermo Schwarz
1997-12-18 0:00 ` John Seitz
1997-12-18 0:00 ` Robert Robbins
1997-12-19 0:00 ` Mark Wilden
1997-12-19 0:00 ` Ian Upright
1997-12-19 0:00 ` William Murray
1997-12-19 0:00 ` steve
1997-12-20 0:00 ` Robert Munck
1997-12-19 0:00 ` Chip Ling
1997-12-17 0:00 ` James Giles
[not found] ` <349793cb.33600861@news.wxs.nl>
[not found] ` <34923264.75B5@netup.cl>
[not found] ` <670qio$8a$1@sparcserver.lrz-muenchen.de>
[not found] ` <3494B7DA.5463@ici.net>
[not found] ` <34958D16.190C@gsg.eds.com>
[not found] ` <679807$8gm@ws1.emirates.net.ae>
[not found] ` <e9k976.8h3.ln@localhost>
1997-12-18 0:00 ` Klaus-Georg Adams
[not found] ` <67bjnv$j35$1@brie.direct.ca>
[not found] ` <349B0417.D4DB6A30@its.cl>
1997-12-20 0:00 ` Kaz Kylheku
1997-12-20 0:00 ` William J. Leary Jr.
1997-12-20 0:00 ` Kurt Watzka
1997-12-20 0:00 ` William J. Leary Jr.
1997-12-21 0:00 ` Peter Seebach
1997-12-21 0:00 ` Peter Seebach
1997-12-21 0:00 ` William J. Leary Jr.
1997-12-22 0:00 ` Peter Seebach
1997-12-22 0:00 ` Lawrence Kirby
1997-12-22 0:00 ` Kurt Watzka
1997-12-28 0:00 ` Lawrence Kirby
1997-12-22 0:00 ` Kaz Kylheku
1997-12-24 0:00 ` John Porter
1997-12-24 0:00 ` Kaz Kylheku
1997-12-27 0:00 ` Which language pays most? Smalltalk, not C++ nor Java Guillermo Schwarz
1997-12-27 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1997-12-29 0:00 ` John Porter
[not found] ` <01bd147e$11496760$6a28b4cf@carla.ici.net>
1997-12-29 0:00 ` Billy Chambless
1997-12-30 0:00 ` Jeffrey Templon
1997-12-30 0:00 ` Patricia Shanahan
1997-12-30 0:00 ` Charles R Martin
1998-01-03 0:00 ` Lawrence Kirby
1997-12-29 0:00 ` Patricia Shanahan
1997-12-29 0:00 ` Lawrence Kirby
1997-12-29 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
[not found] ` <01bd14b4$dc6f6a80$6428b4cf@carla.ici.net>
1997-12-29 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1997-12-30 0:00 ` Billy Chambless
1997-12-31 0:00 ` David Thornley
1997-12-31 0:00 ` Keith G. Murphy
1998-01-01 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1998-01-01 0:00 ` Patricia Shanahan
1998-01-02 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1998-01-02 0:00 ` Peter Seebach
1998-01-02 0:00 ` firewind
1998-01-02 0:00 ` Ian Piumarta
1998-01-03 0:00 ` Richard Kenner
1998-01-02 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1998-01-02 0:00 ` Shelly Mujtaba
1998-01-02 0:00 ` Guillermo Schwarz
1998-01-03 0:00 ` Dean Roddey
1998-01-03 0:00 ` Jacqueline U. Robertson
1998-01-03 0:00 ` Dean Roddey
1998-01-05 0:00 ` Guillermo Schwarz
1998-01-05 0:00 ` Kaz Kylheku
1998-01-03 0:00 ` Jacqueline U. Robertson
1998-01-03 0:00 ` Lawrence Kirby
1997-12-29 0:00 ` Kaz Kylheku
1998-01-28 0:00 ` SmallTalk Execute files Thaminda Erangane Perera
1998-01-28 0:00 ` Dann Corbit
1998-01-29 0:00 ` Griff Lewis
1997-12-27 0:00 ` Which language pays most? Smalltalk, not C++ nor Java Patricia Shanahan
1997-12-27 0:00 ` Joshua Waxman
1997-12-28 0:00 ` Kurt Watzka
1997-12-29 0:00 ` Kaz Kylheku
1997-12-29 0:00 ` Guillermo Schwarz
1997-12-29 0:00 ` Kaz Kylheku
1997-12-30 0:00 ` Joshua Waxman
1997-12-30 0:00 ` firewind
1997-12-30 0:00 ` Joshua Waxman
1997-12-31 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1997-12-31 0:00 ` Brock
1997-12-31 0:00 ` Joshua Waxman
1997-12-31 0:00 ` Dann Corbit
1998-01-01 0:00 ` firewind
1997-12-30 0:00 ` Kaz Kylheku
1997-12-30 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1997-12-30 0:00 ` Dann Corbit
1997-12-31 0:00 ` John Porter
1997-12-31 0:00 ` Jon S Anthony
1998-01-02 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1997-12-31 0:00 ` David Thornley
1997-12-31 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1997-12-30 0:00 ` Joshua Waxman
1997-12-30 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1997-12-30 0:00 ` Kaz Kylheku
1997-12-30 0:00 ` Billy Chambless
1997-12-30 0:00 ` Lawrence Kirby
1997-12-30 0:00 ` Patricia Shanahan
1998-01-03 0:00 ` Lawrence Kirby
1998-01-03 0:00 ` Patricia Shanahan
1997-12-30 0:00 ` Kaz Kylheku
1997-12-29 0:00 ` Kaz Kylheku
1998-01-02 0:00 ` Tor Iver Wilhelmsen
1997-12-25 0:00 ` Which language pays most 17457 -- C++ vs. Java? Kurt Watzka
1997-12-19 0:00 ` Quowong P Liu
1997-12-19 0:00 ` William J. Leary Jr.
1997-12-24 0:00 ` Richard D Riehle
replies disabled
This is a public inbox, see mirroring instructions
for how to clone and mirror all data and code used for this inbox