Re: The great Java showcase (re: 2nd historic mistake)

Re: The great Java showcase (re: 2nd historic mistake)

[Mark Wilden]

Ell wrote:
> 
> I am of the mind that we engineers should be finding
> out what it is people want and need.

Hear, bloody hear!

I'd add, however, that we engineers may be able to _implement_ what the
user wants better than the user. In other words, given accurate
knowledge of what their needs and wants are, we can come up with a
solution that satisfies those things which may actually be different
from what the user would suggest. 

But when it comes down to it, it doesn't matter what the user wants or
needs, or whether we take their suggestions or improve on them--all that
counts is making the user _happy_ in the long run, if for no other
reason than that they're the ones who are putting food on our tables.

Re: The great Java showcase (re: 2nd historic mistake)

[Ell]

Tim Ottinger (tottinge@dave-world.net) wrote:
: 
: Ell wrote:
: 
: > Tim Ottinger (tottinge@dave-world.net) wrote:
: > :
: > : People don't know what they want.

: > Believe me most people _do_ know what they _want_.
 
: No. Most people see a thing and then decide they want it. 

As an opening comment, the gist of what you and RMartin have to say about
this question is that you the engineers are justified in determining what
users want.  Whereas I am of the mind that we engineers should be finding
out what it is people want and need.

You are seriously delusional if you do not realize that _in general_
people know what they want.  Not that it's always best for them, but
generally they do know what they want/desire.

: > : They don't know what they need.

: > Never?  In all cases?  So only the engineers can tell us what they
: > need?
 
: Most people want freedom, compensation, respect, and autonomy. If you
: list those out for them. Otherwise, they want safety, simplicity, to be
: in comfortable situations where their consequences won't harm them, and
: a clear path to follow. Most people want both at the same time and don't
: realize that they're contradictory.

I think people are smarter than what you and RMartin give them credit for.
It is quite possible and reasonable to want contradictory things in a
certain balance or workable relationship to each other.

The pragmatists deny there is objective truth.  They want to bend things
to what _they_ see, want, or desire.  I say give users what they want!  In
most cases it's possible.

Elliott
-- 
"The domain object model is the foundation of OOD."
"We should seek out proven optimal practices and use them."
See SW Modeller vs SW Pragmatist Central: http://www.access.digex.net/~ell

Re: Make what user wants?

[Bert Bril]

Ell wrote:
> You are seriously delusional if you do not realize that _in general_
> people know what they want.  Not that it's always best for them, but
> generally they do know what they want/desire.
> 

I fully agree with this. In the environment that I work in, users most
often do know what they want. But sometimes you can show them all of the
consequences and then they may want something else.

IMO, this is one of the most common sources of problems in software
development: the communication should be two-way. The problem can be on
either side: the engineer just listens a bit and then goes off to create
unwanted stuff, the user is not interested and doesn't want to think
together about solutions.

I'm don't know whether this is valid in all environments.


[snip]
> The pragmatists deny there is objective truth.  They want to bend things
> to what _they_ see, want, or desire.

But this is a strange and needless twist in your arguments. The fact
that I believe there is no objective truth outside abstract/logical
systems does not mean I bend things to what I want. I am also able to
create models of the world that work best for the user.


Bert

-- de Groot - Bril Earth Sciences B.V.
-- Boulevard 1945 - 24, 7511 AE Enschede, The Netherlands
-- mailto:bert@dgb.nl , http://www.dgb.nl
-- Tel: +31 534315155 , Fax: +31 534315104

Re: Make what user wants?

[Rick Price]

The users may not know what they want want, but they do know what they
do, the processes they use and the results they need.  It is our job
to create (with input from the users / SMEs / clients / etc) an
application with an interface that provides an intuitive way to
accomplish the tasks that make up the processes and give them the
results they need.  Otherwise a few kids with Visual Basic could put
us all out of a job.

We give them what they want after we help them realize what is
posible.

On Wed, 17 Sep 1997 09:41:56 +0100, Bert Bril <bert@dgb.nl> wrote:

>Ell wrote:
>> You are seriously delusional if you do not realize that _in general_
>> people know what they want.  Not that it's always best for them, but
>> generally they do know what they want/desire.
>> 
>
>I fully agree with this. In the environment that I work in, users most
>often do know what they want. But sometimes you can show them all of the
>consequences and then they may want something else.
>
>IMO, this is one of the most common sources of problems in software
>development: the communication should be two-way. The problem can be on
>either side: the engineer just listens a bit and then goes off to create
>unwanted stuff, the user is not interested and doesn't want to think
>together about solutions.
>
>I'm don't know whether this is valid in all environments.
>
>
>[snip]
>> The pragmatists deny there is objective truth.  They want to bend things
>> to what _they_ see, want, or desire.
>
>But this is a strange and needless twist in your arguments. The fact
>that I believe there is no objective truth outside abstract/logical
>systems does not mean I bend things to what I want. I am also able to
>create models of the world that work best for the user.
>
>
>Bert
>
>-- de Groot - Bril Earth Sciences B.V.
>-- Boulevard 1945 - 24, 7511 AE Enschede, The Netherlands
>-- mailto:bert@dgb.nl , http://www.dgb.nl
>-- Tel: +31 534315155 , Fax: +31 534315104

Re: The great Java showcase (re: 2nd historic mistake)

[Robert B. Love]

In <5vnat7$ncf$1@news2.digex.net> Ell wrote:
> You are seriously delusional if you do not realize that _in general_
> people know what they want.  Not that it's always best for them, but
> generally they do know what they want/desire.

And you must not be playing with a full deck if you don't understand
that there is a whole advertising industry that spends several $Billion
to shape what it is people want...and in designer colors too.

Your're correct in the general goal of having engineers respond to
customer needs but lets not believe that the people are all knowing.

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Re: The great Java showcase (re: 2nd historic mistake)

[Joachim Durchholz]

To add my 5c of experience in customer projects:

If you talk to a customer, there are three important pieces of
information to get sorted out:
1) what the customers says that he wants
2) what he wants
3) what he actually needs.
If you get the impression that all three match, you have either an
exceedingly well-informed customer or you didn't understand all aspects
of the situation. (Personally, I always assume the latter, if only to be
on the safe side...)

Regards,
Joachim
-- 
Please don't send unsolicited ads.

Re: Make what user wants?

[Dick Botting JB341]

Bengt Kleberg wrote:
> 
> In article <341F97D4.543C@dgb.nl>, Bert Bril <bert@dgb.nl> wrote:
> 
> > Ell wrote:
> > > You are seriously delusional if you do not realize that _in general_
> > > people know what they want.  Not that it's always best for them, but
> > > generally they do know what they want/desire.
> > >
> ...deleted
> 
Yep they always know what they want.
Anecdote.... 
 
The user asked that the new system print out on paper
about twenty pages of figures.   We said OK.... Are you
sure that you want twenty pages offigures.  The Client
said yes...
 
So we then asked... what do you do with these figures, and
the client says... well we add up the first and last columns
and if the first total is bigger than the other total then
I have to phone up ....yada yada yada...
 
So we asked:  Could the computer add up the numbers for you?
 
and the client said:
        Can it do that?
 
As Ell said... sometimes people know what they want, but
it may not be what they ask for, or what is best for them...
 
By the way... we got the output down to a single line...

-- 
dick botting     http://www.csci.csusb.edu/dick/signature.html
Disclaimer:      CSUSB may or may not agree with this message.
Copyright(1997): Copy freely but say where it came from.
"Arguments with furniture are rarely productive."  -- Kehlog Albran

Re: Make what user wants?

[Richie Bielak]

Dick Botting JB341 wrote:
>
> 
> The user asked that the new system print out on paper
> about twenty pages of figures.   We said OK.... Are you
> sure that you want twenty pages offigures.  The Client
> said yes...

[...]

> By the way... we got the output down to a single line...
> 

I worry how much information is being lost, when 20 pages of 
figures are reduced to a single line.  By looking at those
pages the users could have possibly spotted thing that
now are invisible - people are great pattern recognizers
and computers are not.

...richie

-- 
-> Richie Bielak
-> mailto: richieb@calfp.com   
-> www: http://www.netlabs.net/hp/richieb

Re: Make what user wants?

[the_walrus]

Richie Bielak wrote:
 
> I worry how much information is being lost, when 20 pages of
> figures are reduced to a single line.  By looking at those
> pages the users could have possibly spotted thing that
> now are invisible - people are great pattern recognizers
> and computers are not.

Egad, you're right! All those individual figures in each of the first
and last columns were lost when they were summed! Even worse ... the
sums were lost when they were compared! 

It's actually the maths that's at fault, 'tho, not the computer, since
they were ALREADY LOSING THE INFORMATION by using the maths in the first
place, before the computer was even in the equation.

The inescapable conclusion is that we stop counting things ... if you
ask me how many sheep are in the field, and I say "twenty", then we've
lost the information that one of them had a black spot on its shoulder.

What I should do instead, when you ask, is drive you down to the field
so that you can judge for yourself ... after all, people are great
pattern recognisers!

walrus.

Sorry, btw ... this isn't intended as a flame, just a bit of gentle
humour ... must be all that beer at dinnertime that keeps doing this to
my brain ;)

Re: Make what user wants?

["Paul E. Bennett"]

In article <342841CF.2494@doc.csusb.edu>
           dick@doc.csusb.edu "Dick Botting JB341" writes:

> The user asked that the new system print out on paper
> about twenty pages of figures.   We said OK.... Are you
> sure that you want twenty pages offigures.  The Client
> said yes...

[%X]
  
> By the way... we got the output down to a single line...

Others have referred to people being great pattern recognisers. Sometimes 
though it is difficult to spot a trend in the numbers alone. By all means 
sum and compare the numbers but wouldn't a graph in addition to this been 
helpful.

Pictures make the patterns easier to recognise.

-- 
Paul E. Bennett ................... <peb@transcontech.co.uk>
Transport Control Technology Ltd.   <http://www.tcontec.demon.co.uk/>
+44 (0)117-9499861                  <enquiry@transcontech.co.uk>
Going Forth Safely