Re: subjectivity

["W. Wesley Groleau x4923" <wwgrol@pseserv3.fw.hac.com>]

> If you're familiar with a language tool, it will tend to be easier to 
> use but that doesn't necessarily mean it's simple. 

Right.  And if you think a feature of your favorite language is 
simple, you are either correct by your definition of simplicity
or you are a closed-minded language bigot.  No offense should be
taken unless you _want_ to consider yourself the latter. :-)

> My experience of discovering Eiffel demonstrates these effects. 
> It was immediately clear to me that Eiffel was simpler than Ada in 
> spite of my familiarity with Ada. 

It was immediately clear to you that Eiffel met your idea of 
simplicity.  (Or it could be "I like Eiffel, Simplicity is good, 
therefore Eiffel is simple.)

There are things in the Ada RM that I (and most Ada folks) do not 
consider simple, but which are the reason why certain things in
Ada programs _are_ considered simple.  So even when we agree on 
what is simple, it's still subjective.

Since "definitions" are getting into the argument, shall we go to
a meta-argument?  Define "objective" and "subjective"

When Frieda says, "X is simple" and Dana says, "No, X is complex."
then I think they have not agreed on an objective measure of
simplicity.  Don thinks that one of them is correct, and the other
is either lying, or is handicapped in the God-given ability to
recognize simplicity.  Supposing Don is right--it's still subjective
which of them is correct.  The only ways to end the argument between
Dana and Frieda are for one of them to give in, or for both of them
to agree on a measure of simplicity and apply it.  For one of them
to insist that the ability to recognize simplicity is innate will at
best move the argument to the level of whether that is true.
Then if they agree that is true, they can still argue which of them
has that ability and which is handicapped.  I think I have a 
God-given ability to recognize that this is not raising the 
argument to a higher level--it is lowering the argument several 
levels closer to idiocy.

> The signal is trying to get through to the brain, but other things 
> such as familiarity and pre-conceived ideas are intent on derailing 
> it. If we identified and filtered out those interfering factors, we 
> would have the same perception of simplicity, IMO.

Yes, if we identify the factors in my definition of simplicity that
you disagree with, and I give them up, then we will have the same
perception of simplicity.

> Considering that is unlikely to happen, it's useful to circumvent that
> interference by examining the factors that give rise to the notion of
> simplicity. These factors, at least, are objective ....

These factors are not objective until we name them, agree on what
they mean, and agree on how to measure them.

Now, IF we could come to such agreement (instead of continuing to 
argue about whether simplicity is objective), I suspect we would
be forced to also agree that in certain areas, Eiffel is simpler,
and in other areas, Ada is simpler.  It would probably still be
subjective how it plays out overall.

So again, I suggest again: State why you believe a particular feature
is an advantage or disadvantage.  Provide, if available, measurements
of results as evidence.  Then if someone else disagrees (or doesn't
think the thing you measured is important) either say to yourself
he's an idiot and keep quiet, or continue discussing the _issue_.

Whether you intended it or not, saying that something he disagrees
about is obvious is the same as saying he is either blind or a liar.
If he were either, what point is there in arguing?

This subjectivity thing (including THIS post) is a waste of time.
Let's cut it out.

-- 
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    Wes Groleau, Hughes Defense Communications, Fort Wayne, IN USA
Senior Software Engineer - AFATDS                  Tool-smith Wanna-be
                    wwgrol AT pseserv3.fw.hac.com

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