From: Jay Martin <jaymmartin@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: The great Java showcase (re: 2nd historic mistake)
Date: 1997/08/29
Date: 1997-08-29T00:00:00+00:00 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <34072C68.DAFB500E@earthlink.net> (raw)
In-Reply-To: JSA.97Aug29141912@alexandria.organon.com
Jon S Anthony wrote:
>
> In article <3406C150.3EE5EE0E@stratasys.com> Jeff Kotula <jkotula@stratasys.com> writes:
>
> > I'm not saying that Eiffel advocates shouldn't tone down their
> > rhetoric, but the rest of us should probably open up a bit. We are,
> > after all, supposed to be engineers/scientists and remain free of
> > bias :)
> Sounds good to me. I note here that I really don't have a love affair
> with any programming language. Put another way, I feel they all suck
> one way or another and that they need to be evaluated for each context
> to see which one sucks the least for that context of use.
Seems reasonable. My "roots" are in "programming in the large
with "non-brilliant programmers" so I prefer "anal", "hand holding",
"strongly typed" and simple languages. Though I would love
to see my "beliefs" challenged by say stellar improvements in
productivity studies using more "loose" languages on projects
consisting of say a few million lines of code and heh "room temperature"
programming IQs.
> I also
> favor (heresy of heresies) multi-language development in those (many,
> imo) cases where it makes sense.
Multi-language development projects can be a pain and usually
more languages means even more pain.
> The thing that is annoying about
> these ultra-fanatical Eiffel people, isn't Eiffel - it _is_ a language
> that sucks less than many - it's that they basically have bought into
> their own rhetoric that Eiffel is the absolute paragon of perfection
> in PLs.
I have never used Eiffel but it looks to be a very good language
that has few compromises on "quality".
> IMO, there are many perspectives from which it is not even
> remotely close to this. Take expressivity for example. Compared to
> CL/CLOS, Eiffel is about as expressive as the original BASIC.
It seems to me if you are doing "prototypes", short lived programs
and small programs, etc, then expressivity is a desirable
feature. As you go into "a programming the large" situation, then
"expressivity" has its costs. And it may just be my "roots"
but "large" situations seem much more challenging and critical
than "small programs" which can easily be dumped and rewritten.
I guess I find "unscalable" programming in the small
languages and programming philosophies less compelling than
"large" ones.
Jay
next prev parent reply other threads:[~1997-08-29 0:00 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 112+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
1997-08-25 0:00 The great Java showcase (re: 2nd historic mistake) Bertrand Meyer
1997-08-26 0:00 ` BruceMount
1997-08-28 0:00 ` Brett J. Stonier
[not found] ` <JSA.97Aug28182029@alexandria.organon.com>
[not found] ` <3406C150.3EE5EE0E@stratasys.com>
1997-08-29 0:00 ` Jon S Anthony
1997-08-29 0:00 ` Jay Martin [this message]
1997-08-29 0:00 ` Jon S Anthony
1997-09-02 0:00 ` W. Wesley Groleau x4923
1997-09-15 0:00 ` Tim Ottinger
[not found] ` <5u0nil$atg@mulga.cs.mu.OZ.AU>
1997-08-28 0:00 ` Richard A. O'Keefe
[not found] ` <5u3o1n$hu5@mulga.cs.mu.OZ.AU>
1997-08-28 0:00 ` Nick Leaton
1997-09-15 0:00 ` Tim Ottinger
1997-09-16 0:00 ` W. Wesley Groleau x4923
1997-08-28 0:00 ` not
1997-08-26 0:00 ` Flavius.Vespasianus
[not found] ` <JSA.97Aug26153546@alexandria.organon.com>
[not found] ` <34034658.7DE14518@eiffel.com>
1997-08-27 0:00 ` Jon S Anthony
1997-08-27 0:00 ` James P. White
[not found] ` <34047A7D.62319AC4@eiffel.com>
1997-08-27 0:00 ` Bertrand Meyer
1997-08-27 0:00 ` Matthew S. Whiting
1997-08-28 0:00 ` Flavius.Vespasianus
1997-08-28 0:00 ` Mike Coffin
1997-08-29 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1997-08-30 0:00 ` James P. White
1997-08-31 0:00 ` Jon S Anthony
1997-08-28 0:00 ` James P. White
1997-08-29 0:00 ` Dennis Weldy
1997-09-03 0:00 ` Charles Ditzel
1997-08-27 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
[not found] ` <01bcb38a$8ddc1200$1c10d30a@ntwneil>
1997-08-28 0:00 ` James P. White
1997-08-28 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1997-08-29 0:00 ` Lee Webber
1997-08-28 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1997-08-28 0:00 ` James P. White
[not found] ` <EFnKuI.4rI@ecf.toronto.edu>
1997-08-29 0:00 ` Memory management techniques -- was Re: The great Java showcase Jon S Anthony
1997-08-30 0:00 ` The great Java showcase (re: 2nd historic mistake) Bert Bril
1997-08-31 0:00 ` Jay Martin
1997-08-29 0:00 ` Lee Webber
1997-08-29 0:00 ` Mike Charlton
[not found] ` <N.19970829.uput@sisyphus.demon.co.uk>
1997-09-02 0:00 ` Mike Charlton
1997-09-03 0:00 ` Dave Sparks
[not found] ` <EFn8CI.D9p@ecf.toronto.edu>
1997-08-29 0:00 ` Peter Hermann
1997-08-29 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1997-08-30 0:00 ` Patrick Doyle
1997-08-31 0:00 ` Jon S Anthony
1997-09-01 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1997-09-02 0:00 ` Jon S Anthony
1997-09-05 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1997-09-06 0:00 ` Jon S Anthony
1997-08-29 0:00 ` Arthur Nelson
1997-08-29 0:00 ` Patrick Doyle
1997-09-01 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1997-08-29 0:00 ` Laurent Guerby
[not found] ` <EFonoz.AFC@ecf.toronto.edu>
1997-08-29 0:00 ` Samuel Mize
[not found] ` <3402FD4D.C196785B@brightwood.com>
1997-08-27 0:00 ` Patrick Doyle
1997-08-28 0:00 ` Paul Johnson
1997-08-28 0:00 ` Brett J. Stonier
1997-08-28 0:00 ` Jeff Brown
1997-08-28 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1997-08-29 0:00 ` Paul Johnson
[not found] <5tvvsj$lh2$1@news2.digex.net>
1997-08-27 0:00 ` Jeff Brown
1997-08-28 0:00 ` Patrick Doyle
1997-08-28 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1997-08-27 0:00 ` W. Wesley Groleau x4923
1997-08-27 0:00 ` W. Wesley Groleau x4923
1997-08-28 0:00 ` Brett J. Stonier
1997-08-28 0:00 ` Jon S Anthony
1997-08-29 0:00 ` James P. White
1997-08-29 0:00 ` Paul Johnson
1997-08-29 0:00 ` Brett J. Stonier
1997-08-29 0:00 ` Dennis Weldy
[not found] ` <5u6ovi$5kb$1@news2.digex.net>
1997-09-01 0:00 ` Paul Johnson
-- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
1997-08-29 0:00 Ell
1997-08-29 0:00 Ell
1997-08-29 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1997-08-29 0:00 ` Jay Martin
1997-08-30 0:00 ` Patrick Doyle
1997-08-30 0:00 ` Jay Martin
1997-08-30 0:00 ` Joachim Durchholz
1997-09-01 0:00 ` Paul Johnson
1997-09-01 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1997-09-02 0:00 ` Veli-Pekka Nousiainen
1997-09-02 0:00 ` Martin Tom Brown
1997-09-02 0:00 ` Jeff Kotula
1997-09-02 0:00 ` Matthew S. Whiting
1997-09-03 0:00 ` Robert Munck
1997-09-05 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1997-09-08 0:00 ` Richard A. O'Keefe
1997-09-13 0:00 ` Mark S. Hathaway
1997-09-16 0:00 ` Des Kenny
1997-10-28 0:00 ` John English
1997-09-16 0:00 ` Des Kenny
1997-09-16 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1997-09-05 0:00 ` Darren New
1997-09-02 0:00 ` W. Wesley Groleau x4923
1997-09-05 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1997-09-15 0:00 ` Tim Ottinger
1997-09-16 0:00 ` Joachim Durchholz
1997-09-18 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1997-09-16 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1997-08-29 0:00 ` Brett J. Stonier
1997-08-29 0:00 ` Jon S Anthony
1997-08-30 0:00 BruceMount
1997-09-04 0:00 Marin David Condic, 561.796.8997, M/S 731-96
[not found] <97090916235363@psavax.pwfl.com>
1997-09-11 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1997-09-15 0:00 Ell
1997-09-16 0:00 ` Tim Ottinger
1997-09-17 0:00 ` Doc
1997-09-17 0:00 Ell
1997-09-16 0:00 ` Mark Wilden
1997-09-17 0:00 ` Robert B. Love
1997-09-17 0:00 ` Joachim Durchholz
1997-09-17 0:00 Ell
1997-09-17 0:00 Ell
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