Re: Eiffel anyone? - Who uses it?

[walth@netcom.com (Walt Howard)]

On Thu, 17 Jul 1997 00:29:50 -0800, mheaney@ni.net (Matthew
Heaney) wrote:

>In article <33C61545.167EB0E7@tower.com>, "ivory@tower.com"
><ivory@tower.com> wrote:
>
>>My friend's son is looking at colleges, and was startled to see
>>that RIT appears to have a heavy focus on the language Eiffel for
>>the first 2-3 years.  He's using this as a black mark against the
>>school.  The thinking is that he'd rather be learning a 'real'
>>language that has real-life value on the job market.
>>
>>He's asked me for my opinion, and I'd have to say that I somewhat
>>agree.  I've never met an Eiffel programer, and don't see a lot of
>>ads for them in the classifieds.  Note: I'm not debating whether or
>>not Eiffel is a good language; that's not the concern.  The concern
>>is whether or not the job market will see this as having been time
>>well spent.
>>
>>So, what's the (reality based) counter argument?
>
>Your friend's son doesn't know what he is talking about.
>
>I, a proud Ada programmer, fully endorse teaching Eiffel as a first
>language as A Good Thing.
>
>For a cogent discussion of this issue, read Teaching the Method, chapter 29
>of Object-Oriented Software Construction (2nd ed), by Bertrand Meyer.
>
>The argument that the Eiffel has no "real-life value on the job market" is
>completely specious.  You go to college to LEARN HOW TO THINK, not to learn
>programming language syntax.  If you want that, why now just save all your
>money and go to a trade school?  

	I think most people should, even though it's looked down
upon, the people who go to trade school aren't working in
McDonalds like the programmers who learned skills the job market
didn't want. Most of my programming jobs, though they requiring
loads of work, were quite enjoyable, emotionally rewarding and
financially excellent. 

	You can't beat working with a team of bright people where
every day you learn. Where new and exciting approaches to
problems come up every day, things that you would never have
thought of, even though you yourself have some great ideas.

	Just do what it takes to get that first programming job. 

	My mother teaches art history at Cal Tech. Cal Tech wants to
make sure all the nerds get a little experience with the
humanities. I guess they want them thinking twice when they go to
work on H-Bomb projects. She says her classes are almost entirely
oriental/asian. The Americans aren't going in for the "practical
skills" anymore. Someone is telling them that "History" or
"Poetry" is what they should learn. I think it's pathetic.

>Or just pick up a programming book at the
>corner bookstore?  Hey, Learn C in 14 Days!

	At a rough guess, 95% of the American programmers I know
(microcomputer environment) did just that. They did NOT major or
minor in any field related to computers in college. They were
self taught. Virtually ALL of the foreign (Russian, Chinese and
Indian) programmers were formally educated in computers (probably
immigration only lets in people with formal educations). However
I've seen no real qualitative difference between them. Both
classes (foreign and domestic) programmers were roughly equal in
skill. That's because, a month on a REAL programming job is worth
a year in school so that is where the REAL learning takes place. 

>If it were that simple, everybody would be doing it.

	It's the other way around. Self teaching requires
self-motivation which is a lot harder than mindlessly wandering
though school because your parents wanted you to. If a person
wants to learn, they can do so by themselves. They may not have
the paper to prove it, but that doesn't mean they don't know it.
In the end, it boils down to their own desire to learn anyway, no
matter which way they do that learning. 

	People think that "taking a class" is some magical way to
learn, like the knowledge is going to pour out of the teacher
into them.  It's completely false. Anyone can read books on a
particular subject and learn as much as having someone tell them
what's in the book!

	Now, I'm not talking about "Lab", where you get practical
experience. That you need but you don't have to get it in school.
You can get a grunt programming job and you'll learn from the
other programmers.

>Try to convince this person to read Meyer's book.  Guys that just want to
>learn a "real" programming language, or would rather spend their time
>programming instead of engineering, shouldn't be programming at all.
>
	That's a totally wrong statement. The computer revolution was
caused by the "opening up" of the computer field to ANYONE who
had an interest, no matter what that interest was. Cheap
computers and cheap compilers enabled EVERYONE to have a shot at
exercising their talent. By process of natural selection the
talented, hard working ones rose to the top irrespective of their
education or initial motivations. 

	You should see the source code on some of the most successful
applications. It would make OOP programmers vomit it's so hack,
yet, it didn't require "clean" design or anything to be
successful. ( I get sick to my stomach sometimes because I spend
so much effort making my designs and code simple, understandable
and object oriented but other people who don't, still do ok).

	A hell of a lot of people got interested in computers just
for the fun of programming. The activity itself, coding,
compiling and debugging is loads of fun for some of us.
	
	I think most people are going to college expecting to "get an
education" so they can survive later in the real world. If you
tell them up front they are coming in to "learn how to think", I
think many would bail right then and there.

	While microcomputers were taking over the "REAL" world from
1976 to 1885, colleges were still teaching mainframe stuff. Thus,
a whole army of self-taught programmers took over because
colleges were NOT keeping up with what was really relevant.

	Just remember Bill Gates was a college drop-out.

	Grab the employment section of your newspaper. See what
employers are asking for. They are asking for LANGUAGE knowledge
the vast majority and application domain experience/knowledge. I
have yet to see an employment ad that asked for knowledge on "how
to think". 
	
	"Wanted, a programmer who knows how to think. No experience
necessary. No knowledge of computer languages necessary. Up to
120,000 for right applicant plus benefits".

	I know a "C programmer" who didn't even know what main() was,
who was making 80,000/yr. You don't believe me? I'll tell you
why, later in this post.

	You don't have to be a good software engineer to make a lot
of money as a programmer. Engineering can come later. If
companies are stupid enough to hire people based on language
knowledge, then you should take advantage of that.

	If a job reaches the employment ad stage, the company is
really desperate, so you know those skills are in high demand.

	You aren't going to be happy knowing Eiffel and flipping
burgers at Jack in the Box.

	Learn to support yourself first, then retire at 40 and learn
how to think in your copious free time.

	Walt Howard

	Oh yeah, the programmer who didn't know what main() was?
He was a Windows GUI programmer, who didn't need main, ever.