Re: Critique of Ariane 5 paper (finally!)

[Ken Garlington <kennieg@flash.net>]

Bertrand Meyer wrote:
> 
> Robert Dewar wrote:
> 
> [Quoting Ken Garlington]
> 
> !!! The discussion is interesting in that Meyer (a) criticizes
> !!! Java for not being used on large projects
> !!! (whatever happened to unfair criticism of new languages?
> 
> [Robert Dewar]
> 
> > Hmmm! I guess he does not consider the Corel office suite large!!!
> > Or perhaps simply does not know about it
> 
> It would be difficult not to know about it, as it gets hammered
> over and again by Java proponents (along with Java
> tools themselves) as the example of completed Java development,
> to the extent that one may wonder whether there is any other.

How many large-scale projects need to be performed before evidence
of scalability is established?

What was the standard set for Eiffel, for example? How long after
Eiffel's introduction was this standard met?

> 
> > (actually a surprising number of
> > large projects are being done in Java, I would be willing
> > to guess that at any program size, the use of Java eclipses
> > the use of Eiffel by a very wide margin).
> 
> I am "willing to guess" anything but guesses are not very
> enlightening. More to the point, however, you may want to read
> the article by Alan Radding in Software Magazine (not IEEE
> Software), July 1997, pages 51-54. It is entitled
> "Tool Immaturity Tempers Java" and begins: "With the pack of
> vendors offering Java-based development tools and developers
> clamoring for them, you'd think everyone have Java projects
> underway. They don't. The lack of mature tools and standards
> is keeping most companies in exploration mode." The article
> quotes Judith Hurwitz from the Hurwitz Group as "counsel[ing]
> developers not to expect a robust, industrial-strength Java
> development environment for about three years". It adds
> "In addition, Java compilers are slow", quoting Mitch Kramer,
> a senior analyst with Patricia Seybold Group. Jeffry Borror,
> director of information technology at Daiwa Securities America
> is quoted as saying "Java hasn't stabilized as a language, and
> the tools still lack many features". Etc.

Weren't some of these same complaints made about Eiffel in it's
early years? (I seem to remember recently seeing some posts to
this effect, in fact.) I know they were made about Ada (I made
some of them :), and Ada has certainly shown that it can be
used in some very large-scale projects (1M+ SLOCs), that
it can be reused/ported successfully, etc.

It just seems a little premature to bash Java simply because
of lack of use. As I said about Eiffel:

"There does not appear to be any evidence that DBC/Eiffel
has been successfully used in a system like the Ariane IRS,
much less that it produced significantly improved safety
or reliability. By itself, this is not particularly
damaging: All new ideas have to have a first user."

> 
> On portability see also the article extracts (from
> ComputerWorld and IEEE Computer) at
> http://www.eiffel.com/general/news.
> 
> --
> Bertrand Meyer, President, ISE Inc., Santa Barbara (California)
> 805-685-1006, fax 805-685-6869, <Bertrand.Meyer@eiffel.com>
> Web: http://www.eiffel.com, with instructions for free download
> == ISE Eiffel 4: Eiffel straight from those who invented it ==