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From: Samuel Mize <smize@link.com>
Subject: Re: Safety-critical development in Ada and Eiffel
Date: 1997/07/17
Date: 1997-07-17T00:00:00+00:00	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <33CE8ECD.41DE@link.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: 97071709562795@psavax.pwfl.com


Marin David Condic, 561.796.8997, M/S 731-96 wrote:

> The Ariane software specifically and very deliberately *removed*
> the checks because of time constraints.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

My understanding from the previous threads was that there was
a specific management decision to not consider Ariane 5
requirements for the Ariane 4 INS design.  The check removal
was reasonable in the Ariane 4 context.

Then there was a specific management decision to not review
for Ariane 5 the requirements to which the INS was built, or
to retest it in the new conditions.

Given these decisions, the problem would not have been caught,
no matter what assertions were in the code.

Now, Meyer et al. never stated outright that using Eiffel (or
assertions) would have prevented the crash; they stated that
using Design By Contract (DBC) would prevented the crash.

This is trivially true.  Traditional methods of specification
review or design review or test would ALSO have prevented the
crash.  Saying "DBC could have prevented the crash" creates a
misleading suggestion that this demonstrates a DBC advantage
over other methods.

The Ariane crash proves that properly-managed DBC would be
better than DBMG (Design By Management Guesswork).  It neither
supports nor refutes the thesis that DBC is better than other
responsible/traditional engineering methods.

I can't say that Meyer et al. intended to imply otherwise, but
it is certainly a reasonable inference for the reader to draw,
given the paper.  That inference angered some people.

Samuel Mize




  reply	other threads:[~1997-07-17  0:00 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 255+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
1997-07-17  0:00 Safety-critical development in Ada and Eiffel Marin David Condic, 561.796.8997, M/S 731-96
1997-07-17  0:00 ` Samuel Mize [this message]
1997-07-17  0:00   ` Ken Garlington
  -- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
1997-08-24  0:00 Robert Dewar
1997-07-24  0:00 Marin David Condic, 561.796.8997, M/S 731-96
1997-07-21  0:00 Marin David Condic, 561.796.8997, M/S 731-96
1997-07-21  0:00 ` Ken Garlington
1997-07-21  0:00 Marin David Condic, 561.796.8997, M/S 731-96
1997-07-21  0:00 ` Ken Garlington
1997-07-18  0:00 Marin David Condic, 561.796.8997, M/S 731-96
1997-07-18  0:00 Marin David Condic, 561.796.8997, M/S 731-96
1997-07-22  0:00 ` Karel Th�nissen
1997-07-18  0:00 Marin David Condic, 561.796.8997, M/S 731-96
1997-07-18  0:00 Marin David Condic, 561.796.8997, M/S 731-96
1997-07-09  0:00 Is ADA as good for graphics programming as C? (WAS: Re: Avoiding the second historic mistake) Tucker Taft
1997-07-10  0:00 ` Safety-critical development in Ada and Eiffel Don Harrison
1997-07-10  0:00   ` Joe Gwinn
1997-07-11  0:00     ` Robert S. White
1997-07-15  0:00       ` Don Harrison
1997-07-15  0:00         ` Ken Garlington
1997-07-16  0:00           ` Don Harrison
1997-07-10  0:00   ` Ken Garlington
1997-07-11  0:00     ` Ted Velkoff
1997-07-12  0:00       ` Ken Garlington
1997-07-13  0:00         ` Jon S Anthony
1997-07-14  0:00           ` Wes Groleau
1997-07-15  0:00             ` Jon S Anthony
1997-07-15  0:00           ` Don Harrison
1997-07-15  0:00             ` Ken Garlington
1997-07-16  0:00           ` Paul Johnson
1997-07-16  0:00             ` Ken Garlington
1997-07-17  0:00               ` Paul Johnson
1997-07-17  0:00                 ` Ken Garlington
1997-07-18  0:00                   ` Paul Johnson
1997-07-18  0:00                     ` Jon S Anthony
1997-07-18  0:00                     ` Ken Garlington
1997-07-21  0:00                       ` Paul Johnson
1997-07-17  0:00             ` Jon S Anthony
     [not found]               ` <EDHqKo.K52@world.std.com>
1997-07-18  0:00                 ` Jon S Anthony
1997-07-19  0:00                   ` Robert A Duff
1997-07-20  0:00                     ` Tucker Taft
1997-07-10  0:00   ` Mike Stark
1997-07-11  0:00     ` Donovan Baarda
1997-07-13  0:00       ` Steve Furlong
1997-07-16  0:00         ` Joachim Durchholz
1997-07-17  0:00           ` Robert Dewar
1997-07-17  0:00           ` Ken Garlington
1997-07-18  0:00           ` John Nagle
1997-07-18  0:00             ` Jon S Anthony
1997-07-18  0:00           ` Jon S Anthony
1997-07-18  0:00             ` Nick Leaton
1997-07-18  0:00               ` Jon S Anthony
1997-07-11  0:00   ` Kazimir Majorinc
1997-07-12  0:00     ` Ken Garlington
1997-07-11  0:00   ` Don Harrison
1997-07-11  0:00     ` James Graves
1997-07-14  0:00       ` Don Harrison
1997-07-12  0:00     ` Ken Garlington
1997-07-15  0:00       ` Don Harrison
1997-07-15  0:00         ` Ken Garlington
1997-07-16  0:00           ` Jean-Marc Jezequel
1997-07-16  0:00             ` Ken Garlington
1997-07-17  0:00               ` "Paul E. Bennett"
1997-07-17  0:00                 ` Robert Dewar
1997-07-17  0:00           ` Joachim Durchholz
1997-07-19  0:00             ` Ken Garlington
1997-07-21  0:00             ` Robert S. White
1997-07-20  0:00               ` nabbasi
1997-07-21  0:00                 ` W. Wesley Groleau x4923
1997-07-18  0:00           ` Don Harrison
1997-07-18  0:00             ` Ken Garlington
1997-07-22  0:00               ` Don Harrison
1997-07-21  0:00                 ` Ken Garlington
1997-07-23  0:00                   ` Don Harrison
1997-07-23  0:00                     ` W. Wesley Groleau x4923
1997-07-24  0:00                       ` Don Harrison
1997-07-24  0:00                         ` Ken Garlington
1997-07-26  0:00                           ` Joachim Durchholz
1997-07-31  0:00                             ` Ken Garlington
1997-07-28  0:00                           ` Nick Leaton
1997-07-28  0:00                             ` Steve Jones - JON
1997-07-31  0:00                             ` Ken Garlington
1997-07-29  0:00                           ` Don Harrison
1997-07-31  0:00                             ` Ken Garlington
1997-08-07  0:00                               ` Don Harrison
1997-08-07  0:00                                 ` Ken Garlington
1997-08-09  0:00                                   ` Jim Cochrane
1997-08-11  0:00                                     ` Paul Johnson
1997-08-11  0:00                                       ` Ken Garlington
1997-08-12  0:00                                         ` Mark A Biggar
1997-08-19  0:00                                           ` Robert Dewar
1997-08-19  0:00                                             ` Bertrand Meyer
1997-08-19  0:00                                               ` Robert Dewar
1997-08-20  0:00                                                 ` Lee Webber
1997-08-21  0:00                                                   ` Don Harrison
1997-08-23  0:00                                                     ` Ken Garlington
1997-08-20  0:00                                                 ` Nick Leaton
1997-08-21  0:00                                                   ` Jon S Anthony
1997-08-22  0:00                                                     ` Nick Leaton
1997-08-21  0:00                                                   ` Joachim Durchholz
1997-08-19  0:00                                             ` Nick Leaton
1997-08-20  0:00                                             ` Ken Garlington
1997-08-26  0:00                                             ` Richard A. O'Keefe
1997-08-13  0:00                                         ` Paul Johnson
1997-08-13  0:00                                           ` Ken Garlington
1997-08-15  0:00                                             ` Paul Johnson
1997-08-15  0:00                                               ` Ken Garlington
1997-08-18  0:00                                                 ` Joachim Durchholz
1997-08-19  0:00                                                   ` Ken Garlington
1997-08-20  0:00                                                     ` Nick Leaton
1997-08-20  0:00                                                       ` Nasser
1997-08-21  0:00                                                       ` Jon S Anthony
1997-08-22  0:00                                                         ` Nick Leaton
1997-08-23  0:00                                                           ` Ken Garlington
1997-08-21  0:00                                                     ` Joachim Durchholz
1997-08-23  0:00                                                       ` Ken Garlington
1997-08-12  0:00                                   ` Don Harrison
1997-08-12  0:00                                     ` Ken Garlington
1997-08-12  0:00                                     ` Jon S Anthony
1997-08-13  0:00                                       ` Ted Velkoff
1997-08-13  0:00                                         ` Jon S Anthony
1997-08-13  0:00                                         ` Ken Garlington
1997-08-13  0:00                                           ` Ted Velkoff
1997-08-14  0:00                                             ` Matt Austern
1997-08-14  0:00                                               ` Ted Velkoff
1997-08-18  0:00                                                 ` Matt Austern
1997-08-20  0:00                                                   ` Joachim Durchholz
1997-08-21  0:00                                                     ` Jon S Anthony
1997-08-22  0:00                                                       ` Joachim Durchholz
1997-08-15  0:00                                             ` Ken Garlington
1997-08-16  0:00                                               ` Ted Velkoff
1997-08-16  0:00                                                 ` Ken Garlington
1997-08-16  0:00                                                   ` Jon S Anthony
1997-08-16  0:00                                                     ` Ken Garlington
1997-08-18  0:00                                                     ` Ted Velkoff
1997-08-18  0:00                                                   ` Ted Velkoff
1997-08-19  0:00                                                     ` Ken Garlington
1997-08-14  0:00                                           ` Nick Leaton
1997-08-16  0:00                                             ` Robert Dewar
1997-08-18  0:00                                             ` Joachim Durchholz
1997-08-19  0:00                                               ` Ken Garlington
1997-08-21  0:00                                                 ` Joachim Durchholz
1997-08-23  0:00                                                   ` Ken Garlington
1997-08-13  0:00                                       ` Don Harrison
1997-08-13  0:00                                         ` Jon S Anthony
1997-08-15  0:00                                           ` Don Harrison
1997-08-16  0:00                                             ` Jon S Anthony
1997-08-13  0:00                                         ` Samuel Mize
1997-08-13  0:00                                           ` Robert A Duff
1997-08-14  0:00                                             ` Jon S Anthony
1997-08-15  0:00                                             ` Don Harrison
1997-08-16  0:00                                               ` Ken Garlington
1997-08-23  0:00                                     ` W. Wesley Groleau x4923
1997-08-23  0:00                                       ` Robert Dewar
1997-07-23  0:00                     ` Ken Garlington
1997-07-25  0:00                       ` Don Harrison
1997-07-15  0:00         ` Wes Groleau
1997-07-15  0:00           ` Ken Garlington
1997-07-16  0:00           ` Don Harrison
1997-07-16  0:00             ` Ken Garlington
1997-07-16  0:00               ` Robert Dewar
1997-07-17  0:00                 ` Paul Johnson
1997-07-17  0:00                   ` Jon S Anthony
1997-07-17  0:00                   ` Stuart Palin
1997-07-18  0:00                     ` Ian Rae
1997-07-18  0:00                     ` Paul Johnson
1997-07-18  0:00                   ` Joachim Durchholz
1997-07-18  0:00                 ` Don Harrison
1997-07-20  0:00                 ` Don Harrison
1997-07-18  0:00           ` Robert I. Eachus
1997-07-21  0:00             ` W. Wesley Groleau x4923
1997-07-16  0:00         ` Warwick Pulley
1997-07-16  0:00           ` Nick Leaton
1997-07-16  0:00             ` Robert Dewar
1997-07-20  0:00               ` Joachim Durchholz
1997-07-24  0:00                 ` Joe Buck
1997-07-24  0:00                 ` Paul M Gover
1997-07-26  0:00                   ` Joachim Durchholz
1997-07-28  0:00                     ` Robert S. White
1997-08-09  0:00                       ` Marinos J. Yannikos
1997-08-10  0:00                         ` Robert S. White
1997-08-11  0:00                         ` Peter Hamer
1997-08-11  0:00                           ` "Paul E. Bennett"
1997-07-29  0:00                     ` Don Harrison
1997-07-21  0:00               ` Don Harrison
1997-07-17  0:00             ` Warwick Pulley
1997-07-17  0:00               ` Warwick Pulley
1997-07-17  0:00               ` Nick Leaton
1997-07-17  0:00                 ` Richie Bielak
1997-07-17  0:00                   ` Karel Th�nissen
1997-07-17  0:00                   ` Samuel Tardieu
1997-07-17  0:00                     ` Richie Bielak
1997-07-23  0:00                       ` Don Harrison
1997-07-23  0:00                         ` Ken Garlington
1997-07-25  0:00                           ` Don Harrison
1997-07-23  0:00                         ` Karel Th�nissen
1997-07-24  0:00                           ` Don Harrison
1997-07-24  0:00                             ` Ken Garlington
1997-07-29  0:00                               ` Don Harrison
1997-07-29  0:00                                 ` Ron Kohl
1997-07-29  0:00                                   ` Don Harrison
1997-07-30  0:00                                     ` Don Harrison
1997-07-31  0:00                                 ` Ken Garlington
1997-08-07  0:00                                   ` Don Harrison
1997-08-07  0:00                                     ` Ken Garlington
1997-08-13  0:00                                       ` Don Harrison
1997-08-13  0:00                                         ` Ken Garlington
1997-08-14  0:00                                           ` Don Harrison
1997-08-15  0:00                                             ` Ken Garlington
1997-08-19  0:00                                               ` Don Harrison
1997-08-19  0:00                                                 ` Lee Webber
1997-08-20  0:00                                                 ` Ken Garlington
1997-08-21  0:00                                                   ` Don Harrison
1997-08-15  0:00                                             ` Don Harrison
1997-08-15  0:00                                               ` Ken Garlington
1997-08-16  0:00                                                 ` Jon S Anthony
1997-08-19  0:00                                                 ` Don Harrison
1997-08-20  0:00                                                   ` Ken Garlington
1997-08-15  0:00                                             ` Lee Webber
1997-08-19  0:00                                               ` Don Harrison
1997-08-19  0:00                                                 ` Lee Webber
1997-07-24  0:00                             ` Don Harrison
1997-07-23  0:00                         ` Jon S Anthony
1997-07-24  0:00                           ` Don Harrison
1997-07-24  0:00                             ` Jon S Anthony
1997-07-17  0:00                   ` Ken Garlington
1997-07-23  0:00                     ` Don Harrison
1997-07-23  0:00                       ` Ken Garlington
1997-07-25  0:00                         ` Don Harrison
1997-07-23  0:00                   ` Don Harrison
1997-07-23  0:00                     ` Ken Garlington
1997-07-25  0:00                       ` Don Harrison
1997-07-17  0:00                 ` Ken Garlington
     [not found]                 ` <JSA.97Jul17174044@alexandria.organon.com>
1997-07-18  0:00                   ` Joachim Durchholz
1997-07-18  0:00                   ` Nick Leaton
1997-07-17  0:00           ` Don Harrison
1997-07-17  0:00             ` Karel Th�nissen
1997-07-21  0:00               ` Don Harrison
1997-07-17  0:00             ` Robert Dewar
1997-07-22  0:00               ` Don Harrison
1997-07-17  0:00             ` Robert Dewar
1997-07-18  0:00               ` Jon S Anthony
1997-07-19  0:00                 ` Robert A Duff
1997-07-21  0:00                   ` W. Wesley Groleau x4923
1997-07-21  0:00               ` Don Harrison
1997-07-21  0:00                 ` Jon S Anthony
1997-07-21  0:00                   ` Brian Rogoff
1997-07-16  0:00     ` Alan Brain
1997-07-18  0:00       ` Don Harrison
1997-07-22  0:00         ` Alan Brain
1997-07-22  0:00           ` Don Harrison
1997-07-23  0:00             ` Jon S Anthony
1997-07-24  0:00               ` Don Harrison
1997-07-25  0:00               ` Alan Brain
1997-07-25  0:00                 ` Jon S Anthony
1997-07-11  0:00   ` Don Harrison
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