A New Low for NASA? (was HELP!!!!!!)

A New Low for NASA? (was HELP!!!!!!)

[Sam Harbaugh, Palm Bay, Florida]

PLEASE SEE MY OPINION BELOW

>Date:    Tue, 10 Jun 1997 09:08:49 -0600
>From:    Luke Holden <Luke@HOLDENS.ORG>
>Subject: HELP!!!!!!

>HELP!!! I Desperately need Ada programmers. I am working on a project
>called GMP (Geooss  Modification Program) The Geooss is a system to
>track the millions of space debris in orbit around earth. NASA uses this
>to figure out when to launch something into orbit and not have it hit
>anything. One problem, The Government did such a bad job on this system
>it desperately needs reprogramming and reorganization. I need as many
>skilled Ada programmers as I can get. <location deleted> There are a few
skills >that will better your chances of being
>hired, they are the folloring:

>-      Ada - Required
><skills deleted>

>It would be nice if you had a formal education but not required. The
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Good God man!  NASA wants to avoid hitting space debris and a formal
education would be *NICE*.  Has NASA really hit a new low?

What contractor will put uneducated programmers on such a project.  I
*really* want to know.  Please make it easy for me and post the answer. I
want to get the info to my congressman Dave Weldon who is on the space
committee I believe.

Thanks.

Sam Harbaugh
Palm Bay, Florida (near where NASA launches things)


>Following would be nice to have:

>- Computer Science
>- Electrical Engineering
>- Math

>For more information please contact Luke Holden at Luke@Holdens.org with
>a resume intact. Or fax me at (719) 590-4129. Thank you very much

------------------------------

Re: A New Low for NASA? (was HELP!!!!!!)

[John G. Volan]

Sam Harbaugh, Palm Bay, Florida wrote:
> 
> PLEASE SEE MY OPINION BELOW
> 
> >Date:    Tue, 10 Jun 1997 09:08:49 -0600
> >From:    Luke Holden <Luke@HOLDENS.ORG>
> >Subject: HELP!!!!!!
> 
> >HELP!!! I Desperately need Ada programmers. I am working on a project
> >called GMP (Geooss  Modification Program) The Geooss is a system to
> >track the millions of space debris in orbit around earth. NASA uses this
> >to figure out when to launch something into orbit and not have it hit
> >anything. One problem, The Government did such a bad job on this system
> >it desperately needs reprogramming and reorganization. I need as many
> >skilled Ada programmers as I can get. <location deleted> There are a few
> skills >that will better your chances of being
> >hired, they are the folloring:
> 
> >-      Ada - Required
> ><skills deleted>
> 
> >It would be nice if you had a formal education but not required. The
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> 
> Good God man!  NASA wants to avoid hitting space debris and a formal
> education would be *NICE*.  Has NASA really hit a new low?
> 
> What contractor will put uneducated programmers on such a project.  I
> *really* want to know.  Please make it easy for me and post the answer. I
> want to get the info to my congressman Dave Weldon who is on the space
> committee I believe.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Sam Harbaugh
> Palm Bay, Florida (near where NASA launches things)

Moreover, what engineer with any sense of self-respect or even
self-preservation would want to apply for employment on a project that
is already clearly an utter disaster?

Luke, best of luck to you ... because, um, you're going to need it...

-- John Volan (who lives on a _planet_ that NASA launches things from)

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internet.Usenet.Put_Signature 
  (Name       => "John G. Volan",
   Employer   => "Texas Instruments Advanced C3I Systems, San Jose, CA",
   Work_Email => "johnv@ti.com",
   Home_Email => "johnvolan@sprintmail.com",
   Slogan     => "Ada95: World's *FIRST* International-Standard OOPL",
   Disclaimer => "My employer never defined these opinions, so using " & 
                 "them would be totally erroneous...or is that just "  &
                 "nondeterministic behavior now? :-) ");
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: A New Low for NASA? (was HELP!!!!!!)

[Marin David Condic, 561.796.8997, M/S 731-93]

"Sam Harbaugh, Palm Bay, Florida" <harbaugh@IU.NET> writes:
>>It would be nice if you had a formal education but not required. The
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>Good God man!  NASA wants to avoid hitting space debris and a formal
>education would be *NICE*.  Has NASA really hit a new low?
>
>What contractor will put uneducated programmers on such a project.  I
>*really* want to know.  Please make it easy for me and post the answer. I
>want to get the info to my congressman Dave Weldon who is on the space
>committee I believe.
>
    Why so shocked? I've seen "Ada Consultants" who's whole experience
    of the language was pretty much that they had read the name
    somewhere in some magazine article - or maybe on a box of
    Coco-Puffs - they can't remember which. I've seen the code they
    produce and it's a wonder that it ever got past a compiler (often
    not), much less actually runs or even less likely, produces the
    desired result. I've seen "Ada Consultants" who could be
    outsmarted/outprogrammed by a small soap dish and who had an I.Q.
    only slightly lower than that of a bag of hammers.

    The answer? You get what you pay for. Often, the interest in
    consultants is A) "I need a warm body here to round out the body
    quota I've got for the contract & the "real" programmers can make
    up for the damage done by the warm body." B) "Current corporate
    wisdom is that we need to outsource X% of our work and this
    inexpensive "box of rocks" with a contractor badge counts for my
    outsource percentage without destroying my budget." C) "Engineers
    are a commodity that we buy by the pallet-load down at Costco and
    one's pretty much the same as any other." D) Some combination of
    all of the above.

    It makes me wonder just exactly how much money I could get given
    the quality of my resume if I were to lean up against a lamp post
    saying "Hello sailor. New in town?"

    MDC

Marin David Condic, Senior Computer Engineer     ATT:        561.796.8997
Pratt & Whitney GESP, M/S 731-96, P.O.B. 109600  Fax:        561.796.4669
West Palm Beach, FL, 33410-9600                  Internet:   CONDICMA@PWFL.COM
===============================================================================
    "You spend a billion here and a billion there. Sooner or later it
    adds up to real money."

        --  Everett Dirksen
===============================================================================

Re: A New Low for NASA? (was HELP!!!!!!)

[Robin Reagan]

Pat Rogers wrote in article <01bc7801$b70b4200$500d6dce@my-pc.neosoft.com>..
.
>EricFerg <ericferg@aol.com> wrote in article
><19970613010900.VAA03816@ladder02.news.aol.com>...
>
>[snip]
>
>> Millions of lines of Ada code are already helping to prepare, launch,
>> track, and operate each Space Shuttle.
>
>If there is _any_ Ada, anywhere, having anything to do with Shuttle, I
>would be thrilled to hear about it.  Can you be specific?
>
>

I worked on the Shuttle Training Aircraft Ada conversion project from
'91-'95. We converted the old assembly flight code to Ada. I think this
amounted to about 50K lines of Ada + ~5K lines of support code in 68K
assembly. The astronauts fly this modified business jet to practice landing
the space shuttle. The aircraft has thrust reversers that deploy in-flight
so it can decend at ~17-21 degrees like the shuttle without accelerating.
The shuttle is not very areodynamic and so it drops like a rock (brick).
 

Re: A New Low for NASA? (was HELP!!!!!!)

[EricFerg]

Before taking the original message too seriously, consider the fact that
there are several other organizations (in the U.S. and abroad) that are
tracking space debris, not the least of which are the DoD's US Space
Command and North American Aerospace Defense Command.  These two
organizations share such info with other debris trackers and space launch
facilities (e.g., Arianespace of France and the European Space Agency).

I doubt _very seriously_ that the NASA would retain the services of
contractors who hire "programmers" and "engineers" who don't have formal
educations for such mission critical (i.e., life-and-death) work. 
Millions of lines of Ada code are already helping to prepare, launch,
track, and operate each Space Shuttle.

Re: A New Low for NASA? (was HELP!!!!!!)

[Pat Rogers]

EricFerg <ericferg@aol.com> wrote in article
<19970613010900.VAA03816@ladder02.news.aol.com>...

[snip]
 
> Millions of lines of Ada code are already helping to prepare, launch,
> track, and operate each Space Shuttle.

If there is _any_ Ada, anywhere, having anything to do with Shuttle, I
would be thrilled to hear about it.  Can you be specific?

Re: A New Low for NASA? (was HELP!!!!!!)

[Robert I. Eachus]

    Since I have supported the project in the past, and just got a
status report yesterday, let me clear up a few (public) things.

    First the project is GMP (GEODSS Modernization Program) and has
little or nothing to do with NASA.  GEODSS is an Air Force Space
Command program.  Second, whoever this is is apparently hiring for a
sub-contractor.  Third, from what I understand in the Colorado
Springs area, MCI is hiring every (competent) Ada programmer for
non-defense related projects.  GMP is not the only project that is
having problems.  (So when you see people talking about a shortage of
qualified Ada programmers, they may have a specific area of the
country in mind.)



--

					Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...

Re: A New Low for NASA? (was HELP!!!!!!)

[Spam Hater]

> >It would be nice if you had a formal education but not required. The
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> 
> Good God man!  NASA wants to avoid hitting space debris and a formal
> education would be *NICE*.  Has NASA really hit a new low?

At the risk of sounding like I agree with <name withheld>, I'd 
rather hire a decent programmer with a brain than a college graduate. 
IFF I couldn't get both in the same body.

-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------
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Senior Software Engineer - AFATDS                  Tool-smith Wanna-be

Don't send advertisements to this domain unless asked!  All disk space
on fw.hac.com hosts belongs to either Hughes Defense Communications or 
the United States government.  Using email to store YOUR advertising 
on them is trespassing!
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: A New Low for NASA? (was HELP!!!!!!)

[Marin David Condic, 561.796.8997, M/S 731-93]

kgamble <kgamble@RICOCHET.NET> writes:
>
>Seen many cases of consultant's code that had to be discarded or
>drastically revamped because it just couldn't meet the optimization
>requirements that are usually impossed for tight embedded systems. This is
>especially true in the 1750 processor world.
>
    Well, I wouldn't have so much problem with someone who wasn't
    coding "to standards", because I might take that more as an
    indication that I wasn't doing *my* job right. I'd think that any
    consultant/job-shopper/hired-gun that comes in the door would need
    to be treated like any other new employee: It's my job to get them
    up to speed and understanding about what we're trying to do and
    how we're going about it, etc. If they remain stubborn or try to
    do things in some revolutionary kind of way in spite of being
    filled in on what we're really looking for, then maybe they are
    destined for some "attitude readjustment".

    My *real* complaint is when we end up hiring consultants who don't
    seem to understand even the fundamentals of programming, much less
    Ada programming. It all seems to stem back to "you get what you
    pay for" and this is why I'm not too suprised that a company would
    be out trying to hire Ada programmers where a "formal education"
    is "optional".

    MDC

Marin David Condic, Senior Computer Engineer     ATT:        561.796.8997
Pratt & Whitney GESP, M/S 731-96, P.O.B. 109600  Fax:        561.796.4669
West Palm Beach, FL, 33410-9600                  Internet:   CONDICMA@PWFL.COM
===============================================================================
    "You spend a billion here and a billion there. Sooner or later it
    adds up to real money."

        --  Everett Dirksen
===============================================================================