Re: Off topic response to an off topic message--> was:Re: Software Engineering and Dreamers

Re: Off topic response to an off topic message--> was:Re: Software Engineering and Dreamers

[Jon S Anthony]

In article <5n45ou$cio@squire.cen.brad.ac.uk> cgrussel@bradford.ac.uk (Vibrating Bum-Faced Goats) writes:

> What I'm trying to say here is that it could be argued (by me amongst 
> others) that the relationships between objects and phenomena exist 
> anyway. Mathematics is the ongoing creation of a extraordinarily rich and 
> diverse language which enables us to express those relationships. A 
> mathematician is creating a tool for scientists and engineers alike. It 
> may require a mathematician to make use of that tool at times but, at 
> it's very core, tool creation is what I believe to be the essence of maths.

Spoken like an engineer.  I don't think many scientists would actually
say this sort of thing.

Go read G.H.Hardy's _A Mathematician's Apology_.  Considering that (in
my experience anyway), the (vast) majority of mathematicians hold
basically the views expressed there, you will immediately see what a
"hornet's nest" you have just kicked.


> I don't see it as being different from any other language in that it 

You're still kicking...


> Distant unknown planets do not crash into their sun because no one there 
> has *discovered* the inverse square law. That relationship continues 
> to exist in a form unexpressable to the local inhabitants. 

So - how do you feel about the "Copenhagen interpretation" of QM?
Bohr's notion of "complimentarity"?  Just curious...


/Jon
-- 
Jon Anthony
Organon Motives, Inc.
Belmont, MA 02178
617.484.3383
jsa@organon.com

Re: Off topic response to an off topic message--> was:Re: Software Engineering and Dreamers

[H. Blakely Williford]

Jon S Anthony wrote:
> 
> In article <5n45ou$cio@squire.cen.brad.ac.uk> cgrussel@bradford.ac.uk (Vibrating Bum-Faced Goats) writes:
> 
> > What I'm trying to say here is that it could be argued (by me amongst
> > others) that the relationships between objects and phenomena exist
> > anyway. Mathematics is the ongoing creation of a extraordinarily rich and
> > diverse language which enables us to express those relationships. A
> > mathematician is creating a tool for scientists and engineers alike. It
> > may require a mathematician to make use of that tool at times but, at
> > it's very core, tool creation is what I believe to be the essence of maths.

So is mathematicis like an adjective?
 
> Spoken like an engineer.  I don't think many scientists would actually
> say this sort of thing.
> 
> Go read G.H.Hardy's _A Mathematician's Apology_.  Considering that (in
> my experience anyway), the (vast) majority of mathematicians hold
> basically the views expressed there, you will immediately see what a
> "hornet's nest" you have just kicked.
> 
> > I don't see it as being different from any other language in that it
> 
> You're still kicking...
> 

is there such thing as mathematical poetry?  That is poetry not made
up as words, but of pure mathematical thought?  Could 1 + 1 = 2 be
a poem, or is it just a statement?

Men never do evil so completely and
cheerfully  as when they do it from
religious conviction.     -- Pascal

Re: Any research putting c above ada?

[Jon S Anthony]

In article <Pine.SGI.3.95L.970514190923.17085C-100000@tower.york.ac.uk> T Wheeley <tw104@york.ac.uk> writes:

> On 2 May 1997, Jon S Anthony wrote:
> 
> > In article <3369FCAF.41C6@cca.rockwell.com> Roy Grimm <ragrimm@cca.rockwell.com> writes:
> > 
> > > "We're teaching Computer Science here.  If you want engineering, go to
> > > an engineering school."  That's the prevailing attitude with many of the
> > > CompSci programs at small liberal arts colleges.  They teach the
> > > "science" of programming almost as a subfield of Mathematics.  The
> > 
> > This is actually very apropos to the problem.  Most of what passes as
> > so called "computer science" is just watered down mathematics -
> > discrete mathematics (asymptotic algorithm analysis is fundamentally
> > various techniques of counting, i.e., a bit of combinatorics) and some
> > bits of formal logics (which is where the oft mentioned "halting
> > problem" and such comes from.)  Take this away and you don't have much
> > left - unless you have the _application_ of that mathematics, i.e.,
> > software engineering.
> > 
> > Well, there is the AI camp, but there too, if you look at what much of
> > this is, it's being/been covered by philosophers and CogScis (and
> > often with rather more perspicacity).
> 
> Well then let's not bother teaching computer science at all!  Why not just

Sounds like a good idea to me.


> make people do Maths + Philosophy degrees.  Yes it's the same stuff, but
> don't Physics and Chemistry both cover atoms and electron shells?  Don't
> both Biology and Chemistry cover Biological Chemistry?

Incorrect analogies.  These are all sciences which have their own core
subject which is well delineated.  The fact that they borrow from
ideas in other related sciences is irrelevant.  The point is that CS
has no such core subject area - _all_ it has is borrowed and then
watered down from other disciplines.


> The fact is that a CS degree combines all these factors into a single
> degree related to the study of computers, and puts them in the correct
> context.

This would be the start of something that made sense if the core
subject was _engineering software artifacts_.


> Yes the idea of dominance in sequences is part of computer science,
> but they way I was taught it in maths is not particularly relvant to
> the complexity of algorithms.

This sounds irrelevant.  _Counting_ is the core of complexity analysis
and that is a part of Combinatorics.  _Applying_ the various relevant
results of Combinatorics to _engineering_ problems in software is
perfectly sensible.  Attempting to dream up new ways of counting or
more sophisticated ways, or ways that handle new situations or
whatever is Combinatorics - not CS.


> Unless you have a very good understanding of the principles behind
> the maths in a maths degree, it will take you a lot of experience to
> become a good programmer (e.g. Knuth)

I seriously doubt this (as it is written).  As an example, exactly how
does understanding the ideas behind the proof of Quadratic Reciprocity
help you in "programming"??  How does an understanding of the topology
of the linear continuum needed to understand a proof of the FTC help
you in "programming"?  As far as that goes, how does a understanding
of the notions underlying FTC help?  Schroder-Bernstein theorem?  No
other engineering discipline needs this sort of understanding.  Heck,
no other _science_ needs this level of understanding.

 
> Of course there is a strong element of theory in CS degrees -- they want
> to get good research students to boost the department's standing against
> other universities, but you would have to have a poor department or be a
> poor student if you didn't pick up some of the fundamentals of good
> software design.

I think you just crossed over into Jay Martin flamage land - prepare
to be blow torched! :-)

/Jon
-- 
Jon Anthony
Organon Motives, Inc.
Belmont, MA 02178
617.484.3383
jsa@organon.com

Re: Software Engineering and Dreamers

[Robert I. Eachus]

In article <01bc66fa$ee7910e0$LocalHost@xhv46.dial.pipex.com> "Nick Roberts" <Nick.Roberts@dial.pipex.com> writes:

  > This sense of realism is excellent, and is frequently the one thing that
  > makes the difference between a project that succeeds, and one which fails.
  > And let's face it, the software industry has had its fair share of failed
  > projects, has it not?

  > However, I would argue that there is sometimes a flip side to this realism,
  > in the engineering sciences in general, and computer science in particular.
  > All (or almost all) the really great leaps forward in computer technology
  > have come not from great, expensive, laboratories, engaged in highly
  > directed (commercially orientated) research, but instead from a motley
  > collection of scatter-brained individuals who had _imagination_.

   Another facet of software engineering, and actually demonstrated in
the project above.  The synchronization problem is with a new system,
and build 2 needs to provide all the capabilities of the currently
fielded system AND integrate with the new system.  Enough complexity
that you don't want any more.  But build three has room for all the
customer wants, and new technology.

   So in this case the build one design has to support evolution,
build two is required to integrate with a system that does not yet
exist, and build three has room for all the bells and whistles that
the original design allows.  Quite a spectrum, and a need to keep
focused on today's goal.

  > These 'dreamers' may never have been practical or realistic. But they
  > invented the science.

   Noting wrong with dreaming, and in fact the project manager was
reacting to features/hooks in the design which are there to support
evolution.  Our job was to convince him that they were needed--but
were for use much later.
--

					Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...

Re: Software Engineering and Dreamers

[Kaz Kylheku]

In article <EACHUS.97May23174831@spectre.mitre.org>,
Robert I. Eachus <eachus@spectre.mitre.org> wrote:
>   Another facet of software engineering, and actually demonstrated in
>the project above.  The synchronization problem is with a new system,
>and build 2 needs to provide all the capabilities of the currently
>fielded system AND integrate with the new system.  Enough complexity
>that you don't want any more.  But build three has room for all the
>customer wants, and new technology.

That's another pet peeve of mine: using ``technology'' with reference to
software. I've noticed that some hardware manfuacturers have been using the
term ``hardware technology'' in their marketing propaganda since it's no
longer understood what the word really means.

Software is not technology; the stuff that it runs on is technology.

Re: Software Engineering and Dreamers

[Fritz W Feuerbacher]

Kaz Kylheku (kaz@vision.crest.nt.com) wrote:

: Software is not technology; the stuff that it runs on is technology.

So the concept of Software Engineering Technology is not a technology?  I
believe your wrong.

Re: Software Engineering and Dreamers

[Kaz Kylheku]

In article <5mcp5o$ei7$3@news.cc.ucf.edu>,
Fritz W Feuerbacher <fwf27775@pegasus.cc.ucf.edu> wrote:
>Kaz Kylheku (kaz@vision.crest.nt.com) wrote:
>
>: Software is not technology; the stuff that it runs on is technology.
>
>So the concept of Software Engineering Technology is not a technology?  I

The concept of software engineering is flawed to begin with. Engineering is
the application of physics to produce technology. 

If physics is not involved, you aren't producing technology, nor are you
doing engineering.

Examples: writing software is not engineering, and the result is not
technology, because principles of physics are not required to understand the
internal semantics of software systems. Designing a pure logic circuit isn't
engineering either, except when you have to solve implementation problems
related to heat dissipation, capacitive or inductive coupling and other
artifacts related to the _technology_.

Re: Software Engineering and Dreamers

[Vibrating Bum-Faced Goats]

Kaz Kylheku (kaz@vision.crest.nt.com) wrote:
: In article <5mcp5o$ei7$3@news.cc.ucf.edu>,
: Fritz W Feuerbacher <fwf27775@pegasus.cc.ucf.edu> wrote:
: >Kaz Kylheku (kaz@vision.crest.nt.com) wrote:
: >
: >: Software is not technology; the stuff that it runs on is technology.
: >
: >So the concept of Software Engineering Technology is not a technology?  I

: The concept of software engineering is flawed to begin with. Engineering is
: the application of physics to produce technology. 

: If physics is not involved, you aren't producing technology, nor are you
: doing engineering.

: Examples: writing software is not engineering, and the result is not
: technology, because principles of physics are not required to understand the
: internal semantics of software systems. Designing a pure logic circuit isn't
: engineering either, except when you have to solve implementation problems
: related to heat dissipation, capacitive or inductive coupling and other
: artifacts related to the _technology_.

My take is this:

Science, be it physics, chemistry, biology or whatever, is an attempt to 
discover the laws and principles which govern the existence of "things". 
"Things" can be natural phenomena or a phenomenon exhibiting certain  
behaviour which is defineable at whatever level. It's basically an 
attempt to explain the way things, any things, work. 

Engineering is the design and manufacture of "things" to suit a 
pre-defined need. "Things" can be physical objects designed to harness 
natural phenomena or they can be software operating in a man made 
environment such as a computer. If the evolution of a "thing" coming into 
existence involved a specification, a design process and an 
implementation then by my definition one could say it has been 
'engineered'. 

Mathematics exists in the mind alone. It is the process of discovering 
and describing precisely by symbolic means various kinds of facts and 
relationships. It is the process of implementing a rich "language" which 
enables scientists to express their ideas and engineers to model the 
behviour of their phenomena-harnessing implementations of those ideas.

In short:

The mathematician builds the hammer, the scientist writes the instruction 
manual and the engineer just likes to sit there maniacally hitting things 
with it. :^)

I would say, however, a computer scientist / engineer doesn't fit quite so 
easily into any of the above pidgeon holes. Civil engineers, electrical / 
electronic engineers, etc all have to work with the physical environment 
as it exists. A guy who builds a bridge cannot decide that he wants 
gravity to work sideways and save money on those nuts for the horizontal 
bolts. If a computer scientist / engineer decides that, to suit his or 
her specification best, a different architecture or operating system 
philosophy is required then that option is always open. 

I've forgotten who I'm agreeing with now. :^)

--
Chris Russell           | Bradford Bulls - Wembley 1997
Electronic Imaging Unit | 
University of Bradford  | Tough on St.Helens
TEL: +44 1274 385463    | Tough on the causes of St.Helens.

Re: Software Engineering and Dreamers

[Jon S Anthony]

In article <5mmvgj$61k@squire.cen.brad.ac.uk> cgrussel@bradford.ac.uk (Vibrating Bum-Faced Goats) writes:

> Mathematics exists in the mind alone.

You would get some pretty heated disagreement over this from many
mathematicians and philosophers (you would also get a number lining up
on your side...)  Of course, this just punts the problem to the issue
of "what is mind" - which is even more inflammatory.


> It is the process of discovering and describing precisely by
> symbolic means various kinds of facts and relationships.

<playing one of those who would disagree with the above bit>: OK, so
what do these "facts" and "relationships" concern?  What are they
about?  Of what are they facts and relationships??  Sounds like
something "out there"...


> I've forgotten who I'm agreeing with now. :^)

:-)!!

/Jon
-- 
Jon Anthony
Organon Motives, Inc.
Belmont, MA 02178
617.484.3383
jsa@organon.com

Re: Off topic response to an off topic message--> was:Re: Software Engineering and Dreamers

[H. Blakely Williford]

Dann Corbit wrote:
> (Vibrating Bum-Faced Goats) writes:
> >
> > > Mathematics exists in the mind alone.

can you look at a sun rise and say this?

the way the particles in the upper atmosphere refract the light?

-- 
H. Blakely Williford             | Men never do evil so completely and
Systems Administrator/Programmer | cheerfully  as when they do it from
The Fuller Brush Company         | religious conviction.     -- Pascal

Re: Off topic response to an off topic message--> was:Re: Software Engineering and Dreamers

[Craig Franck]

"H. Blakely Williford" <blakew@fuller.com> wrote:
>Dann Corbit wrote:
>> (Vibrating Bum-Faced Goats) writes:
>> >
>> > > Mathematics exists in the mind alone.
>
>can you look at a sun rise and say this?
>
>the way the particles in the upper atmosphere refract the light?

You are not helping the cause any. Color arises from how are brains
process light, and does not exist independently of our perceiving it.
Because of this, it is clearly only in our minds even more than math
is. I think Mr. Goats point can be made clearer once you realize that 
math is about symbols and how you can transform them into one another.
"2 + 2 = 4" seems to be expressing a relationship of some sort that 
exists externally in nature, but what it means and how we interpret 
is actually quite close to how we process langauge. You wouldn't say 
English exists in nature, and is not solely the product of our brains, 
just because you can point to a big leafy green thing and say "tree".
It is not like the word "tree" was laying about, just waiting to be
discovered, any more than the symbol "2" was. In this sense (and in
many others as well) math is a product of our brains.

-- 
Craig
clfranck@worldnet.att.net
Manchester, NH
I don't pretend to understand the universe, it is
a great deal bigger than I am. -- Thomas Carlyle

Re: Off topic response to an off topic message--> was:Re: Software Engineering and Dreamers

[Spaceman Spiff]

Craig Franck wrote:
> "H. Blakely Williford" <blakew@fuller.com> wrote:
> >the way the particles in the upper atmosphere refract the light?
> 
> You are not helping the cause any. Color arises from how are brains
> process light, and does not exist independently of our perceiving it.

Sorry, Craig, you got this wrong.
Light of different colors is light of different frequencies.
The frequency of light emitted by some atom, does, in fact, 
exist independent of our brains. It's called hertz.

Using your argument, only the word "color" is dependent upon
out brains to interpret it (as you point out below).

> Because of this, it is clearly only in our minds even more than math
> is. I think Mr. Goats point can be made clearer once you realize that
> math is about symbols and how you can transform them into one another.
> "2 + 2 = 4" seems to be expressing a relationship of some sort that
> exists externally in nature, but what it means and how we interpret
> is actually quite close to how we process langauge. You wouldn't say
> English exists in nature, and is not solely the product of our brains,
> just because you can point to a big leafy green thing and say "tree".
> It is not like the word "tree" was laying about, just waiting to be
> discovered, any more than the symbol "2" was. In this sense (and in
> many others as well) math is a product of our brains.
> 
> --
> Craig
> clfranck@worldnet.att.net
> Manchester, NH
> I don't pretend to understand the universe, it is
> a great deal bigger than I am. -- Thomas Carlyle

Re: Off topic response to an off topic message--> was:Re: Software Engineering and Dreamers

[Kaz Kylheku]

In article <3394E51B.7A5A@flash.net>,
Spaceman Spiff  <csweber@flash.net> wrote:
>Craig Franck wrote:
>> "H. Blakely Williford" <blakew@fuller.com> wrote:
>> >the way the particles in the upper atmosphere refract the light?
>> 
>> You are not helping the cause any. Color arises from how are brains
>> process light, and does not exist independently of our perceiving it.
>
>Sorry, Craig, you got this wrong.
>Light of different colors is light of different frequencies.

That is false, Spiff.  Colors can be perceived as a result of a pure frequency
or as a result of the mixture of two or more frequencies. The eye only responds
to two or three different regions of the spectrum. This is why only three
different kinds of phosphor elements in a CRT display are able to reproduce
such a wide variety of hues.

>The frequency of light emitted by some atom, does, in fact, 
>exist independent of our brains. It's called hertz.

From this it does not follow that every brain perceives color in the same way,
or that color exists independently of the observer. I don't see the necessary
connection between frequency and the sensation of color.

Re: Off topic response to an off topic message--> was:Re: Software Engineering and Dreamers

[Ceri Stagg]

|> > Because of this, it is clearly only in our minds even more than math
|> > is. I think Mr. Goats point can be made clearer once you realize that
|> > math is about symbols and how you can transform them into one another.
|> > "2 + 2 = 4" seems to be expressing a relationship of some sort that
|> > exists externally in nature, but what it means and how we interpret
|> > is actually quite close to how we process langauge. You wouldn't say
|> > English exists in nature, and is not solely the product of our brains,
|> > just because you can point to a big leafy green thing and say "tree".
|> > It is not like the word "tree" was laying about, just waiting to be
|> > discovered, any more than the symbol "2" was. In this sense (and in
|> > many others as well) math is a product of our brains.

I think a distinction should be made between NUMBERS and NUMERALS. Our
mathematical system's rules are not arbitrary, they have been chosen
because of their mapping to the laws of numbers we see in nature,
e.g. if we have 4 things (I mean the number 4, not the numeral) and
remove 2, we clearly have only 2 remaining. Admittedly, maths is not a
science per se because most of it deals with platonic ideas that
cannot be directly seen or touched, making it trickier to get a handle
on in these areas than e.g. physics, but I think it's wrong to suggest
that something like the Mandelbrot set doesn't exist outside people's
minds.....surely the Mandelbrot set is a discovery, not an invention?
I don't think mathematical systems can have the arbitrariness of
languages. The numerals and symbols can be arbitrary, but their
transformation rules MUST consistently map onto and track the
relationships of numbers. But getting your head around the
verifications involved in this is indeed tricky stuff......


        ____
   ____/....\____	C.P.Stagg
  |____	Ceri ____|      ------------------
    /  \____/  \	ceris@dai.ed.ac.uk
  """"""""""""""""	

Re: Off topic response to an off topic message--> was:Re: Software Engineering and Dreamers

[Philip Brashear]

OK, I finally got sucked into this maelstrom.

Why are people talking about numbers so much?  There seems to be a strong
impression that mathematics = the study of numbers.  No, that's 
arithmetic.

Mathematics is the study of logical implication: one puts up a set of
postulates and studies the theorems (implications) that result.

Some of these postulates concern these "number" things (like Peano's
postulates).  Others concern these "geometric" things (like several
people's attempts to perfect Euclid's postulates).  Others concern
things with no obvious relation to observable reality.  (The latter
are often the most interesting and turn out to have great impact on
the "real" world.  Talk about serendipity!)

When I was working on that elusive Ph.D. in math, my field was
topological algebra (as distinguished from algebraic topology).
I REALLY didn't deal with numeric concepts.

Phil Brashear

Re: Off topic response to an off topic message--> was:Re: Software Engineering and Dreamers

[Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz]

Philip Brashear wrote:
> 
> When I was working on that elusive Ph.D. in math, my field was
> topological algebra (as distinguished from algebraic topology).

So do you crack a smile when the Unix folks talk about filters?

> Phil Brashear

-- 

                        Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
                        Senior Software SE

The values in from and reply-to are for the benefit of spammers:
reply to domain eds.com, user msustys1.smetz or to domain gsg.eds.com,
user smetz.

Re: Off topic response to an off topic message--> was:Re: Software Engineering and Dreamers

[Robert Dewar]

spaceman says

<<Sorry, Craig, you got this wrong.
Light of different colors is light of different frequencies.
The frequency of light emitted by some atom, does, in fact, 
exist independent of our brains. It's called hertz.
 
Using your argument, only the word "color" is dependent upon
out brains to interpret it (as you point out below).>>


That's wrong. Wavelength is wavelength, color is color. There is a relation
but it is not nearly as close as you seem to think. Color is definitely
about perception. You can perceive color even though no light of the
relevant wavelength is present. the Land two color experiments (and many
other similar experiments) show this conclusively.

Re: Off topic response to an off topic message--> was:Re: Software Engineering and Dreamers

[Vibrating Bum-Faced Goats]

Craig Franck (clfranck@worldnet.att.net) wrote:
: "H. Blakely Williford" <blakew@fuller.com> wrote:
: >Dann Corbit wrote:
: >> (Vibrating Bum-Faced Goats) writes:
: >> >
: >> > > Mathematics exists in the mind alone.
: >
: >can you look at a sun rise and say this?
: >
: >the way the particles in the upper atmosphere refract the light?

: You are not helping the cause any. Color arises from how are brains
: process light, and does not exist independently of our perceiving it.

<SNIP>

: It is not like the word "tree" was laying about, just waiting to be
: discovered, any more than the symbol "2" was. In this sense (and in
: many others as well) math is a product of our brains.

That's exactly what I'm trying to say. 

--
Chris Russell           | Bradford Bulls - Wembley 1997
Electronic Imaging Unit | 
University of Bradford  | Tough on St.Helens
TEL: +44 1274 385463    | Tough on the causes of St.Helens.

Re: Off topic response to an off topic message--> was:Re: Software Engineering and Dreamers

[Vibrating Bum-Faced Goats]

Dann Corbit (dcorbit@solutionsiq.com) wrote:
: Jon S Anthony <jsa@alexandria> wrote in article
: <JSA.97Jun2174143@alexandria>...
: > In article <5mmvgj$61k@squire.cen.brad.ac.uk> cgrussel@bradford.ac.uk
: (Vibrating Bum-Faced Goats) writes:
: > 
: > > Mathematics exists in the mind alone.
: > 
: > You would get some pretty heated disagreement over this from many
: > mathematicians and philosophers (you would also get a number lining up
: > on your side...)  Of course, this just punts the problem to the issue
: > of "what is mind" - which is even more inflammatory.

Oh dear. In an attempt to give my view of an apparant stretching of a 
word's definition I seem to have done the same thing. :^)

: Here is some real flame bait [addressed primarily to Mr. 'Vibrating' ;-)]: 

Actually Vibrating is my first name. You may call me Vibrating but for 
correctness above it would be Mr.Goats. :^)

: If math exists in the mind alone, does a stupid person and a smart one have
: a different set of mathematics rules that apply to them?  What about a
: planet with no people on it, and we are not aware of it?  Must it plummet
: into its star, since there is no math available to make it obey the inverse
: square law?  

Well, I recently posted this in another newsgroup 
(rec.sport.rugby.league, strange as it may seem) which may answer the 
question:

>> <Pedantic mode on>
>>
>> Immeasurable phenomena do not disappear with a puff of logic, they remain
>> unquantifiable (if there is such a word) until such time as a means of
>> measuring that phenomena is discovered.
>>
>> <Pedantic mode off>

In otherwords, just because we do not know of something or are unable to 
comprehend it does not mean such a thing does not exist. 

<Dogs doing calculus in their heads to catch balls snipped for brevity ;^) >

Now then, the defintion I attribute to mathematics I laid out like 
this: 

>> Mathematics exists in the mind alone. It is the process of discovering 
>> and describing precisely by symbolic means various kinds of facts and 
>> relationships. It is the process of implementing a rich "language" which 
>> enables scientists to express their ideas and engineers to model the 
>> behviour of their phenomena-harnessing implementations of those ideas.

What I'm trying to say here is that it could be argued (by me amongst 
others) that the relationships between objects and phenomena exist 
anyway. Mathematics is the ongoing creation of a extraordinarily rich and 
diverse language which enables us to express those relationships. A 
mathematician is creating a tool for scientists and engineers alike. It 
may require a mathematician to make use of that tool at times but, at 
it's very core, tool creation is what I believe to be the essence of maths.

I don't see it as being different from any other language in that it 
enables us to get a particular idea or point of view across. It often 
does so with more success than I do with English, but there I digress. :^)

Distant unknown planets do not crash into their sun because no one there 
has *discovered* the inverse square law. That relationship continues 
to exist in a form unexpressable to the local inhabitants. 

That is what I meant by saying "Mathematics exists in the mind alone". 
The relationships and properties are already there but the language 
used to describe them is a human creation.

: The universe does not revolve around the human race.  The human race is a
: miniscule part of the universe.  We do not manufacture the mathematical and
: physical laws.  Why must people constantly place themselves as the bright,
: shining core of existence?

I do not, not by any stretch of the imagination. I'm quite sure that my 
comprehension of the universe we live in is inexplicably small in 
relation to the size of that universe. As such I'm quite happy to be 
talked out of a point of view if I can be convinced I'm on the wrong 
track. 

Cheers,
Chris.

--
Chris Russell           | Bradford Bulls - Wembley 1997
Electronic Imaging Unit | 
University of Bradford  | Tough on St.Helens
TEL: +44 1274 385463    | Tough on the causes of St.Helens.

Re: Off topic response to an off topic message--> was:Re: Software Engineering and Dreamers

[�Stephen!]

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Vibrating Bum-Faced Goats wrote:
> 
> Dann Corbit (dcorbit@solutionsiq.com) wrote:
> : Jon S Anthony <jsa@alexandria> wrote in article
> : <JSA.97Jun2174143@alexandria>...
> : > In article <5mmvgj$61k@squire.cen.brad.ac.uk> cgrussel@bradford.ac.uk
> : (Vibrating Bum-Faced Goats) writes:
> In otherwords, just because we do not know of something or are unable to
> comprehend it does not mean such a thing does not exist.

	Little kids don't know what gravity is, but when they fall down...

> What I'm trying to say here is that it could be argued (by me amongst
> others) that the relationships between objects and phenomena exist
> anyway. Mathematics is the ongoing creation of a extraordinarily rich and
> diverse language which enables us to express those relationships. A
> mathematician is creating a tool for scientists and engineers alike. It
> may require a mathematician to make use of that tool at times but, at
> it's very core, tool creation is what I believe to be the essence of maths.

	I like to think of mathematics as a means of expressing the
relationships between numbers. The angles of a square, the lengths of
the sides of a pentagon, even the relationships between musical notes
can be expressed as a pattern of numbers. C4 is 12 notes from C5 is a
perfectly valid mathmatical statement. Programming is merely a way of
expressing the relationships between a computer and the outside world.

<snip>

> 
> That is what I meant by saying "Mathematics exists in the mind alone".
> The relationships and properties are already there but the language
> used to describe them is a human creation.

	One is a totally arbitrary name. It may be called "Throbene" for all it
matters, it is merely a way of expressing the number. The names for the
numbers are a human invention, the numbers themselves are not.

<snip>

	Math is similar to English in this respect. The object exists whether
you call it "water", "aqua", etc. To quote Shakespeare "A rose by any
other name smells just as sweet..."

-- 
�Stephen!
Maintainer of the Punk and Metal Midi Archives
	http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/4063/index.html

"Just the thoughts of a disillusioned teen..."

Re: Off topic response to an off topic message--> was:Re: Software Engineering and Dreamers

[Kaz Kylheku]

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In article <3395FF96.107E@ionaprep.pvt.k12.ny.us>,
�Stephen! <99borns@ionaprep.pvt.k12.ny.us> wrote:
>	I like to think of mathematics as a means of expressing the
>relationships between numbers. The angles of a square, the lengths of

Not broad enough. There exist plenty of abstract mathematical entities with
interesting formal properties that are nevertheless not numbers.

>	One is a totally arbitrary name. It may be called "Throbene" for all it
>matters, it is merely a way of expressing the number. The names for the
>numbers are a human invention, the numbers themselves are not.

You are making a mere philosophical hypothesis here.

Re: Off topic response to an off topic message--> was:Re: Software Engineering and Dreamers

[Volker Hetzer]

Kaz Kylheku wrote:
> =

> In article <3395FF96.107E@ionaprep.pvt.k12.ny.us>,
> =A1Stephen! <99borns@ionaprep.pvt.k12.ny.us> wrote:
> >       One is a totally arbitrary name. It may be called "Throbene" fo=
r all it
> >matters, it is merely a way of expressing the number. The names for th=
e
> >numbers are a human invention, the numbers themselves are not.
Try to see it that way:
Without minds to think, there would be no numbers. Of course there would
still be one earth, but the abstcraction from the planet to the number 1
would
not be made. But that abstraction is what mathematics is about.
Therefore: No mind, no mathematics.

Volker

Re: Off topic response to an off topic message--> was:Re: Software Engineering and Dreamers

[Philip Hindman]

Phil Berman wrote:
> 
> My response to this question has always been this:
> Question #1: What does a tree do when it falls and someone IS around to
> hear it?
> Answer: It makes a sound.
> 
> Question #2: How does the presence or absence of an observer affect the
> falling tree?
> Answer: It doesn't make a bit of difference.
> 
> Conclusion: The tree makes a sound when it falls.

Yes, but how do you _know_ someone the presence or absence of a 
human being does not affect it?  See Heisenberg's uncertainty 
principle.  
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------
| Philip Hindman      |  "We _mock_ what we do not understand." |
| Cylon@ou.edu        |                        Dan Akroyd       |
| The not-so-newbie   |                        "Spies Like Us"  |
| student programmer  |                                         |
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Re: Off topic response to an off topic message--> was:Re: Software Engineering and Dreamers

[Spam Hater]

> Question #1: What does a tree do when it falls and someone IS around 
> to hear it?
> Answer: It makes a sound.

Define Sound.

> Question #2: How does the presence or absence of an observer affect 
> the falling tree?
> Answer: It doesn't make a bit of difference.

Do you have empirical evidence for this?

Is this getting ridiculous or what?

-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------
    Wes Groleau, Hughes Defense Communications, Fort Wayne, IN USA
Senior Software Engineer - AFATDS                  Tool-smith Wanna-be

Don't send advertisements to this domain unless asked!  All disk space
on fw.hac.com hosts belongs to either Hughes Defense Communications or 
the United States government.  Using email to store YOUR advertising 
on them is trespassing!
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: Off topic response to an off topic message--> was:Re: Software Engineering and Dreamers

[Spaceman Spiff]

Spam Hater wrote:

> > Question #1: What does a tree do when it falls and someone IS around
> > to hear it?
> > Answer: It makes a sound.
> 
> Define Sound.

A wave of compression a rarefration of gas molecules caused by
any mechanical action.
 
> > Question #2: How does the presence or absence of an observer affect
> > the falling tree?
> > Answer: It doesn't make a bit of difference.
> 
> Do you have empirical evidence for this?

He can't, there was no one to observe it.
 
> Is this getting ridiculous or what?

Yes, it is.
When you know what happened to Schrodinger's cat, 
then let us know...

-Scotty

Re: Off topic response to an off topic message--> was:Re: Software Engineering and Dreamers

[Stephan Wilms]

Spaceman Spiff wrote:
> 
> Spam Hater wrote:
> 
> > Is this getting ridiculous or what?
> 
> Yes, it is.
> When you know what happened to Schrodinger's cat,
> then let us know...

It was abducted by aliens and adopted by Elvis

Stephan

Re: Off topic response to an off topic message--> was:Re: Software Engineering and Dreamers

[Spam Hater]

Spaceman Spiff wrote:
> 
> > Is this getting ridiculous or what?
> 
> Yes, it is.
> When you know what happened to Schrodinger's cat,
> then let us know...

Schrodinger fastened a piece of toast to the cat's back and dropped it.
Since a cat must always land on its feet, and a piece of toast must
always land buttered side down, the only way to resolve the impasse
was for the cat (without the fiddle) to follow the cow to the moon.

With hopes of antigravity, Schrodinger tried to duplicate the
experiment, with another cat, but so far has been unable to get a cat
to hold still long enough.


-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------
    Wes Groleau, Hughes Defense Communications, Fort Wayne, IN USA
Senior Software Engineer - AFATDS                  Tool-smith Wanna-be
                    wwgrol AT pseserv3.fw.hac.com

Don't send advertisements to this domain unless asked!  All disk space
on fw.hac.com hosts belongs to either Hughes Defense Communications or 
the United States government.  Using email to store YOUR advertising 
on them is trespassing!
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: Off topic response to an off topic message--> was:Re: Software Engineering and Dreamers

[Mukesh Prasad]

Spam Hater wrote:
> 
> > Question #1: What does a tree do when it falls and someone IS around
> > to hear it?
> > Answer: It makes a sound.
> 
> Define Sound.

Good point.  Here are a couple (not too good, complete or
elaborate) definitions:

1)  Molecular vibrations of a particular type.  (Typically in air.)
Implication:  Tree does make a sound.

2)  A human experience which all humans (who are
    not deaf) know about.

Implication:  Tree does not make a sound.

Re: Off topic response to an off topic message--> was:Re: Software Engineering and Dreamers

[Craig Franck]

"Phil Berman" <madivaan@gte.net> wrote:

>My response to this question has always been this:
>Question #1: What does a tree do when it falls and someone IS around to
>hear it?
>Answer: It makes a sound.
>
>Question #2: How does the presence or absence of an observer affect the
>falling tree?
>Answer: It doesn't make a bit of difference.

What if it hits the observer?

>Conclusion: The tree makes a sound when it falls.

When a tree falls in the woods and crushes a deaf-mute, is there a sound? 
And in the same vein, what must the initial velocity of a cow being flung
from a catapult be in order to achieve orbit?

-- 
Craig
clfranck@worldnet.att.net
Manchester, NH
"Thinking is highly overrated." -- Zippy the Pin Head

Re: Off topic response to an off topic message--> was:Re: Software Engineering and Dreamers

[Spaceman Spiff]

Craig Franck wrote:
> >
> >Question #2: How does the presence or absence of an observer affect the
> >falling tree?
> >Answer: It doesn't make a bit of difference.
> 
> What if it hits the observer?

ROFL!!
 
> When a tree falls in the woods and crushes a deaf-mute, is there a sound?

*GISH*

> And in the same vein, what must the initial velocity of a cow being flung
> from a catapult be in order to achieve orbit?

6.92 miles per sec. 
Now what is the airspeed of an unladen swallow?

Re: Off topic response to an off topic message--> was:Re: Software Engineering and Dreamers

[Steve Howard]

Spaceman Spiff wrote:
[snip]
> Now what is the airspeed of an unladen swallow?

African or European?
-- 
Steve Howard           | Lockheed Martin Ocean, Radar & Sensor Systems
Software Engineer      | P.O. Box 4840 EP-7 MD 63
(315) 456-7579         | Syracuse, New York 13221

Re: Off topic response to an off topic message--> was:Re: Software Engineering and Dreamers

[Anonymous]

<JSA.97May14201336@alexandria><EACHUS.97May23174831@spectre.mitre.org>
<5m57nu$7si@bcrkh13.bnr.ca><5mcp5o$ei7$3@news.cc.ucf.edu>
<5md1fl$9f4@bcrkh13.bnr.ca><5mmvgj$61k@squire.cen.brad.ac.uk>
<JSA.97Jun2174143@alexandria>
<01bc7042$609289e0$cb61e426@DCorbit.solutionsiq.com>
<5n45ou$cio@squire.cen.brad.ac.uk> <01bc7a5b$9ccdd900$21320f9b@mindlin>
<5o7ahj$oos$1@news12.gte.net> <5o9v30$kg0@mtinsc05.worldnet.att.net>
<33A88408.1ECC@flash.net>

On Thu, 19 Jun 1997 08:27:16 -0400, Steve Howard <howard@syr.lmco.com>
wrote:

> Spaceman Spiff wrote:
> [snip]
> > Now what is the airspeed of an unladen swallow?
> 
> African or European?

It doesn't matter. The answer is 42.

Now I just have to get the units right.

Jeff Carter  PGP:1024/440FBE21
My real e-mail address: ( carter @ innocon . com )
"Now go away, or I shall taunt you a second time."
Monty Python & the Holy Grail

Posted with Spam Hater - see
http://www.compulink.co.uk/~net-services/spam/

Re: Off topic response to an off topic message--> was:Re: Software Engineering and Dreamers

[Spam Hater]

Spaceman Spiff wrote:
> Craig Franck wrote:
> > And in the same vein, what must the initial velocity of a cow being flung
> > from a catapult be in order to achieve orbit?
> 
> 6.92 miles per sec.

But orbit is not good enough.  The cow should jump over the moon.

-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------
    Wes Groleau, Hughes Defense Communications, Fort Wayne, IN USA
Senior Software Engineer - AFATDS                  Tool-smith Wanna-be
                    wwgrol AT pseserv3.fw.hac.com

Don't send advertisements to this domain unless asked!  All disk space
on fw.hac.com hosts belongs to either Hughes Defense Communications or 
the United States government.  Using email to store YOUR advertising 
on them is trespassing!
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: Off topic response to an off topic message--> was:Re: Software Engineering and Dreamers

[Spaceman Spiff]

Spam Hater wrote:
> 
> Spaceman Spiff wrote:
> > Craig Franck wrote:
> > > And in the same vein, what must the initial velocity of a cow being flung
> > > from a catapult be in order to achieve orbit?
> >
> > 6.92 miles per sec.
> 
> But orbit is not good enough.  The cow should jump over the moon.

That, sir, it "Udder Lunacy"!!

HA!!!

-Scotty

Re: Off topic response to an off topic message--> was:Re: Software Engineering and Dreamers

[root]

On Fri, 20 Jun 1997 22:02:22 GMT, Spam Hater
<no.such.user@no.such.com> wrote:

>Spaceman Spiff wrote:
>> Craig Franck wrote:
>> > And in the same vein, what must the initial velocity of a cow being flung
>> > from a catapult be in order to achieve orbit?
>> 
>> 6.92 miles per sec.
>
>But orbit is not good enough.  The cow should jump over the moon.

Well, what is the required velocity (magnitude and direction), if said
launch should take place in central Iowa?
>
>-- 
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>    Wes Groleau, Hughes Defense Communications, Fort Wayne, IN USA
>Senior Software Engineer - AFATDS                  Tool-smith Wanna-be
>                    wwgrol AT pseserv3.fw.hac.com
>
>Don't send advertisements to this domain unless asked!  All disk space
>on fw.hac.com hosts belongs to either Hughes Defense Communications or 
>the United States government.  Using email to store YOUR advertising 
>on them is trespassing!
>----------------------------------------------------------------------

My address is corrupted to reduce spam.  If you can't 
figure out my true address from the corrupted one I 
don't want to receive email from you anyway.

Re: Off topic response to an off topic message--> was:Re: Software Engineering and Dreamers

[Alicia Carla Longstreet]

Spaceman Spiff wrote:
> 
> Craig Franck wrote:
> > >
> > >Question #2: How does the presence or absence of an observer affect the
> > >falling tree?
> > >Answer: It doesn't make a bit of difference.
> >
> > What if it hits the observer?

That doesn't have much of an impact on the tree, only the stupid
observer.  Of course, according to the Hiesenberg Uncertantity
Principal, the observer either alters the location of the tree or alters
the motion of the tree, depending on whether the observer is measuring
the speed of the tree or determining its location.
 
> ROFL!!
> 
> > When a tree falls in the woods and crushes a deaf-mute, is there a sound?

No. Sound is a cranial occurance.  The motion of the tree produces
compressions and refactions in the atmosphere, it requires and ear and a
certain minium congnitive ability to convert the compressions and
rarefactions into sound.  A deaf mute does not have the requisite ear. 
Of course, almost any animal could be present to make the needed
conversion.
 
> *GISH*

Tha is my Aunts favorite bid at bridge.
 
> > And in the same vein, what must the initial velocity of a cow being flung
> > from a catapult be in order to achieve orbit?
 
> 6.92 miles per sec.
> Now what is the airspeed of an unladen swallow?

The cow would not be able to acheive orbit, but you would have an
interesting phenomona, a meteorite rising from the Earth's surface.  Not
to mention, a very well done roast, somewhere.

-- 
********************************************
* Alicia Carla Longstreet     carla@ici.net
********************************************
Knowledge Sir, should be free.
    Harry Mudd from "I, Mudd"
****************************************
Knowledge is free..., 
but you do have to pay me for my time and effort 
in presenting the knowledge in a manner that 
makes it easier for you to learn.

You are free to reinvent the wheel anytime you please.

Re: Off topic response to an off topic message--> was:Re: Software Engineering and Dreamers

[Stephan Wilms]

Craig Franck wrote:
> 
> "Phil Berman" <madivaan@gte.net> wrote:
> 
> >My response to this question has always been this:
> >Question #1: What does a tree do when it falls and someone IS around to
> >hear it?
> >Answer: It makes a sound.
> >
> >Question #2: How does the presence or absence of an observer affect the
> >falling tree?
> >Answer: It doesn't make a bit of difference.
> 
> What if it hits the observer?

It makes a different sound (more squashy).

> >Conclusion: The tree makes a sound when it falls.
> 
> When a tree falls in the woods and crushes a deaf-mute, is there a sound?

Yes, but it doesn't help him.

> And in the same vein, what must the initial velocity of a cow being flung
> from a catapult be in order to achieve orbit?

0 (Zero) ! A cow on a catapult does not move much. This changes when the
catapult is enganged. And yes, it makes a sound, even if the cow is
deaf.

Stephan

Re: Off topic response to an off topic message--> was:Re: Software Engineering and Dreamers

[David Thornley]

In article <5o9v30$kg0@mtinsc05.worldnet.att.net>,
Craig Franck  <clfranck@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>"Phil Berman" <madivaan@gte.net> wrote:
>
>And in the same vein, what must the initial velocity of a cow being flung
>from a catapult be in order to achieve orbit?
>
As somebody pointed out, let's use the velocity of the cow after it's
flung from a catapult, rather than the initial velocity (0, and remains
so until we fire the catapult).

It can't go into Earth orbit without a course correction, since if
it were in an orbit it would return to the last point delta-V
was nonzero, which corresponds to the catapult.  It will likely
have left due to Earth's rotation, but that's still deep in atmosphere.

So, we come up with the following questions:

What's the terminal velocity of an unladen cow?

Will the cow burn up in re-entry?  Or will there be parts only
medium well?

Is this an African or a European cow?

If it burns up on re-entry, wouldn't it also burn up on leaving the
catapult?

What does any of this have to do with comp.lang.c?

David Thornley
(So how about *solar* orbit?)