Re: Any research putting c above ada?

[Roy Grimm <ragrimm@no.spam.please.cca.rockwell.com>]

deafen@imap2.asu.edu wrote:
> Actually, ghod willing, I'll be graduating this december with a degree in
> CIS (Computer Information Systems) through the College of Business at ASU.
> It's not exactly what you're describing as a software engineering track,
> but it covers nearly all of the areas you describe.  Furthermore, for
> geeks like me, they offer several technically-oriented electives (Unix
> Network and Systems Programming, e.g.) and several cross-program
> electives through the College of Engineering.

I would describe CIS and other MIS related programs the anthesis of
software engineering.  From my experience with business majors and
computers, I find they are worse than straght CompSci people.  If there
was ever a department that shouldn't train people how to run computer
systems, it's the business department.  Managers with business degrees
have a hard enough time managing regular businesses as it is.  It has
been my experience that a vast majority of people with business degrees
are not capable doing any real systems work.

I will grant that some individuals (possibly yourself included) have
some technical ability and/or take some electives to learn technical
ability.  However, a majority of business students couldn't do the real
administration tasks required to run a real computer network.

Beyond that, most business students don't know how to program their way
out of a paper bag, much less develop real software in an engineering
department.  I have seen some people pretentious enough to apply for an
engineering position with a business degree.  However, their resume
rarely makes it through the cut to get to resume review, and the
applicants usually don't make it to real interveiws.  Business schools
simply do not teach students how to engineer software.  They teach
students how to approach business from an academic viewpoint, much like
CompSci schools teach students how to approach programming from an
academic and theoretical viewpoints.  Neither approach is appropriate
for a software engineering position.

> Some of the areas in which that I've taken courses include systems
> analysis and design, database design and management, application
> analysis, and the like; these are required courses.

Those classes are fine for systems administrators and business
application programmers.  However, when you need someone who knows how
to develop safety-critical embedded systems software that tracks other
airplanes in the area and tells a pilot when one is getting too close, I
guarantee there won't be too many database administrators working on the
project.

>  Other required
> courses are standard College of Business things like uses of accounting
> information, fundamentals of finance, managerial communication, group
> communication, principles of marketing, operations and logistics
> management, and the like.

I fail to see how any of these courses would make anyone a better
software engineer.

>  The more technical areas are things like COBOL
> (yeah, ick), C *and* C++, object-oriented analysis and design, and ESQL
> (both in C/C++ and COBOL environments).

You're getting warmer, but I bet you only really learned the syntax of
the languages and the theoretical aspects of OO design.  I'd bet you
didn't spend much time learning software develoment techniques.

> IMHO, it's a pretty cool program, with a good balance between
> fundamentals of IT, fundamentals of business, and tech-y stuff.

I'm sorry, but software engineering has a lot more than just a bit of
"tech-y stuff" and IT/business fundamentals.  There's an entire side of
software engineering that is not touched by a business degree.  That's
why you see a requirement for a BS in computer/electrical engineering
(or related experience) for most every engineering position advertised. 
Business students (and even most CompSci students) don't have what it
takes to truly engineer software systems.

> So yes, these programs do exist; seek ye the CIS program in Ye Olde
> Businesse Colleje.

Can they teach me how to design a real-time embedded operating system
that I can certify in a safety-critical environment?  Can they even come
close?  Hardly.

> OBC: My final project in CIS430 was to implement an email system using
> SYSV message queues in K&R style.  No prototypes allowed.  Icky.

A simple Unix email system is hardly a challenge to build, no matter
what style you use.  Was your email system a distribution service for a
particular machine or was it to be a true mail server, complete with
support for multiple domains, mail forwarding and routing, embedded mime
types and so forth?  Did your email system even need to communicate
outside the particular system it was running on by itself or did it use
the built in Unix mail transport system?  I would find it hard to
believe that an undergraduate business class would get into something as
involved as mail server architecture.

-- 
Voicing my own opinion, not speaking as a company representative.

Roy A. Grimm
Rockwell Collins Avionics
Cedar Rapids, Iowa
ragrimm@no.spam.please.cca.rockwell.com
    (remove the no.spam.please. to get my real address)