Re: Any research putting c above ada?

[Roy Grimm <ragrimm@cca.rockwell.com>]

John Apa wrote:
> 
> I missed the original response to my post, but I'm glad that someone
> else is willing to state the truth about the state of "higher education"
> in this country. The original idea of my post was simply to state that
> there was a need for an Applied CS or SW Engineering field of study in
> school. I made some comments about the state of Technical education and
> the following ensued, I probably should have snipped more:

I've snipped quite a bit myself...

> I fully agree with what Mr Grimm has written.

Thanks.  It's good to know that I'm not the only one who feels this way.

> Roy Grimm wrote {The shear unadulterated truth}:
>
>Are you an engineer or a HR type.

I would be an engineer.  I started at Rockwell as a software technician
writing structural tests for the standard libraries in a C compiler. 
After a short time, I was able to show that I can really develop
software so they put me on a development project where I ported an Ada
application from one system to an entirely new target architecture and
compiler.  I took off with it so fast they decided to promote me to
engineer.  Considering that I have a B.A. in comp sci and math from an
institution that isn't accredited by the "right" committee, it's quite
suprising that the H.R. department let the promotion through.  Though,
when several levels of management in several chains of command step up
to say "I don't care how, make him an engineer", it does eventually go
through, despite the bitchings of the pencil pushing bureaucrats. 
(Thanks to everyone who went to bat for me.)

> GPA is not a measure of anything but your ability to get through school.
> I hated school, because it was to slow and lacked any creativity. I
> loved my reasearch and design courses because I had to think to figure
> things out. I tutored many of the "4.0" students I went to class with,
> many would have failed had I not helped them understand how to apply the
> theories we were taught. This doesn't make me smarter than them, nor
> them smarter than me for having a 4.0.

It doesn't show that you are any smarter but it does demonstrate that
you are more able to do the real work than they were.  When it comes to
engineering positions, that's what counts.

> I'm still getting calls on my resume because of the things I know and
> the experience I've gained over the years. If my gpa is more important
> than my knowledge and experience then I sure don't want to work at that
> company. They probably haven't got a clue as to how to do real
> engineering. Knowledge is power. Arbitrary social standards are
> meaningless.

The social standards are not entirely meaningless.  Sometimes, you can
find yourself in a position where the people in power adhere to those
standards.  In that case, you just grin and bear it while you circulate
resumes.  Either that or you quit, become a contractor, and sell your
services to the company when they desparately need someone who can bail
them out while their regular employees are arguing about theoretical
issues.

> One of my friends went on to get a MS, yes I tutored some of those
> classes also. This particular friends graduated 1st in the class with a
> 4.0 MS with honors. The job aquired is as a crew chief on a phone
> company repair team. Most of the people graduated with me are in nowhere
> jobs because they weren't able to apply their CS skills to anything
> real.  A terrible waste of good people. Thank the educational proponents
> of the socially balanced student for that.

I recently ran into someone I went to high school with whom I constantly
debated the relative merits of good grades (among other things).  He
graduated from a good college and even got really good grades.  I ran
into him when he delivered pizza to my house one night...

Personally, I think that the average student has the ability to be
taught not only how to be an engineer but also has the time to broaden
their minds in other disciplines (literature, art, etc.).  The only
thing standing in their way is the personal agendas of the
professors/departments/institutions.  That applies not only to the
engineering side of the school, but the liberal arts side as well.  Far
too many professors and departments have (not so) hidden agendas in
their curriculum.

> YES YES YES. School should be about learning how to think. That is what
> is important. The details of any language or field can be picked up
> fairly quickly if you KNOW how to think and reason. I know many people
> who have no formal training in CS, yet they are very brilliant. One has
> a chemical engineering degree, one of the toughest degrees to get. He
> learned the stuff that was important as he went along his career.

There are just too many people in positions of power within the
institutions who won't admit/don't care that they are churning out a
bunch of useless, theory spewing hackers with no real job skills.  Until
you can change the attitude of the departments, you won't see much
change.
 
> Thank you Roy for backing me up on this stuff.

My pleasure.  Thanks for providing the sounding board.

> I guess the best equalizer is living well. I'll be retired by the time
> I'm 45. Living up in the Rockies and enjoying life. Hmm....

Living well is surely a goal, though I doubt I'll retire when I'm 45. 
My family comes from a long line of hard workers.  My 59 year old father
has more than enough "points" to retire.  However, it would look bad if
he retired before _his_ father did... :)

-- 
Voicing my own opinion, not speaking as a company representative...

Roy A. Grimm
Rockwell Collins Avionics
Cedar Rapids, Iowa
ragrimm@cca.rockwell.com