Looking for comments on ObjectAda and books.

Looking for comments on ObjectAda and books.

[Kenneth W. Sodemann]

Folks;

I am looking for comments on ObjectAda, and also suggestions on books.

For a little background:  I have done professional development in
Ada83 using Rational Apex (embedded avionics systems), and Borland C++
(Windows based satalite communications systems), and have done
"hobbiest" type work using Watcom C++ (OS/2 & Windows), gcc (Linux),
and Turbo Pascal (DOS).

I am looking at ObjectAda as something I can mess around with at home
to bring me up to speed in Ada95.  Also, my ideal system would have a
nice IDE, and good windows support.

So, with this in mind, I am looking for experianced opinions on
ObjectAda.  I am also looking for input on good Ada95 books.

From the information on Anonix's web site, and from talking to their
sales people, it sounds like the way I would like to go.  However, one
item from the RR Software web site kind of bugs me (quoted below):

"ObjectAda: We have tested the demo with the 7.0 version of ObjectAda
Professional Edition. This appears to be the most
recent version available. ObjectAda still has significant problems
with overriding inherited subprograms. Therefore, we haven't
provided a version for ObjectAda. Aonix does not seem interested in
fixing our bug reports."

So, if anyone has any suggestions or comments, I would love to hear
them.

Thanks;

--
Ken Sodemann
stuffle@pcii.net
http://users.mwci.net/~stuffle

When replying, remove the "**" from the start of the e-mail address

Re: Looking for comments on ObjectAda and books.

[Tom Moran]

>item from the RR Software web site kind of bugs me (quoted below):
>"ObjectAda still has significant problems with overriding inherited >subprograms. Therefore, we haven't provided a version for ObjectAda."
  I think that's an old quote, though the problem persists.  Of
three spurious fatal errors ObjectAda generated (nultiple times)
trying to compile Claw in early December, one was fixed by a patch
downloadable from the Aonix BBS before the end of February (when
there was a SigAda meeting hosted by Aonix and I passed around the
remaining two bugs).  My understanding is that those two remain.
They show up as spurious error messages saying

"dispatching operation must be subtype conformant with the inherited
subprogram it overrides"

"Overlap in static initializers:  Initializer offset = 44 is less
than previous one = 48, overlapping initializers not written"

Re: Looking for comments on ObjectAda and books.

[Larry Kilgallen]

In article <334f01eb.95806760@news.mwci.net>, **stuffle@pcii.net (Kenneth W. Sodemann) writes:

> From the information on Anonix's web site, and from talking to their
> sales people, it sounds like the way I would like to go.  However, one
> item from the RR Software web site kind of bugs me (quoted below):
> 
> "ObjectAda: We have tested the demo with the 7.0 version of ObjectAda
> Professional Edition. This appears to be the most
> recent version available. ObjectAda still has significant problems
> with overriding inherited subprograms. Therefore, we haven't
> provided a version for ObjectAda. Aonix does not seem interested in
> fixing our bug reports."

I would agree that Aonix does not do a good job of communicating with
Windows customers who are on normal maintenance (yearly fee, single seat).

They have a new version due soon so presumably there will be bugs fixed,
but I wish they had not spent postage mailing brochures about things I
do not want (all their products which are not Ada compilers) and had
instead sent a one page newsletter about progress toward V7.1.

Every time, and by every method, when I have tried to contact them
about the software, the overall impression I get is that they view
the purpose of the communication to be a way to add to their marketing
database.

Now none of this is meant to denigrate the quality of their compilers,
and Aonix has various knowlegeable and helpful people contributing
to this newsgroup, but their formal interface to customers needs
polishing.

Larry Kilgallen

Re: Looking for comments on ObjectAda and books.

[Dave Wood]

Larry Kilgallen wrote:

> I would agree that Aonix does not do a good job of communicating with
> Windows customers who are on normal maintenance (yearly fee, single seat).

Perhaps not, and your critiques are certainly welcome.  I will 
address this further below.

> They have a new version due soon so presumably there will be bugs fixed,
> but I wish they had not spent postage mailing brochures about things I
> do not want (all their products which are not Ada compilers) 

Mind reading can be diffult.  :)

> and had
> instead sent a one page newsletter about progress toward V7.1.

Again, below.

> Every time, and by every method, when I have tried to contact them
> about the software, the overall impression I get is that they view
> the purpose of the communication to be a way to add to their marketing
> database.

I find this puzzling, Larry, as I know that I have personally 
communicated with you on multiple occasions and I think answered
all questions put to me.  I know that you have also communicated
directly with engineers and support personnel.  None of us have
any direct access to a marketing database, and therefore our only
goal in communicating with you is to try to answer your questions.

On the other hand, if you are talking about communications with
telesales people (which I know you have also done) you might be
more satisfied if you alter your expectations accordingly, as
telesales people, of necessity, have a more limited knowledge
and more restictive parameters within which to operate.  

If you have something *else* in mind, do feel free to contact
me directly and we'll get to the heart of it.

> Now none of this is meant to denigrate the quality of their compilers,
> and Aonix has various knowlegeable and helpful people contributing
> to this newsgroup, but their formal interface to customers needs
> polishing.

This is a difficult issue.  Dedicated customer support is quite
expensive because it involves actual time from real people. As such,
we offer multiple levels of support to try to meet a variety of
different needs and expectations.  I won't bore the newsgroup
with specifics, but anyone interested in more detail on options
is invited to email me directly.

What we intend to offer for all customers, regardless of support
level, is an interactive forum for communications, much as we had
with ActivAda.  Normally, I would be using this forum to communicate
status and to entertain interactive Q&A.

Unfortunately, we've had ongoing technical problems related
to some freeware list server software (sometimes you get what you
pay for), and that forum has been non-functional for a few 
frustrating months now.  We are working hard on a resolution, and
I expect a breakthrough in the near future.

While awaiting this resolution, I had considered making status
announcements about 7.1 here on c.l.a, but this has two drawbacks:
(1) it might be considered rude by non-ObjectAda customers and/ or
competing companies, and (2) a lot of customers don't read this
newsgroup, at least on a regular basis.

I also considered a newsletter, but I decided that the timing 
would not work out for a number of reasons, most particularly
because by the time I could pull together a newsletter for
an audience the size of the ObjectAda user base, 7.1 will already
be shipping anyway.

So, in summary, here's the status.  ObjectAda for Windows 7.1 
is "out of engineering" and is currently undergoing qualification.
It's in excellent shape and a substantial improvement over what
already was (IMHO) a great product.  I expect qualification to
be complete by the end of this month, and with a two-week
production cycle, we should begin shipping subscription upgrades
approximately mid-May.

I am most happy to entertain *product* or *status* inquiries by email.  
I answer all inquiries that I actually receive (which is quite a lot, 
believe me), although it can take a few days or sometimes weeks if I
need to track down answers that I don't already know.

That said, questions that come to me which are best directed to 
customer support or to our problem database will, in fact, be directed 
to those avenues.

So, if you have a problem or technical question, please contact
our support department at 1-800-97-AONIX (in the US; check your
documentation or our web site for international offices), or send
email to adasupport@aonix.com.

If you have a question about product status or plans, feel free
to email me at dpw@aonix.com.  Please note that much of this
information is available in our FAQ file.  At present, you can
obtain this FAQ file from our customer support department, or
email me a request and I will send it as a Word attachment.  
After it is updated for 7.1, we will provide it on the 7.1 CD
and on our web site, but for now the 7.0 version is available
by mail or email attachment only.

If FOR ANY REASON you feel you are not getting the responsiveness
that you need from anyone at Aonix regarding ObjectAda for Windows,
I invite you to email me directly, as this concerns me very much.
I will investigate and escalate as appropriate.

As always, we appreciate your patronage, as do our children and
significant others.

-- Dave Wood
-- Product Manager, ObjectAda for Windows
-- Aonix - "Ada with an Attitude"
-- http://www.aonix.com

Re: Looking for comments on ObjectAda and books.

[Larry Kilgallen]

In article <33509308.3017@aonix.com>, Dave Wood <dpw@aonix.com> writes:
> 
> Larry Kilgallen wrote:

>> Every time, and by every method, when I have tried to contact them
>> about the software, the overall impression I get is that they view
>> the purpose of the communication to be a way to add to their marketing
>> database.
> 
> I find this puzzling, Larry, as I know that I have personally 
> communicated with you on multiple occasions and I think answered
> all questions put to me.  I know that you have also communicated
> directly with engineers and support personnel.

Sorry, I meant to indicate "formal channels" in my comment.  Indeed,
sending email to Dave Wood works very well, but I consider that a
"back door" approach for use only in emergencies.  I do not believe
I have ever gotten a responsive answer from email or written comments
to the general customer service addresses.

> If you have something *else* in mind, do feel free to contact
> me directly and we'll get to the heart of it.

I certainly would if it were critical, but I do not want to deter
from overall product management efforts.  I have made particular
long-term suggestions/requests which you have been dealing with,
and I view those as much more important than smaller bug reports
which are properly sent through formal channels.

> Unfortunately, we've had ongoing technical problems related
> to some freeware list server software (sometimes you get what you
> pay for), and that forum has been non-functional for a few 
> frustrating months now.  We are working hard on a resolution, and
> I expect a breakthrough in the near future.

Ah !  _That_ is a really relevant piece of news about the goals of
the support environment which clears up some mystery.  Although you
sometimes get what you pay for, it is also possible to get less than
what you pay for, as I know folk who have had similar trouble with
highly-priced software for similar purposes.

> While awaiting this resolution, I had considered making status
> announcements about 7.1 here on c.l.a, but this has two drawbacks:
> (1) it might be considered rude by non-ObjectAda customers and/ or
> competing companies, and (2) a lot of customers don't read this
> newsgroup, at least on a regular basis.

I agree that c.l.a is inappropriate for unsolicited status reports,
although we all appreciate your presence here and contribution of
this _solicited_ status report.  V7.1 is more important that a
newsletter, but sometime in the future you may have the time.

Larry Kilgallen

Re: Looking for comments on ObjectAda and books.

[Dave Wood]

rajt@gco.apana.org.au wrote:
> 
> Someone who claimed to be Dave Wood <dpw@aonix.com> wrote:
> 
> >Perhaps not, and your critiques are certainly welcome.
> .
> .
> { large content free post deleted }
> 
> After reading that 99% content -free message, I now understand why

[blah blah blah]


content-free:  adj.  (1) A post which exists solely for the
purpose of declaring another post to be content-free, without
adding anything of value or even specific useful critique;
(2) The life of one who gets a strange thrill from making such
posts, with the intent of inducing flames which create heat but 
not light.

irony:  n.  See (1) above.

pitiful:  adj.  See (2) above.

closure:  n.  My attitude on this subject.


-- Dave Wood
-- Product Manager, ObjectAda for Windows
-- Aonix - "Ada: To Infinity and Beyond!"
-- http://www.aonix.com

Re: Looking for comments on ObjectAda and books.

[Ginny Wood]

rajt@gco.apana.org.au wrote:
> 
> Someone who claimed to be Dave Wood <dpw@aonix.com> wrote:
> 
> >Perhaps not, and your critiques are certainly welcome.
> .
> .
> { large content free post deleted }
> 
> After reading that 99% content -free message, I now understand why

[blah blah blah]


content-free:  adj.  (1) A post which exists solely for the
purpose of declaring another post to be content-free, without
adding anything of value or even specific useful critique;
(2) The life of one who gets a strange thrill from making such
posts, with the intent of inducing flames which create heat but 
not light.

irony:  n.  See (1) above.

pitiful:  adj.  See (2) above.

closure:  n.  My attitude on this subject.


-- Dave Wood
-- Product Manager, ObjectAda for Windows
-- Aonix - "Ada: To Infinity and Beyond!"
-- http://www.aonix.com

Re: Looking for comments on ObjectAda and books.

[Dave Wood]

Kenneth W. Sodemann wrote:
> 
> 
> So, with this in mind, I am looking for experianced opinions on
> ObjectAda.  I am also looking for input on good Ada95 books.
> 
> From the information on Anonix's web site, and from talking to their
> sales people, it sounds like the way I would like to go.  However, one
> item from the RR Software web site kind of bugs me (quoted below):
>
> "ObjectAda: We have tested the demo with the 7.0 version of ObjectAda
> Professional Edition. This appears to be the most
> recent version available. ObjectAda still has significant problems
> with overriding inherited subprograms. Therefore, we haven't
> provided a version for ObjectAda. Aonix does not seem interested in
> fixing our bug reports."

I can't comment personally on the specific issue without investigation,
but the notion that we aren't "interested" is of course silly.  (I'm 
astonished that RR would put something like this on their web site.
It strikes me as somewhat unprofessional.)

However, as with any product that is used by many thousands of people
(a situation that is incomprehensible to most Ada suppliers) it is
utterly impossible to address immediately every issue raised by every 
user.  However, we do log everything reported through formal
channels and we do prioritize them and address as much as we can
on an ongoing basis, even if the issues at hand are reported by
competing companies.  The list of fixes, corrections, enhancements,
and additions between 7.0 and 7.1 is quite extensive, and the product,
quite frankly, speaks for itself.

As a point of comparison, I've had outstanding bug reports with
Borland C++ since 1989!  And don't even get me started on Microsoft.

-- Dave Wood
-- Product Manager, ObjectAda for Windows
-- Aonix - "Ada with an Attitude"
-- http://www.aonix.com