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From: Bertrand Meyer <bertrand@eiffel.com>
Subject: Re: Trust but verify (was Re: Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract
Date: 1997/03/25
Date: 1997-03-25T00:00:00+00:00	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <3338AA0A.7A79CB24@eiffel.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: 5ha171$dck@flood.weeg.uiowa.edu


Robert S. White wrote:
 
> So don't think it is just him that has been put off by people
> saying that "Design By Contract with the Eiffel language"
> would have (alone - without simulation or HWIL) testing)
> prevented the [Ariane] 5 disaster.

In this particular case there is good reason to think that good
use of Design by Contract would in fact have evidenced the bug
early in the development cycle, long before any simulation or
testing. I think anyone that has practiced the method will agree.
To repeat the basic point of our (Jezequel's and mine) paper:
do not reuse without a contract.

But of course this is not a reason to say there should not be
simulation, testing, inspections, independent reviews etc. etc.
I don't recall anyone even coming close to suggesting this in the
present thread. And our paper certainly does not say anything of
the sort.

	(By the way I don't primarily think of Eiffel as a "language",
	 more as a method. But this is not the main point of this
	 particular discussion.)
 
> And it is normal industry practice to have different (from the
> designers/coders) personnel do the qualification tests (HWIL) test
> procedures and conduct the tests using the "Black Box" requirements.

Agreed. Not only normal but excellent practice.

I like the modified thread title of your message:
"Trust but verify" although I would make it stronger:
"Make it trustable, then DON'T trust it" (and so verify it).
It would be as absurd to use Design by Contract or other
a priori relability techniques as an excuse not to do a posteriori V & V
(testing, simulation etc.),
as it would be to develop in a sloppy way with the expectation that
testing will uncover any problems.

If a priori reliability techniques - Design by Contract, static typing,
genericity, automatic memory management etc. - were a substitute for
testing, why would Eiffel environments bother to include debugging
tools? Engineering reliability can only result from the combination of
several techniques approaching the product from different angles:
some a priori (building the product right in the first place),
some a posteriori (not believing that it is right, and test it
extensively). That this is not an either-or situation
is so obvious as to be almost a platitude (although one does
encounter people, including software engineering authors,
who believe in only the a priori part or only the
a posteriori part).

But the need for a posteriori verification 
is too often an excuse for not applying the proven a priori
reliability techniques, such as Design by Contract. This is not
only silly but a recipe for disaster of Ariane-5 proportions.

It's been amazing in this discussion how some postings have taken
to task our paper for ideas that are not there.
The points that it makes are pretty simple, and there for everyone
to examine (http://www.eiffel.com, link to "Ariane 5 paper");
after reading most of the discussion, and re-reading the paper,
I think that its arguments and conclusion are perfectly in line with
many useful comments made by people who thought they disagreed with it.
Please check what it really has to say.

-- 
Bertrand Meyer, President, ISE Inc., Santa Barbara (California)
805-685-1006, fax 805-685-6869, <Bertrand.Meyer@eiffel.com> -
ftp://ftp.eiffel.com
Visit our Web page: http://www.eiffel.com
	(including instructions to download Eiffel 4 for Windows)




  reply	other threads:[~1997-03-25  0:00 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 247+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
1997-03-15  0:00 Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract Bertrand Meyer
     [not found] ` <tz8ohcjv7cc.fsf@aimnet.com>
1997-03-16  0:00   ` Robert Dewar
1997-03-17  0:00     ` Please do not start a language war (was " Jean-Marc Jezequel
1997-03-18  0:00       ` Ken Garlington
     [not found]         ` <199703190839.JAA02652@stormbringer.irisa.fr>
1997-03-19  0:00           ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-20  0:00             ` Roger T.
1997-03-21  0:00               ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-21  0:00               ` Jean-Marc Jezequel
1997-03-24  0:00                 ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-20  0:00             ` Robert S. White
1997-03-20  0:00               ` Martin Tom Brown
1997-03-21  0:00                 ` Wolfgang Gellerich
1997-03-21  0:00                 ` Robert S. White
1997-03-20  0:00               ` John L. Ahrens
1997-03-19  0:00         ` Jean-Marc Jezequel
1997-03-19  0:00           ` Richard Kaiser
1997-03-21  0:00           ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-21  0:00             ` Jean-Marc Jezequel
1997-03-25  0:00               ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-26  0:00                 ` Trust but verify " Robert S. White
1997-03-25  0:00                   ` Bertrand Meyer [this message]
1997-03-26  0:00                     ` Robb Nebbe
1997-03-27  0:00                     ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-28  0:00                       ` Karel Th�nissen
1997-03-28  0:00                         ` Ken Garlington
1997-04-07  0:00                           ` Jean-Marc Jezequel
1997-03-28  0:00                       ` Jeffrey W. Stulin
1997-03-31  0:00                         ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-29  0:00                     ` the one and only real true kibo
     [not found]       ` <tz8913l930b.fsf_-_@aimnet.com>
1997-03-18  0:00         ` Ariane-5: can you clarify? (Re: Please do not start a language war) Gavin Collings
1997-03-18  0:00         ` Ariane-5: can you clarify? (Re: Please do not start a language war Roedy Green
1997-03-18  0:00       ` Please do not start a language war (was Re: Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract Richard Irvine
1997-03-17  0:00   ` Robert I. Eachus
1997-03-17  0:00     ` Martin Tom Brown
1997-03-17  0:00   ` Please do not start a language war (was " Jon S Anthony
1997-03-18  0:00     ` Kent Tong
1997-03-20  0:00       ` Ranan Fraer
1997-03-17  0:00   ` Bertrand Meyer
1997-03-18  0:00     ` John McCabe
1997-03-18  0:00       ` Ray McVay
1997-03-27  0:00         ` Robert Dewar
1997-03-29  0:00           ` the one and only real true kibo
1997-03-30  0:00             ` Nick Roberts
1997-04-06  0:00             ` Doctorb
1997-04-08  0:00         ` Ron Crocker
1997-04-11  0:00           ` Richard Riehle
1997-03-17  0:00   ` Alexander Anderson
1997-03-17  0:00   ` Nick Leaton
1997-03-17  0:00     ` Richard Kaiser
     [not found]     ` <tz8g1xtzx9y.fsf@aimnet.com>
1997-03-18  0:00       ` Anders Pytte
1997-03-18  0:00         ` Jean-Marc Jezequel
1997-03-18  0:00           ` Anders Pytte
1997-03-19  0:00             ` Programming language fanaticism! Louis Bastarache
1997-03-20  0:00               ` Anders Pytte
1997-03-20  0:00             ` Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract Matt Kennel (Remove 'nospam' to reply)
1997-03-24  0:00             ` Joachim Durchholz
1997-03-24  0:00               ` Anders Pytte
1997-03-26  0:00                 ` Matt Kennel (Remove 'nospam' to reply)
1997-03-29  0:00                   ` Anders Pytte
1997-03-29  0:00                     ` Steve Furlong
1997-03-26  0:00                 ` Robert Dewar
1997-03-27  0:00                   ` the one and only real true kibo
1997-03-29  0:00                   ` the one and only real true kibo
1997-03-29  0:00                     ` Nick S Bensema
1997-03-30  0:00                       ` the one and only real true kibo
1997-03-18  0:00           ` Anders Pytte
1997-03-21  0:00           ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-21  0:00             ` Bertrand Meyer
1997-03-21  0:00               ` William Clodius
1997-03-21  0:00                 ` Bertrand Meyer
1997-03-23  0:00                   ` the one and only real true kibo
1997-03-23  0:00                   ` William Clodius
1997-03-22  0:00               ` Fergus Henderson
1997-03-22  0:00                 ` Bertrand Meyer
1997-03-23  0:00                   ` the one and only real true kibo
1997-03-23  0:00                     ` Anders Pytte
1997-03-24  0:00                   ` FUD (Re: Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract) Alexander Anderson
1997-03-24  0:00                   ` Alexander Anderson
1997-03-23  0:00               ` Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract Anders Pytte
     [not found]                 ` <3335BC24.13728473@eiffel.com>
1997-03-23  0:00                   ` Bertrand Meyer
1997-03-24  0:00                     ` Robert Dewar
1997-03-31  0:00                       ` Ken Garlington
1997-04-01  0:00                         ` Bertrand Meyer
1997-03-25  0:00                     ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-24  0:00                 ` the one and only real true kibo
1997-03-24  0:00                 ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-24  0:00               ` John Hogg
1997-03-24  0:00               ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-26  0:00                 ` Robert Dewar
1997-03-26  0:00                   ` Ken Garlington
     [not found]                     ` <E7ox17.MKx@syd.csa.com.au>
1997-03-28  0:00                       ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-18  0:00         ` Laurent Moussault
1997-03-18  0:00     ` Richard Kaiser
1997-03-18  0:00       ` Jean-Marc Jezequel
1997-03-19  0:00         ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-18  0:00       ` Nick Leaton
1997-03-19  0:00         ` Richard Kaiser
1997-03-19  0:00           ` Fergus Henderson
1997-03-19  0:00           ` Jean-Marc Jezequel
1997-03-19  0:00             ` Richard Kaiser
1997-03-18  0:00     ` Richard Kaiser
1997-03-18  0:00       ` Nick Leaton
1997-03-18  0:00         ` "Paul E. Bennett"
1997-03-19  0:00           ` Nick Leaton
1997-03-24  0:00           ` Joachim Durchholz
1997-03-25  0:00             ` Robert Dewar
1997-03-31  0:00               ` Jan Galkowski
1997-03-31  0:00               ` Joachim Durchholz
1997-04-02  0:00                 ` Robert Dewar
1997-04-03  0:00                   ` Martin Tom Brown
1997-04-04  0:00                   ` Jonathan Egre'
1997-04-06  0:00                     ` Robert Dewar
1997-04-06  0:00                       ` Nick Roberts
1997-04-04  0:00                   ` Derek Clarke
1997-03-31  0:00             ` Alexander Anderson
1997-04-01  0:00             ` Alexander Anderson
1997-04-02  0:00             ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-20  0:00         ` John the Hamster
1997-03-17  0:00   ` Paul Johnson
1997-03-17  0:00     ` Enrico Facchin - Sartori E.T.
1997-03-19  0:00       ` Anders Pytte
1997-03-18  0:00     ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-17  0:00   ` John McCabe
     [not found]     ` <tz8n2s1hrdc.fsf@aimnet.com>
1997-03-20  0:00       ` John McCabe
1997-03-20  0:00         ` Jean-Marc Jezequel
1997-03-20  0:00           ` John McCabe
1997-03-21  0:00             ` Niall Cooling
1997-03-21  0:00               ` Gavin Collings
1997-03-27  0:00                 ` Joachim Durchholz
1997-04-03  0:00                   ` Gavin Collings
1997-04-03  0:00                     ` Ken Garlington
1997-04-04  0:00                       ` Derek Clarke
1997-04-04  0:00                     ` Derek Clarke
1997-04-06  0:00                       ` Robert Dewar
1997-04-07  0:00                         ` Ken Garlington
1997-04-09  0:00                           ` Gavin Collings
1997-04-03  0:00                   ` Robert I. Eachus
1997-04-04  0:00                     ` Derek Clarke
1997-04-04  0:00                     ` Chris Beer
1997-04-04  0:00                   ` Ken Garlington
1997-04-04  0:00                     ` Robert Dewar
1997-04-03  0:00                 ` Robin Rosenberg
1997-03-24  0:00             ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-26  0:00           ` Thomas Beale
1997-03-26  0:00             ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-20  0:00       ` John McCabe
1997-03-21  0:00       ` "Paul E. Bennett"
1997-03-22  0:00     ` Nigel Tzeng
1997-03-23  0:00       ` John McCabe
1997-03-18  0:00   ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-19  0:00     ` Eric M. Boyd
1997-03-19  0:00       ` Jeffrey W. Stulin
     [not found]       ` <3345cd60.2092398@news.sydney.apana.org.au>
1997-04-03  0:00         ` Ariane-5 crash , Eiffel and Ada Jeffrey W. Stulin
1997-04-03  0:00         ` Nick Leaton
1997-04-08  0:00         ` AdaWorks
1997-03-18  0:00   ` Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract Jon S Anthony
1997-03-18  0:00   ` Tarjei Jensen
1997-03-18  0:00   ` Robert I. Eachus
1997-03-18  0:00   ` Ulrich Windl
1997-03-18  0:00   ` Jon S Anthony
1997-03-18  0:00   ` Jon S Anthony
1997-03-19  0:00     ` Ron Forrester
1997-03-21  0:00       ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-22  0:00         ` Ron Forrester
1997-03-18  0:00   ` Jon S Anthony
1997-03-19  0:00   ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-20  0:00     ` Richard Kaiser
1997-03-24  0:00       ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-20  0:00     ` Martin Tom Brown
1997-03-21  0:00       ` Frank Manning
1997-03-21  0:00         ` Martin Tom Brown
1997-03-23  0:00           ` Frank Manning
1997-03-25  0:00             ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-19  0:00   ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-19  0:00   ` Karel Th�nissen
1997-03-19  0:00   ` Jon S Anthony
1997-03-19  0:00   ` Nick Leaton
1997-03-19  0:00   ` Jon S Anthony
1997-03-20  0:00     ` Jean-Marc Jezequel
1997-03-24  0:00       ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-20  0:00     ` Paul Johnson
1997-03-24  0:00       ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-24  0:00         ` Design by Contract in C++ (was Re: Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract) Anders Pytte
1997-03-19  0:00   ` Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract Karel Th�nissen
1997-03-19  0:00   ` Ariane-5: can you clarify? (Re: Please do not start a language war) Karel Th�nissen
1997-03-20  0:00   ` Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract Robert I. Eachus
1997-03-20  0:00   ` Ariane-5: can you clarify? (Re: Please do not start a language war) Nick Leaton
1997-03-20  0:00   ` Nick Leaton
1997-03-20  0:00   ` Karel Th�nissen
1997-03-20  0:00   ` Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract Robert I. Eachus
1997-03-21  0:00   ` Please do not start a language war (was " Jon S Anthony
1997-03-21  0:00   ` Alexander Anderson
1997-03-23  0:00     ` "Paul E. Bennett"
     [not found]   ` <tz8sp1qiywm.fsf@aimnet.com>
1997-03-21  0:00     ` ae59
1997-03-21  0:00   ` Ulrich Windl
1997-03-22  0:00   ` Jon S Anthony
1997-03-28  0:00     ` Matt Kennel (Remove 'nospam' to reply)
1997-03-22  0:00   ` Ariane-5: can you clarify? (Re: Please do not start a language war) Stuart Yeates
1997-03-22  0:00   ` Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract Bertrand Meyer
1997-03-23  0:00     ` Dale Stanbrough
     [not found]       ` <3335E18E.33590565@eiffel.com>
1997-03-23  0:00         ` FUD (Re: Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract) Bertrand Meyer
1997-03-24  0:00           ` William Grosso
1997-03-24  0:00             ` Brad Appleton
1997-03-24  0:00             ` Bertrand Meyer
1997-03-24  0:00             ` William Clodius
1997-03-24  0:00     ` Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract Robert Dewar
1997-03-24  0:00       ` Manners (was Re: Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract) Bertrand Meyer
1997-03-25  0:00         ` the one and only real true kibo
1997-03-22  0:00   ` Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract Bertrand Meyer
1997-03-22  0:00     ` Anders Pytte
1997-03-23  0:00       ` Steve Furlong
1997-03-24  0:00         ` Anders Pytte
1997-03-24  0:00           ` Simulating Eiffel-style assertions (was: Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract) Wolfgang Reddig
1997-03-24  0:00             ` Anders Pytte
1997-03-25  0:00               ` Wolfgang Reddig
1997-03-25  0:00                 ` Anders Pytte
1997-03-31  0:00                 ` Joachim Durchholz
1997-03-26  0:00             ` Alan Brain
1997-03-26  0:00               ` Wolfgang Reddig
1997-03-29  0:00                 ` How old time languages survive EJon
1997-03-24  0:00   ` Ariane-5: can you clarify? (Re: Please do not start a language war) William Clodius
1997-03-24  0:00   ` Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract Robb Nebbe
1997-03-24  0:00   ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-24  0:00   ` Ariane-5: can you clarify? (Re: Please do not start a language war) Ken Garlington
1997-03-24  0:00   ` Nick Leaton
1997-03-24  0:00   ` Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract Ken Garlington
1997-03-27  0:00     ` Joachim Durchholz
1997-03-31  0:00       ` Ken Garlington
1997-04-06  0:00         ` Joachim Durchholz
1997-03-24  0:00   ` Alexander Anderson
1997-03-24  0:00   ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-24  0:00   ` Jon S Anthony
1997-03-24  0:00   ` Ariane-5: can you clarify? (Re: Please do not start a language war) Ken Garlington
1997-03-25  0:00   ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-25  0:00   ` David Starr
1997-03-25  0:00   ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-25  0:00   ` Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract Robert I. Eachus
1997-03-26  0:00   ` Jon S Anthony
1997-03-26  0:00   ` Alexander Anderson
1997-03-26  0:00   ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-27  0:00   ` Trust but verify (was " Robert I. Eachus
1997-03-28  0:00   ` Jon S Anthony
1997-03-28  0:00   ` Trust but verify (was " Robert I. Eachus
1997-03-31  0:00   ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-18  0:00 ` Ariane-5: can you clarify? (Re: Please do not start a language war) Jon S Anthony
1997-03-19  0:00 ` Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract Chris Brand
1997-03-23  0:00 ` the one and only real true kibo
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