From: Ken Garlington <GarlingtonKE@lmtas.lmco.com>
Subject: Re: Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract
Date: 1997/03/24
Date: 1997-03-24T00:00:00+00:00 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <3336D280.5EA3@lmtas.lmco.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: tz8ohcjv7cc.fsf@aimnet.com
Jon S Anthony wrote:
>
> In article <33330FE5.3F54BC7E@eiffel.com> Bertrand Meyer <bertrand@eiffel.com> writes:
>
> > > From this we learn that Java and Ada 95 are not properly designed for
> > > Design by Contract.
> >
> > Which is the simple truth. The designers of these languages have
> > explicitly rejected the inclusion of assertions. Why? They are the
> > ones to ask. I am sure they must have their reasons (however
> > unlikely it is I would find these to be good reasons).
>
> It is simply amazing to see you sit there (or type there) and say in
> one breath "Which is the simple truth" and then proceed to make an
> absolutely false statement in the next. In fact, it is extremely
> disappointing and makes you look ridiculous.
That's not fail. Mr. Meyer does, in the same post, define what he means
by assertions, which is a superset of Ada's. Certainly, it contradicts
any notion that the Design by Contract method is appropriate in any
language - in fact, Mr. Meyer has explicitly stated that Eiffel is the
only widespread language that supports Design by Contract.
My problem with the paper is, again, two-fold:
1. The claim that Eiffel assertions would have prevented the Ariane V is
clearly unsupported by the final report.
2. Claims that Design by Contract is not language-specific (i.e. Eiffel)
are also clearly false, and attempts to sell it as such are silly.
>
> Ada _has_ assertions. Their form is not of the same syntactical look
> as Eiffel's. So what? They take the form of constraints, in
> particular (wrt to the case at hand) subtype constraints. They are
> _not_ as flexible or full "featured" as Eiffel's but they are
> certainly there and in the Ariane case, they are every bit as capable
> as Eiffel's. There is no difference in this sort of case. You are
> just plain a) wrong or b) - well it doesn't take a genius to fill in
> the obvious answer to this option.
>
> > > It's bad enough that you post statements that are explicitly
> > > contradicted by the Ariane V final report (e.g. that the IRS could not be
> > > tested in a black-box environment). When you post statements that are
> > > contradicted by your *own* paper...
> >
> > No evidence has been furnished of either of the purported
> > contradictions.
>
> Do you have any idea how ridiculous this sort of statement makes you
> look??? You are not doing Eiffel any favors here...
>
> /Jon
>
> --
> Jon Anthony
> Organon Motives, Inc.
> Belmont, MA 02178
> 617.484.3383
> jsa@organon.com
--
LMTAS - The Fighter Enterprise - "Our Brand Means Quality"
For job listings, other info: http://www.lmtas.com or
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next prev parent reply other threads:[~1997-03-24 0:00 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 254+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
1997-03-15 0:00 Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract Bertrand Meyer
1997-03-18 0:00 ` Ariane-5: can you clarify? (Re: Please do not start a language war) Jon S Anthony
1997-03-19 0:00 ` Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract Chris Brand
1997-03-23 0:00 ` the one and only real true kibo
[not found] ` <tz8ohcjv7cc.fsf@aimnet.com>
1997-03-16 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1997-03-17 0:00 ` Please do not start a language war (was " Jean-Marc Jezequel
1997-03-18 0:00 ` Richard Irvine
1997-03-18 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
[not found] ` <199703190839.JAA02652@stormbringer.irisa.fr>
1997-03-19 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-20 0:00 ` Robert S. White
1997-03-20 0:00 ` John L. Ahrens
1997-03-20 0:00 ` Martin Tom Brown
1997-03-21 0:00 ` Robert S. White
1997-03-21 0:00 ` Wolfgang Gellerich
1997-03-20 0:00 ` Roger T.
1997-03-21 0:00 ` Jean-Marc Jezequel
1997-03-24 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-21 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-19 0:00 ` Jean-Marc Jezequel
1997-03-19 0:00 ` Richard Kaiser
1997-03-21 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-21 0:00 ` Jean-Marc Jezequel
1997-03-25 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-26 0:00 ` Trust but verify " Robert S. White
1997-03-25 0:00 ` Bertrand Meyer
1997-03-26 0:00 ` Robb Nebbe
1997-03-27 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-28 0:00 ` Jeffrey W. Stulin
1997-03-31 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-28 0:00 ` Karel Th�nissen
1997-03-28 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
1997-04-07 0:00 ` Jean-Marc Jezequel
1997-03-29 0:00 ` the one and only real true kibo
[not found] ` <tz8913l930b.fsf_-_@aimnet.com>
1997-03-18 0:00 ` Ariane-5: can you clarify? (Re: Please do not start a language war) Gavin Collings
1997-03-18 0:00 ` Ariane-5: can you clarify? (Re: Please do not start a language war Roedy Green
1997-03-17 0:00 ` Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract Paul Johnson
1997-03-17 0:00 ` Enrico Facchin - Sartori E.T.
1997-03-19 0:00 ` Anders Pytte
1997-03-18 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-17 0:00 ` John McCabe
[not found] ` <tz8n2s1hrdc.fsf@aimnet.com>
1997-03-20 0:00 ` John McCabe
1997-03-20 0:00 ` Jean-Marc Jezequel
1997-03-20 0:00 ` John McCabe
1997-03-21 0:00 ` Niall Cooling
1997-03-21 0:00 ` Gavin Collings
1997-03-27 0:00 ` Joachim Durchholz
1997-04-03 0:00 ` Robert I. Eachus
1997-04-04 0:00 ` Derek Clarke
1997-04-04 0:00 ` Chris Beer
1997-04-03 0:00 ` Gavin Collings
1997-04-03 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
1997-04-04 0:00 ` Derek Clarke
1997-04-04 0:00 ` Derek Clarke
1997-04-06 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1997-04-07 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
1997-04-09 0:00 ` Gavin Collings
1997-04-04 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
1997-04-04 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1997-04-03 0:00 ` Robin Rosenberg
1997-03-24 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-26 0:00 ` Thomas Beale
1997-03-26 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-20 0:00 ` John McCabe
1997-03-21 0:00 ` "Paul E. Bennett"
1997-03-22 0:00 ` Nigel Tzeng
1997-03-23 0:00 ` John McCabe
1997-03-17 0:00 ` Robert I. Eachus
1997-03-17 0:00 ` Martin Tom Brown
1997-03-17 0:00 ` Please do not start a language war (was " Jon S Anthony
1997-03-18 0:00 ` Kent Tong
1997-03-20 0:00 ` Ranan Fraer
1997-03-17 0:00 ` Bertrand Meyer
1997-03-18 0:00 ` John McCabe
1997-03-18 0:00 ` Ray McVay
1997-03-27 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1997-03-29 0:00 ` the one and only real true kibo
1997-03-30 0:00 ` Nick Roberts
1997-04-06 0:00 ` Doctorb
1997-04-08 0:00 ` Ron Crocker
1997-04-11 0:00 ` Richard Riehle
1997-03-17 0:00 ` Alexander Anderson
1997-03-17 0:00 ` Nick Leaton
1997-03-17 0:00 ` Richard Kaiser
[not found] ` <tz8g1xtzx9y.fsf@aimnet.com>
1997-03-18 0:00 ` Anders Pytte
1997-03-18 0:00 ` Jean-Marc Jezequel
1997-03-18 0:00 ` Anders Pytte
1997-03-19 0:00 ` Programming language fanaticism! Louis Bastarache
1997-03-20 0:00 ` Anders Pytte
1997-03-20 0:00 ` Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract Matt Kennel (Remove 'nospam' to reply)
1997-03-24 0:00 ` Joachim Durchholz
1997-03-24 0:00 ` Anders Pytte
1997-03-26 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1997-03-27 0:00 ` the one and only real true kibo
1997-03-29 0:00 ` the one and only real true kibo
1997-03-29 0:00 ` Nick S Bensema
1997-03-30 0:00 ` the one and only real true kibo
1997-03-26 0:00 ` Matt Kennel (Remove 'nospam' to reply)
1997-03-29 0:00 ` Anders Pytte
1997-03-29 0:00 ` Steve Furlong
1997-03-18 0:00 ` Anders Pytte
1997-03-21 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-21 0:00 ` Bertrand Meyer
1997-03-21 0:00 ` William Clodius
1997-03-21 0:00 ` Bertrand Meyer
1997-03-23 0:00 ` William Clodius
1997-03-23 0:00 ` the one and only real true kibo
1997-03-22 0:00 ` Fergus Henderson
1997-03-22 0:00 ` Bertrand Meyer
1997-03-23 0:00 ` the one and only real true kibo
1997-03-23 0:00 ` Anders Pytte
1997-03-24 0:00 ` FUD (Re: Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract) Alexander Anderson
1997-03-24 0:00 ` Alexander Anderson
1997-03-23 0:00 ` Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract Anders Pytte
[not found] ` <3335BC24.13728473@eiffel.com>
1997-03-23 0:00 ` Bertrand Meyer
1997-03-24 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1997-03-31 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
1997-04-01 0:00 ` Bertrand Meyer
1997-03-25 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-24 0:00 ` the one and only real true kibo
1997-03-24 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-24 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-26 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1997-03-26 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
[not found] ` <E7ox17.MKx@syd.csa.com.au>
1997-03-28 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-24 0:00 ` John Hogg
1997-03-18 0:00 ` Laurent Moussault
1997-03-18 0:00 ` Richard Kaiser
1997-03-18 0:00 ` Nick Leaton
1997-03-19 0:00 ` Richard Kaiser
1997-03-19 0:00 ` Fergus Henderson
1997-03-19 0:00 ` Jean-Marc Jezequel
1997-03-19 0:00 ` Richard Kaiser
1997-03-18 0:00 ` Jean-Marc Jezequel
1997-03-19 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-18 0:00 ` Richard Kaiser
1997-03-18 0:00 ` Nick Leaton
1997-03-18 0:00 ` "Paul E. Bennett"
1997-03-19 0:00 ` Nick Leaton
1997-03-24 0:00 ` Joachim Durchholz
1997-03-25 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1997-03-31 0:00 ` Joachim Durchholz
1997-04-02 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1997-04-03 0:00 ` Martin Tom Brown
1997-04-04 0:00 ` Derek Clarke
1997-04-04 0:00 ` Jonathan Egre'
1997-04-06 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1997-04-06 0:00 ` Nick Roberts
1997-03-31 0:00 ` Jan Galkowski
1997-03-31 0:00 ` Alexander Anderson
1997-04-01 0:00 ` Alexander Anderson
1997-04-02 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-20 0:00 ` John the Hamster
1997-03-18 0:00 ` Robert I. Eachus
1997-03-18 0:00 ` Ulrich Windl
1997-03-18 0:00 ` Jon S Anthony
1997-03-18 0:00 ` Jon S Anthony
1997-03-19 0:00 ` Ron Forrester
1997-03-21 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-22 0:00 ` Ron Forrester
1997-03-18 0:00 ` Jon S Anthony
1997-03-18 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-19 0:00 ` Eric M. Boyd
1997-03-19 0:00 ` Jeffrey W. Stulin
[not found] ` <3345cd60.2092398@news.sydney.apana.org.au>
1997-04-03 0:00 ` Ariane-5 crash , Eiffel and Ada Nick Leaton
1997-04-03 0:00 ` Jeffrey W. Stulin
1997-04-08 0:00 ` AdaWorks
1997-03-18 0:00 ` Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract Jon S Anthony
1997-03-18 0:00 ` Tarjei Jensen
1997-03-19 0:00 ` Nick Leaton
1997-03-19 0:00 ` Jon S Anthony
1997-03-20 0:00 ` Jean-Marc Jezequel
1997-03-24 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-20 0:00 ` Paul Johnson
1997-03-24 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-24 0:00 ` Design by Contract in C++ (was Re: Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract) Anders Pytte
1997-03-19 0:00 ` Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract Karel Th�nissen
1997-03-19 0:00 ` Ariane-5: can you clarify? (Re: Please do not start a language war) Karel Th�nissen
1997-03-19 0:00 ` Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract Ken Garlington
1997-03-19 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-20 0:00 ` Richard Kaiser
1997-03-24 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-20 0:00 ` Martin Tom Brown
1997-03-21 0:00 ` Frank Manning
1997-03-21 0:00 ` Martin Tom Brown
1997-03-23 0:00 ` Frank Manning
1997-03-25 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-19 0:00 ` Karel Th�nissen
1997-03-19 0:00 ` Jon S Anthony
1997-03-20 0:00 ` Robert I. Eachus
1997-03-20 0:00 ` Robert I. Eachus
1997-03-20 0:00 ` Ariane-5: can you clarify? (Re: Please do not start a language war) Nick Leaton
1997-03-20 0:00 ` Nick Leaton
1997-03-20 0:00 ` Karel Th�nissen
1997-03-21 0:00 ` Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract Alexander Anderson
1997-03-23 0:00 ` "Paul E. Bennett"
[not found] ` <tz8sp1qiywm.fsf@aimnet.com>
1997-03-21 0:00 ` ae59
1997-03-21 0:00 ` Ulrich Windl
1997-03-21 0:00 ` Please do not start a language war (was " Jon S Anthony
1997-03-22 0:00 ` Bertrand Meyer
1997-03-23 0:00 ` Dale Stanbrough
[not found] ` <3335E18E.33590565@eiffel.com>
1997-03-23 0:00 ` FUD (Re: Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract) Bertrand Meyer
1997-03-24 0:00 ` William Grosso
1997-03-24 0:00 ` Bertrand Meyer
1997-03-24 0:00 ` William Clodius
1997-03-24 0:00 ` Brad Appleton
1997-03-24 0:00 ` Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract Robert Dewar
1997-03-24 0:00 ` Manners (was Re: Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract) Bertrand Meyer
1997-03-25 0:00 ` the one and only real true kibo
1997-03-22 0:00 ` Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract Bertrand Meyer
1997-03-22 0:00 ` Anders Pytte
1997-03-23 0:00 ` Steve Furlong
1997-03-24 0:00 ` Anders Pytte
1997-03-24 0:00 ` Simulating Eiffel-style assertions (was: Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract) Wolfgang Reddig
1997-03-24 0:00 ` Anders Pytte
1997-03-25 0:00 ` Wolfgang Reddig
1997-03-25 0:00 ` Anders Pytte
1997-03-31 0:00 ` Joachim Durchholz
1997-03-26 0:00 ` Alan Brain
1997-03-26 0:00 ` Wolfgang Reddig
1997-03-29 0:00 ` How old time languages survive EJon
1997-03-22 0:00 ` Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract Jon S Anthony
1997-03-28 0:00 ` Matt Kennel (Remove 'nospam' to reply)
1997-03-22 0:00 ` Ariane-5: can you clarify? (Re: Please do not start a language war) Stuart Yeates
1997-03-24 0:00 ` Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract Alexander Anderson
1997-03-24 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-24 0:00 ` Ariane-5: can you clarify? (Re: Please do not start a language war) Ken Garlington
1997-03-24 0:00 ` Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract Jon S Anthony
1997-03-24 0:00 ` Ariane-5: can you clarify? (Re: Please do not start a language war) William Clodius
1997-03-24 0:00 ` Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract Robb Nebbe
1997-03-24 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-24 0:00 ` Ariane-5: can you clarify? (Re: Please do not start a language war) Ken Garlington
1997-03-24 0:00 ` Nick Leaton
1997-03-24 0:00 ` Ken Garlington [this message]
1997-03-27 0:00 ` Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract Joachim Durchholz
1997-03-31 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
1997-04-06 0:00 ` Joachim Durchholz
1997-03-25 0:00 ` Robert I. Eachus
1997-03-25 0:00 ` Ariane-5: can you clarify? (Re: Please do not start a language war) Ken Garlington
1997-03-25 0:00 ` David Starr
1997-03-25 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-26 0:00 ` Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract Ken Garlington
1997-03-26 0:00 ` Jon S Anthony
1997-03-26 0:00 ` Alexander Anderson
1997-03-27 0:00 ` Trust but verify (was " Robert I. Eachus
1997-03-28 0:00 ` Robert I. Eachus
1997-03-28 0:00 ` Jon S Anthony
1997-03-31 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
-- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
1997-03-17 0:00 Marin David Condic, 561.796.8997, M/S 731-93
1997-03-20 0:00 Marin David Condic, 561.796.8997, M/S 731-93
1997-03-25 0:00 ` Nick Roberts
1997-03-24 0:00 Marin David Condic, 561.796.8997, M/S 731-93
1997-03-27 0:00 Marin David Condic, 561.796.8997, M/S 731-93
1997-04-03 0:00 Adrian B.Y. Hoe
1997-04-05 0:00 ` Nick Roberts
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