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From: Tansel Ersavas <tansel@deep.net>
Subject: Re: What is wrong with OO ?
Date: 1996/12/08
Date: 1996-12-08T00:00:00+00:00	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <32AA978F.7D64@deep.net> (raw)
In-Reply-To: 1996Dec7.151850.877@prim.demon.co.uk


Dave Griffiths wrote:

> The last OO project I worked on was a spectacular disaster. A "generic"
> reservations system for one of the biggest entertainment companies in the
> world. It was cancelled a couple of months ago after millions down the
> drain. You won't read about it anywhere because these things aren't discussed
> publically. That in itself is part of the OO "problem" - you only hear about
> the successes. This particular project failed through lack of a coherent
> technical vision. There was nobody "in charge", just a bunch of developers
> making it up as they went along. They were pretty talented, but that RAD
> approach simply doesn't scale up for large projects.

I think that there are a few points here that should be discussed. 

1. "The cancelled projects with money down the drain" is not a part of
the OO problem, but a general IS one. I know two 100 million projects
cancelled after 5 years of great hopes, money and sweat, and they
weren't OO projects. Every year, hundreds of BILLIONS of dollars are
down the drain because of blown IS budgets and cancelled projects. In
fact I would doubt very much that cancelled OO projects to successful OO
projects ratio to be anything near cancelled traditional style projects
vs overall traditional projects. The only reason we hear about failed
traditional systems is that there are so many of them and they are much
more spectacular than the one you are mentioning. Still only a very few
of them get a mention. 

2. You were very right to observe the reasons as to why the project
failed. However, this is a more general syndrom of industrial era
mentality applied to complex systems. 
As we move in the post industrial era, most of our problems come from
our inability to create new types of organizations that can deal with
such situations.

3. I am not a particular fan of the RAD approach. It doesn't imply OO,
in fact, OO is only later tucked on to it. RAD is Today's techniques
applied to Yesterday's organization structure. OO is not essential to
the RAD, and If RAD fails, the failure can not be attributed to its
tucked on OO component.

4. You were right to point out scaling as the biggest problem. However,
OO, though as practiced Today it has its scaling problems, properly done
has a much bigger chance of scaling than the traditional approach.

> OO is pretty easy to sell though. You get the salesman to fly in from
> California, take the managers out to lunch, talk loudly, smoke big cigars
> and so on, then it's back to the conference room for a demo "blah blah,
> ten times faster than existing development environments, blah blah", they
> show how you can build a GUI interface to the database with just a few
> drag'n'drops. Managers are bewitched, they agree to a pilot project to
> build a prototype, in come the consultants to head up the project, they
> knock up a few bubble diagrams, the prototype gets built and looks better
> than anything the managers have ever seen and that's it, they're hooked.

I'm glad to hear that. In my time it was much harder.  

> By the time it all goes horribly wrong, the fast talking consultants who
> did the original "design" are long gone (natch) and are now trying to sell
> someone their Web based solution...

Hey, they have to live, life goes on. What's wrong if they costed a few
millions to be wasted on one client's expense?
Frankly, I couldn't have kept a straight face if I were responsible of
such a failure. 

Anyway, I think that for OO to succeed, there are certain prerequisites.

1. People and the organization that they are in
2. Proper techniques (such as OO)
3. Tools 

People and organizations issue is the most important issue. If you get
the best people and put them into an average organization, they will be
wasted. Why:
Current organizations are based on Smith, Fayol and Taylor's industrial
era principles. These principles are based not on trust and liberty, but
suspect and control. It is a restrictive rather than nourishing
environment. In this environment, people are restricted by the system
they are in, and act accordingly. 
I personally witnessed a case where in a big organization three of my
friends were working on a project they knew it wouldn't be succesful,
because by the time they had finished it, the system that they were
developing the software for would be outdated, and being a legacy
propriotory system, they wouldn't be able to replace hardware, and there
would be no cheap way to port the software. They tried to explain it to
the management, but not wholeheartedly. Nobody listened. As nobody owned
the system, software was finished, and shelved.

In this type of organization the process is divided into little steps of
each would be performed by a non-overlapping team. Only the managers
high up should have the overall vision and knowledge of which most of it
already filtered going up and down; therefore collective vision and
knowledge is nowhere to be found.

Alternative structures are networking organizations. Indeed, there are a
few companies enjoying benefits of human networking, and ours strives to
be one of them.

As for OO, even if it doesn't work, it should work. I saw it working,
and I know it is repeatable.

Tools are another chapter, indeed another book, that can help us out of
our current misery. However, I don't have time to elaborate on that.

Overall, it is a jigsaw, if parts are missing it doesn't look good.

Remember, reading the same Bible, some go to crusade and kill thousands,
some become loving caring people. Using the same knife, a chef creates
masterpieces that are delicious, yet some others use it to threaten
others. Techniques are just like that. Not magic wands. People can use
OO to drown themselves and others in a spectacular mess, or glorify
themselves and their organization. Lets create an unified vision for the
people first, and than expect good results.

Finally, if OO won't work, what are the alternatives, certainly not the
old ways.

Kind Regards

Tansel Ersavas
RASE Inc.
mailto:tansel@deep.net
http://www.rase.com/




  parent reply	other threads:[~1996-12-08  0:00 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 465+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
1996-12-03  0:00 What is wrong with OO ? Ahmed
1996-12-03  0:00 ` Fred Parker
1996-12-03  0:00 ` Bill Gooch
1996-12-03  0:00   ` Bill Gooch
1996-12-04  0:00   ` Ahmed
1996-12-04  0:00     ` Bill Gooch
1996-12-06  0:00       ` Jeff Miller
1996-12-06  0:00         ` Bill Gooch
1996-12-14  0:00         ` Chris
1996-12-06  0:00       ` Ahmed
1996-12-06  0:00         ` Bill Gooch
1996-12-04  0:00 ` Matthew Gream
1996-12-05  0:00   ` Tim Ottinger
1996-12-04  0:00 ` Harry Protoolis
1996-12-04  0:00   ` Joe Winchester
1996-12-05  0:00     ` Russell Corfman
1996-12-04  0:00   ` Robert C. Martin
1996-12-04  0:00     ` Dr. Richard Botting
1996-12-05  0:00     ` Tom Bushell
1996-12-05  0:00       ` Marnix Klooster
1996-12-05  0:00       ` Piercarlo Grandi
1996-12-06  0:00         ` Tom Bushell
1996-12-06  0:00           ` David Bradley
1996-12-08  0:00           ` Piercarlo Grandi
1996-12-10  0:00             ` Piercarlo Grandi
1996-12-10  0:00             ` Todd Hoff
1996-12-11  0:00               ` Nick Leaton
1996-12-11  0:00               ` Nick Leaton
1996-12-11  0:00                 ` Matt Kennel
1996-12-12  0:00                 ` Piercarlo Grandi
1996-12-11  0:00             ` Tom Bushell
1996-12-06  0:00       ` Mukesh Prasad
1996-12-10  0:00         ` Tom Bushell
1996-12-06  0:00       ` Harry Protoolis
1996-12-10  0:00         ` Tom Bushell
1996-12-06  0:00       ` David B. Shapcott [C]
1996-12-06  0:00       ` Carl Weidling
1996-12-06  0:00       ` Roger Vossler
1996-12-10  0:00         ` Tom Bushell
1996-12-10  0:00           ` Roger Vossler
1996-12-12  0:00             ` Don Harrison
1996-12-12  0:00             ` Tom Bushell
1996-12-11  0:00           `  Todd Knarr 
1996-12-11  0:00             ` Alan Meyer
1996-12-12  0:00             ` Ell
1996-12-12  0:00             ` Tom Bushell
     [not found]             ` <58mubr$i <58p5ou$dkm@news3.digex.net>
1996-12-13  0:00               ` Nick Leaton
1996-12-25  0:00                 ` Weiqi Gao
1996-12-25  0:00                   ` Matthew S. Whiting
1996-12-26  0:00                   ` Mike Rubenstein
1996-12-26  0:00                   ` Bob Jarvis
1996-12-26  0:00                     ` Arthur Gold
     [not found]             ` <32aefdb0..406273038@news.nstn.ca>
1996-12-14  0:00               ` "Paul E. Bennett"
1996-12-05  0:00     ` Piercarlo Grandi
1996-12-04  0:00   ` Ahmed
1996-12-06  0:00     ` Harry Protoolis
1996-12-06  0:00       ` Ralph Cook
1996-12-07  0:00         ` Harry Protoolis
1996-12-09  0:00           ` Nigel Tzeng
1996-12-12  0:00             ` David Bradley
1996-12-20  0:00               ` Nigel Tzeng
     [not found]         ` <1996Dec7.151850.877@prim.demon.co.uk>
1996-12-08  0:00           ` Tansel Ersavas [this message]
1996-12-14  0:00             ` Kazimir Majorinc
1996-12-14  0:00               ` Tansel Ersavas
1996-12-14  0:00               ` Jeff Miller
1996-12-16  0:00                 ` David Bradley
1996-12-15  0:00               ` Todd Hoff
1996-12-15  0:00                 ` Patrick Ma
1996-12-16  0:00                   ` Robert C. Martin
1996-12-16  0:00                   ` Bob Kettig
1996-12-15  0:00                 ` Tansel Ersavas
1996-12-20  0:00               ` The Impossible Project: not so funny... (Was: what's wrong) Tim Ottinger
1996-12-20  0:00                 ` Robert Dewar
1996-12-21  0:00                 ` John DiCamillo
1996-12-22  0:00                 ` Guy Rixon
1996-12-22  0:00     ` Chip Richards
1996-12-04  0:00   ` What is wrong with OO ? Roger T.
1996-12-04  0:00 ` Robert C. Martin
1996-12-04  0:00 ` Piercarlo Grandi
1996-12-05  0:00 ` Nick Thurn
1996-12-05  0:00 ` Daniel Drasin
1996-12-06  0:00   ` Steve Heller
1996-12-06  0:00   ` Todd Hoff
1996-12-07  0:00     ` Nick Thurn
1996-12-14  0:00       ` Robert C. Martin
1996-12-15  0:00         ` Todd Hoff
1996-12-15  0:00           ` Joseph W. Seda
1996-12-16  0:00           ` David Bradley
1996-12-19  0:00           ` Robert I. Eachus
1996-12-07  0:00     ` Steve Heller
1996-12-07  0:00       ` Tansel Ersavas
1996-12-09  0:00         ` Kenneth Mays
1996-12-14  0:00         ` Robert C. Martin
1996-12-14  0:00           ` Patrick Ma
1996-12-18  0:00             ` Harry Protoolis
1996-12-18  0:00               ` Patrick Ma
1996-12-18  0:00                 ` Caitlin
1996-12-15  0:00           ` Tansel Ersavas
1996-12-17  0:00             ` Robert Dewar
1996-12-18  0:00               ` Tansel Ersavas
1996-12-27  0:00                 ` clovis
1996-12-27  0:00                   ` Jacqueline U. Robertson
1996-12-27  0:00                     ` Tore Lund
1996-12-28  0:00                       ` Tansel Ersavas
1996-12-28  0:00                         ` Tore Lund
1996-12-31  0:00                         ` Adam Beneschan
1996-12-31  0:00                           ` clovis
1996-12-31  0:00                             ` Neville Black
1996-12-31  0:00                             ` Tansel Ersavas
1997-01-01  0:00                             ` Tom Bushell
1997-01-10  0:00                             ` Bart Samwel
1997-01-10  0:00                               ` Robert Dewar
1997-01-10  0:00                                 ` Assembler most efficient??? (was Re: What is wrong with OO ?) Richie Bielak
1997-01-11  0:00                                   ` Robert Dewar
1997-01-11  0:00                                     ` Larry Kilgallen
1997-01-12  0:00                                       ` Joel VanLaven
1997-01-11  0:00                                     ` James S. Rogers
1997-01-13  0:00                                     ` Richie Bielak
1997-01-15  0:00                                 ` What is wrong with OO ? Richard Kenner
1997-01-11  0:00                               ` Randy A. Ynchausti
1997-01-12  0:00                               ` Piercarlo Grandi
1996-12-31  0:00                           ` Robert C. Martin
1996-12-29  0:00                       ` clovis
1996-12-31  0:00                         ` Tom Bushell
1996-12-31  0:00                           ` clovis
1997-01-10  0:00                           ` Bart Samwel
1996-12-31  0:00                       ` Jon S Anthony
1997-01-01  0:00                       ` Jon S Anthony
1997-01-12  0:00                       ` Corey Minyard
1997-01-14  0:00                         ` Vos nom et pr�nom
1997-01-13  0:00                       ` Nick Thurn
1996-12-28  0:00                     ` clovis
1996-12-30  0:00                       ` John (Max) Skaller
1996-12-29  0:00                         ` Rosimildo da Silva
1996-12-31  0:00                         ` Ian Joyner
1997-01-03  0:00                       ` markj
1997-01-03  0:00                         ` Natan
1996-12-27  0:00                   ` Tore Lund
1996-12-28  0:00                     ` clovis
1996-12-28  0:00                       ` Tore Lund
1996-12-28  0:00                   ` Stephen Pendleton
1996-12-31  0:00                     ` Edward de Jong
1996-12-31  0:00                       ` clovis
1996-12-31  0:00                       ` Nick Leaton
1997-01-01  0:00                       ` Tore Lund
1997-01-01  0:00                         ` Tore Lund
1996-12-19  0:00               ` Robert C. Martin
1996-12-17  0:00             ` Adam Beneschan
1996-12-17  0:00               ` Tansel Ersavas
1996-12-18  0:00                 ` Ralph Cook
1996-12-18  0:00                 ` Adam Beneschan
1996-12-19  0:00                 ` Nick Leaton
1996-12-19  0:00                 ` Robert C. Martin
1996-12-20  0:00                   ` Tansel Ersavas
1996-12-21  0:00                     ` Michael Malak
1996-12-17  0:00             ` Adam Beneschan
1996-12-17  0:00               ` Ralph Cook
1996-12-18  0:00               ` Tansel Ersavas
1996-12-24  0:00             ` Nigel Tzeng
1996-12-26  0:00               ` Tansel Ersavas
1996-12-26  0:00                 ` Bill Gooch
1996-12-16  0:00           ` Karen A. Morrissey
1996-12-16  0:00             ` Bob Kettig
1996-12-17  0:00               ` Robert Dewar
1996-12-17  0:00             ` David Bradley
1996-12-09  0:00       ` Todd Hoff
1996-12-10  0:00         ` Snowball queries
1996-12-10  0:00         ` Steve Heller
1996-12-12  0:00         ` Samuel S. Shuster
1996-12-12  0:00           ` Dr. Richard Botting
1996-12-13  0:00           ` Nick Leaton
1996-12-16  0:00             ` Samuel S. Shuster
1996-12-16  0:00               ` Bob Kettig
1996-12-16  0:00                 ` Robert Dewar
1996-12-17  0:00               ` Nick Leaton
1996-12-17  0:00               ` Tansel Ersavas
1996-12-18  0:00                 ` Tom Bushell
1996-12-18  0:00                   ` Matt Kennel
1996-12-18  0:00                     ` Tansel Ersavas
1996-12-19  0:00                     ` Jeffrey C. Dege
1996-12-20  0:00                       ` Tom Bushell
1996-12-19  0:00                     ` Tom Bushell
1996-12-23  0:00                       ` David Bradley
1996-12-23  0:00                         ` Jeffrey C. Dege
1996-12-19  0:00                     ` David Bradley
1996-12-20  0:00                       ` Chris Brand
     [not found]                       ` <01bbee11$dcae8460$ca61e426@DCorbit.solutionsiq.com>
1996-12-23  0:00                         ` David Bradley
1996-12-19  0:00                   ` Tansel Ersavas
1996-12-27  0:00                     ` clovis
1996-12-15  0:00     ` Damon Feldman
1996-12-06  0:00   ` David Bradley
1996-12-13  0:00   ` drush
1996-12-18  0:00   ` Matt Austern
1996-12-19  0:00     ` Risto Lankinen
1996-12-20  0:00   ` Bill Gooch
1996-12-20  0:00   ` Jon S Anthony
1996-12-20  0:00   ` Jon S Anthony
1996-12-20  0:00   ` Tansel Ersavas
1996-12-20  0:00   ` Tansel Ersavas
1996-12-26  0:00     ` What sells IT (was: What is wrong with OO ?) Cameron Laird
1996-12-23  0:00   ` What is wrong with OO ? Jon S Anthony
1996-12-23  0:00   ` Jon S Anthony
1996-12-26  0:00   ` drush
1996-12-26  0:00   ` drush
1996-12-06  0:00 ` Myles Williams
1996-12-06  0:00 ` Ranjan Bagchi
1996-12-06  0:00   ` Myles Williams
1996-12-07  0:00 ` Kazimir Majorinc
1996-12-14  0:00   ` Chris
  -- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
1996-12-04  0:00 Ell
1996-12-04  0:00 Ell
1996-12-04  0:00 ` Bill Gooch
1996-12-05  0:00 Ell
1996-12-06  0:00 ` Tom Bushell
1996-12-05  0:00 Ell
1996-12-05  0:00 ` Brian Gridley
1996-12-05  0:00   ` Bill Gooch
1996-12-05  0:00 ` Bill Gooch
1996-12-06  0:00 Ell
1996-12-06  0:00 ` H Brett Bolen
1996-12-06  0:00   ` Prashant Gupta
1996-12-14  0:00   ` Chris
1996-12-06  0:00 ` Harry Protoolis
1996-12-06  0:00   ` Robert C. Martin
1996-12-09  0:00     ` Harry Protoolis
1996-12-12  0:00     ` Frederick Sickert
1996-12-06  0:00 ` Nick Leaton
1996-12-06  0:00 Ell
1996-12-06  0:00 ` Robert C. Martin
1996-12-07  0:00   ` Steve Heller
1996-12-06  0:00 ` Thomas Gagne
1996-12-06  0:00   ` Bob Crispen
1996-12-14  0:00     ` Robert C. Martin
1996-12-10  0:00   ` Art Schwarz
1996-12-06  0:00 ` Harry Protoolis
1996-12-07  0:00 Ell
1996-12-07  0:00 ` Harry Protoolis
1996-12-10  0:00   ` Harry Protoolis
1996-12-14  0:00 ` Robert C. Martin
1996-12-16  0:00   ` Nick Leaton
1996-12-16  0:00     ` Robert C. Martin
1996-12-18  0:00       ` Nick Leaton
1996-12-19  0:00         ` Robert C. Martin
     [not found]   ` <01bbeb6f$e2220c40$371883cc@beast.advancedsw.com>
1996-12-16  0:00     ` Robert C. Martin
1996-12-17  0:00       ` Roger T.
1996-12-18  0:00         ` Matt Kennel
     [not found]           ` <01bbed37$23deaa80$371883cc@beast.advancedsw.com>
1996-12-19  0:00             ` Matt Kennel
1996-12-19  0:00         ` Robert C. Martin
1996-12-18  0:00 ` drush
1996-12-11  0:00 Ell
1996-12-11  0:00 Ell
1996-12-13  0:00 ` Harry Protoolis
1996-12-13  0:00   ` Ronald Servant
1996-12-13  0:00     ` matt
1996-12-13  0:00       ` Dan Stubbs
1996-12-18  0:00     ` Harry Protoolis
1996-12-13  0:00 Ell
1996-12-13  0:00 ` drush
1996-12-15  0:00   ` Tansel Ersavas
1996-12-16  0:00     ` Bill Gooch
1996-12-16  0:00     ` Nick Leaton
1996-12-16  0:00       ` Tansel Ersavas
1996-12-19  0:00     ` Samuel Mize
1996-12-14  0:00 Ell
1996-12-14  0:00 Tansel Ersavas
1996-12-16  0:00 ` Tom Bushell
1996-12-22  0:00 ` Willy
1996-12-24  0:00   ` Fraser Wilson
1996-12-15  0:00 Ell
1996-12-15  0:00 ` Tansel Ersavas
1996-12-15  0:00 Tansel Ersavas
1996-12-16  0:00 Marin David Condic, 561.796.8997, M/S 731-93
1996-12-18  0:00 Ell
1996-12-18  0:00 ` Patrick Ma
1996-12-19  0:00 Ell
1996-12-24  0:00 Ell
1996-12-27  0:00 Ell
1996-12-28  0:00 Tansel Ersavas
1996-12-28  0:00 ` Tansel Ersavas
1996-12-31  0:00 Ell
1996-12-31  0:00 ` clovis
1996-12-31  0:00   ` Robert C. Martin
1997-01-01  0:00     ` Nick Thurn
1996-12-31  0:00 ` Jon S Anthony
1997-01-02  0:00   ` Robert C. Martin
1997-01-03  0:00   ` Jon S Anthony
1997-01-03  0:00     ` Robert C. Martin
1997-01-07  0:00   ` Jon S Anthony
1997-01-02  0:00 ` Ian Joyner
1997-01-02  0:00   ` David L. Shang
1996-12-31  0:00 Ell
1996-12-31  0:00 ` Ian Joyner
1996-12-31  0:00   ` Robert C. Martin
1997-01-01  0:00     ` Tom Bushell
1997-01-02  0:00     ` Thaddeus L. Olczyk
1997-01-07  0:00   ` drush
1996-12-31  0:00 ` Nigel Tzeng
1997-01-01  0:00 Ell
1997-01-01  0:00 ` Jon S Anthony
1997-01-02  0:00   ` Robert C. Martin
1997-01-03  0:00     ` Eirik Mangseth
1997-01-03  0:00   ` Matt Austern
1997-01-03  0:00   ` Jon S Anthony
1997-01-04  0:00   ` Valerie Torres
1997-01-06  0:00     ` Bart Samwel
1997-01-08  0:00       ` Robert Dewar
1997-01-09  0:00         ` Simon Willcocks
1997-01-09  0:00           ` Robert Dewar
1997-01-09  0:00         ` Ken Garlington
1997-01-09  0:00         ` Bertrand Meyer
1997-01-09  0:00           ` Robert Dewar
1997-01-10  0:00             ` Fergus Henderson
1997-01-10  0:00               ` Robert Dewar
1997-01-12  0:00                 ` Fergus Henderson
1997-01-09  0:00           ` Ken Garlington
1997-01-09  0:00           ` Jay Martin
1997-01-09  0:00             ` Robert Dewar
1997-01-10  0:00               ` Jay Martin
1997-01-10  0:00                 ` Joe Buck
1997-01-11  0:00                   ` Jay Martin
1997-01-10  0:00               ` Jay Martin
1997-01-12  0:00                 ` Robert Dewar
1997-01-15  0:00                   ` Laurent Gasser
1997-01-15  0:00                     ` Jonas Nygren
1997-01-17  0:00                       ` Tom Bushell
1997-01-17  0:00                         ` Michael Malak
1997-01-17  0:00                           ` Kent Budge, sandia, 
1997-01-17  0:00                         ` Eirik Mangseth
1997-01-15  0:00                     ` Jay Martin
1997-01-10  0:00               ` Fergus Henderson
1997-01-10  0:00                 ` Ken Garlington
1997-01-10  0:00                 ` Robert Dewar
1997-01-12  0:00                   ` Fergus Henderson
1997-01-12  0:00                     ` Robert Dewar
1997-01-12  0:00             ` Slavik Zorin
1997-01-11  0:00           ` Piercarlo Grandi
1997-01-12  0:00             ` Thierry Goubier
1997-01-14  0:00               ` Piercarlo Grandi
1997-01-14  0:00             ` Vos nom et pr�nom
1997-01-16  0:00               ` Mark Woodruff
1997-01-17  0:00               ` Piercarlo Grandi
1997-01-09  0:00         ` Fergus Henderson
1997-01-09  0:00           ` Richie Bielak
1997-01-10  0:00             ` Fergus Henderson
1997-01-09  0:00           ` Robert Dewar
1997-01-10  0:00             ` Fergus Henderson
1997-01-10  0:00               ` Robert Dewar
1997-01-09  0:00         ` William Clodius
1997-01-10  0:00         ` Bart Samwel
1997-01-10  0:00           ` Michael Malak
1997-01-10  0:00             ` Bart Samwel
1997-01-12  0:00               ` Fergus Henderson
1997-01-10  0:00           ` Robert Dewar
1997-01-09  0:00       ` Bjarne Stroustrup
1997-01-11  0:00         ` Robert Dewar
1997-01-15  0:00           ` Bjarne Stroustrup
1997-01-19  0:00             ` Jay Martin
1997-01-27  0:00               ` Robert C. Martin
1997-01-30  0:00                 ` Damon Feldman
1997-01-20  0:00             ` Richard A. O'Keefe
1997-01-21  0:00               ` John W. Sarkela
1997-01-23  0:00               ` Piercarlo Grandi
1997-01-23  0:00             ` Bertrand Meyer
1997-01-25  0:00               ` Damon Feldman
1997-01-26  0:00             ` Sean Case
1997-01-26  0:00               ` William Grosso
1997-01-28  0:00                 ` Paul Keister
1997-01-28  0:00               ` Dann Corbit
1997-01-12  0:00         ` Fergus Henderson
1997-01-13  0:00           ` Bart Samwel
1997-01-12  0:00         ` Matt Telles
1997-01-15  0:00           ` Bjarne Stroustrup
1997-01-19  0:00             ` Matthew Heaney
1997-01-14  0:00         ` Vos nom et pr�nom
1997-01-16  0:00           ` Patrick Doyle
1997-01-16  0:00             ` Risto Lankinen
1997-01-16  0:00               ` Patrick Doyle
1997-01-16  0:00                 ` Risto Lankinen
1997-01-18  0:00                 ` Robert C. Martin
     [not found]           ` <01bc0269$3fd55b20$ca61e426@DCorbit.solutionsiq.com>
1997-02-10  0:00             ` richard
1997-02-10  0:00               ` Robert Dewar
1997-02-10  0:00               ` Nick Leaton
     [not found]                 ` <3303A993.759E@pratique.fr>
1997-02-21  0:00                   ` Nick Leaton
1997-02-21  0:00                   ` Nick Leaton
1997-02-22  0:00                     ` Fergus Henderson
1997-01-20  0:00         ` David Emery
     [not found]       ` <dewar.852772995@mer <dewar.852833957@merv>
1997-01-10  0:00         ` Simon Willcocks
1997-01-10  0:00           ` Robert Dewar
1997-01-10  0:00             ` Marky Mark
1997-01-10  0:00               ` Robert Dewar
1997-01-12  0:00                 ` Fergus Henderson
1997-01-12  0:00                   ` Josh Stern
1997-01-12  0:00             ` Martin ELLISON
1997-01-14  0:00               ` Piercarlo Grandi
1997-01-17  0:00     ` Lawrence G. Mayka
1997-01-19  0:00       ` Piercarlo Grandi
1997-01-07  0:00   ` Jon S Anthony
1997-01-07  0:00   ` Jon S Anthony
1997-01-11  0:00     ` Bjarne Stroustrup
1997-01-21  0:00       ` rharlos*cybercomm.net
1997-02-10  0:00       ` richard
1997-02-10  0:00         ` Charles A. Jolley
1997-02-11  0:00           ` Robert Dewar
1997-02-17  0:00             ` Sam Inala
1997-02-17  0:00               ` Robert Dewar
1997-02-15  0:00           ` Piercarlo Grandi
1997-02-11  0:00         ` Vlastimil Adamovsky
1997-01-10  0:00   ` Pieter Schoenmakers
1997-01-12  0:00     ` Fergus Henderson
1997-01-10  0:00   ` Robert I. Eachus
1997-01-12  0:00     ` Piercarlo Grandi
1997-01-12  0:00   ` Chris Morgan
1997-01-11  0:00     ` Robert Dewar
1997-01-12  0:00   ` Chris Morgan
1997-01-13  0:00   ` Pieter Schoenmakers
1997-01-13  0:00     ` Fergus Henderson
1997-01-13  0:00   ` Chris Morgan
1997-01-13  0:00   ` ak
1997-01-23  0:00   ` Ulrich Windl
1997-01-23  0:00   ` Bertrand Meyer
1997-01-26  0:00     ` Piercarlo Grandi
1997-01-23  0:00   ` Chris Bitmead
1997-01-08  0:00 ` Richard A. O'Keefe
1997-01-01  0:00 Ell
1997-01-02  0:00 ` Mike Anderson
1997-01-02  0:00   ` Dale Pontius
1997-01-02  0:00     ` Bill Hunter
1997-01-01  0:00 Ell
1997-01-01  0:00 ` Tim Ottinger
1997-01-08  0:00 ` Paul Eric Menchen
1997-01-01  0:00 Ell
1997-01-01  0:00 Ell
1997-01-03  0:00 Ell
1997-01-03  0:00 ` Jean-Marc Jezequel
1997-01-03  0:00   ` Eirik Mangseth
1997-01-06  0:00   ` Bill Gooch
1997-01-06  0:00   ` Steven Perryman
1997-01-08  0:00     ` Russ McClelland
1997-01-06  0:00 John Walker
1997-01-10  0:00 Marin David Condic, 561.796.8997, M/S 731-93
1997-01-11  0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1997-01-12  0:00 Marin David Condic, 561.796.8997, M/S 731-93
1997-01-12  0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1997-01-14  0:00 Marin David Condic, 561.796.8997, M/S 731-93
1997-01-15  0:00 Marin David Condic, 561.796.8997, M/S 731-93
1997-01-18  0:00 Ell
1997-02-11  0:00 Ell
1997-02-11  0:00 ` Matt McClellan
1997-02-11  0:00 ` John Brady
1997-02-12  0:00 ` Bob Jarvis
1997-02-12  0:00 ` Russ McClelland
1997-02-12  0:00 ` Jon S Anthony
1997-02-12  0:00   ` Ketil Z Malde
1997-02-12  0:00   ` David B. Shapcott [C]
1997-02-12  0:00   ` Kevin J. Hopps
     [not found]     ` <33049C7C.41C6@wi.leidenuniv.nl>
1997-02-17  0:00       ` Kevin J. Hopps
1997-02-17  0:00         ` phil
1997-02-18  0:00     ` Simon Willcocks
1997-02-12  0:00   ` Hamilton, Robert Bryan       
1997-02-13  0:00   ` Jon S Anthony
1997-02-13  0:00   ` Jon S Anthony
1997-02-13  0:00     ` Hamilton, Robert Bryan       
1997-02-15  0:00   ` Jon S Anthony
1997-02-16  0:00   ` Jon S Anthony
1997-02-13  0:00 ` Ole-Hjalmar Kristensen FOU.TD/DELAB
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