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From: Ken Garlington <garlingtonke@lmtas.lmco.com>
Subject: Re: Ariane 5 failure
Date: 1996/10/01
Date: 1996-10-01T00:00:00+00:00	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <32512F76.58D@lmtas.lmco.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: DyE738.Hzz@beaver.cs.washington.edu


Richard Pattis wrote:
> 
[snip]
> If I were to try to create a lecture on this topic, what other similar
> failures should I know about (beside the legendary Venus probe)?
> Your comments?

"Safeware" by Levison has some additional good examples about what can
go wrong with software. The RISKS conference also has a lot of info on
this.

There was a study done several years ago by a Dr. Avezzianis (I always screw
up that spelling, and I'm always too lazy to go look it up...) trying to
show the worth of N-version programming. He had five teams of students write
code for part of a flight control system. Each team was given the same set
of control law diagrams (which are pretty detailed, as requirements go), and
each team used the same sort of meticulous software engineering approach that
you would expect for a safety-critical system (no formal methods, however).
Each team's software was almost error-free, based on tests done using the
same test data as the actual delivered flight controls.

Note I said "almost". Every team made one mistake. Worse, it was the _same_
mistake. The control law diagrams were copies. The copier apparently wasn't
a good one, because a comma in one of the gains ended up looking like a
decimal point (or maybe it was the other way around -- I forget). Anyway,
the gain was accidentally coded as 2.345 vs 2,345, or something like that.
That kind of error makes a big difference!

In the face of that kind of error, I've never felt that formal methods had a
chance. That's not to say that formal methods can't detect a lot of different
kinds of failures, but at some level some engineer has to be able to say: "That
doesn't make sense..."

If you want to try to find this study, I believe it was reported at a Digital
Avionics Systems Conference many years ago (in San Jose?), probably around 1986.

> 
> Rich

-- 
LMTAS - "Our Brand Means Quality"




  parent reply	other threads:[~1996-10-01  0:00 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 105+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
     [not found] <agrapsDy4oJH.29G@netcom.com>
1996-09-25  0:00 ` Ariane 5 failure @@           robin
1996-09-25  0:00   ` Bob Kitzberger
1996-09-26  0:00     ` Ronald Kunne
1996-09-26  0:00       ` Matthew Heaney
1996-09-27  0:00         ` Ronald Kunne
1996-09-27  0:00           ` Lawrence Foard
1996-10-04  0:00             ` @@           robin
1996-09-28  0:00           ` Ken Garlington
1996-09-28  0:00             ` Ken Garlington
1996-09-29  0:00           ` Alan Brain
1996-09-29  0:00             ` Robert A Duff
1996-09-30  0:00               ` Wayne L. Beavers
1996-10-01  0:00                 ` Ken Garlington
1996-10-01  0:00                   ` Wayne L. Beavers
1996-10-01  0:00                     ` Ken Garlington
1996-10-02  0:00                       ` Sandy McPherson
1996-10-03  0:00                 ` Richard A. O'Keefe
1996-10-01  0:00             ` Ken Garlington
1996-09-27  0:00         ` Wayne Hayes
1996-09-27  0:00           ` Richard Pattis
1996-09-29  0:00             ` Dann Corbit
1996-09-29  0:00             ` Alan Brain
1996-09-29  0:00             ` Chris McKnight
1996-09-29  0:00               ` Real-world education (was: Ariane 5 failure) Michael Feldman
1996-10-01  0:00             ` Ken Garlington [this message]
1996-09-28  0:00         ` Ariane 5 failure Ken Garlington
1996-09-27  0:00       ` Ken Garlington
1996-09-27  0:00       ` Alan Brain
1996-09-28  0:00         ` Ken Garlington
1996-09-29  0:00       ` Louis K. Scheffer
1996-09-25  0:00   ` Michel OLAGNON
1996-09-25  0:00     ` Byron Kauffman
1996-09-25  0:00       ` A. Grant
1996-09-25  0:00         ` Ken Garlington
1996-09-26  0:00         ` Sandy McPherson
1996-09-26  0:00         ` Byron Kauffman
1996-09-27  0:00           ` A. Grant
1996-09-25  0:00     ` Chris Morgan
1996-09-27  0:00   ` John McCabe
1996-10-01  0:00     ` Michael Dworetsky
1996-10-04  0:00       ` Steve Bell
1996-10-07  0:00         ` Ken Garlington
1996-10-09  0:00         ` @@           robin
1996-10-09  0:00           ` Steve O'Neill
1996-10-12  0:00             ` Alan Brain
1996-10-04  0:00     ` @@           robin
1996-10-04  0:00       ` Michel OLAGNON
1996-10-09  0:00         ` @@           robin
1996-10-04  0:00       ` Joseph C Williams
1996-10-06  0:00         ` Wayne Hayes
1996-10-17  0:00       ` Ralf Tilch
1996-10-17  0:00         ` Ravi Sundaram
1996-10-22  0:00           ` shmuel
1996-10-22  0:00             ` Jim Carr
1996-10-24  0:00               ` hayim
1996-10-25  0:00                 ` Michel OLAGNON
1996-10-25  0:00                 ` Ken Garlington
1996-10-01  0:00 Marin David Condic, 407.796.8997, M/S 731-93
1996-10-02  0:00 ` Robert I. Eachus
1996-10-02  0:00   ` Ken Garlington
1996-10-02  0:00 ` Matthew Heaney
1996-10-04  0:00   ` Ken Garlington
1996-10-05  0:00     ` Robert Dewar
1996-10-06  0:00       ` Keith Thompson
1996-10-10  0:00       ` Ken Garlington
1996-10-14  0:00       ` Matthew Heaney
1996-10-15  0:00         ` Robert Dewar
1996-10-16  0:00         ` Ken Garlington
1996-10-18  0:00           ` Keith Thompson
1996-10-18  0:00             ` Ken Garlington
1996-10-18  0:00             ` Samuel T. Harris
1996-10-21  0:00               ` Ken Garlington
1996-10-23  0:00           ` robin
  -- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
1996-10-01  0:00 Marin David Condic, 407.796.8997, M/S 731-93
1996-10-02  0:00 ` Alan Brain
1996-10-02  0:00   ` Ken Garlington
1996-10-02  0:00     ` Matthew Heaney
1996-10-04  0:00       ` Robert S. White
1996-10-05  0:00         ` Alan Brain
1996-10-06  0:00           ` Robert S. White
1996-10-05  0:00         ` Robert Dewar
1996-10-03  0:00     ` Alan Brain
1996-10-04  0:00       ` Ken Garlington
1996-10-01  0:00 Marin David Condic, 407.796.8997, M/S 731-93
1996-10-02  0:00 ` Ken Garlington
1996-10-03  0:00 Marin David Condic, 407.796.8997, M/S 731-93
1996-10-03  0:00 Marin David Condic, 407.796.8997, M/S 731-93
1996-10-03  0:00 Marin David Condic, 407.796.8997, M/S 731-93
1996-10-14  0:00 Marin David Condic, 407.796.8997, M/S 731-93
1996-10-15  0:00 ` Robert I. Eachus
1996-10-15  0:00   ` Robert Dewar
1996-10-16  0:00     ` Michael F Brenner
1996-10-16  0:00       ` Robert Dewar
1996-10-23  0:00 ` robin
1996-10-16  0:00 Marin David Condic, 407.796.8997, M/S 731-93
1996-10-18  0:00 ` Ken Garlington
1996-10-19  0:00   ` Frank Manning
1996-10-21  0:00     ` Norman H. Cohen
1996-10-21  0:00 Marin David Condic, 407.796.8997, M/S 731-93
1996-10-22  0:00 ` Adam Beneschan
1996-10-28  0:00 Marin David Condic, 561.796.8997, M/S 731-93
1996-10-28  0:00 Marin David Condic, 561.796.8997, M/S 731-93
1996-10-29  0:00 ` Ken Garlington
1996-11-08  0:00   ` robin
1996-10-31  0:00 Marin David Condic, 561.796.8997, M/S 731-93
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