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From: Steve O'Neill <smoneill@sanders.lockheed.com>
Subject: Re: Ariane 5 - not an exception?
Date: 1996/08/13
Date: 1996-08-13T00:00:00+00:00	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <3210E4B5.475B@sanders.lockheed.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: 4up6jg$h3e@goanna.cs.rmit.edu.au


++ robin wrote:
I previously said:
>         > So they set about picking
>         >> and choosing which conversions to protect.
> 

to which ++ robin replied:
> ---This doesn't sppear specifically in the report as regards
> this conversion and the 2 others in the vicinity.  There's
> the impliciation that these conversions were overlooked.
> In any case, the test would have introduced a trivial
> number of additional instructions.

Well, here's what the report said:
"It has been state that to the Board that not all of the conversions 
were protected because a maximum workload target of 80% had been set for 
the SRI computer.  To determine the vulnerability of unprotected code, 
an analysis was performed on every operation which could give rise to an 
exception, including an Operand Error.  In particular, the conversion of 
floating point values to integers was analysed and operations involving 
seven variables were at risk of leading to an Operand Error.  This led 
to protection being added to four of the variables, evidence of which 
appears in the Ada code.  However, three of the variables were left 
unprotected.  No reference to justification of this decision was found 
directly in the source code.  Given the large amount of documentation 
associated with any industrial application, the assumption, was 
essentially obscured, though not deliberately, from any external review.

The reason for the three remaining variables, including the one denoting 
horizontal bias, being unprotectedwas that further reasoning indicated 
that they were either physically limited or that there was a large margin 
of safety, a reasoning which in the case of the variable BH turned out to 
be faulty.  It is important to note that the decision to protect certain 
variables but not others was taken jointly by project partners at several 
contractual levels."

So, what this tells us is that they did what they thought was a thorough 
analysis and consciously made the decision to leave 3 variables 
unprotected.  An that this was not a unilateral decision.  I'm not 
saying that this whole approach made sense.  What I am saying is that 
this scenario is independent of the language used.  

Yes, in hindsight, it would have been much easier to add a couple lines 
of code even if it did cost 0.01% of that margin?

and ++robin continues to profess:
> 
> ---As I stated, a PL/I programmer experienced in real-time
> programming, would not have made this stupid mistake.
> 

And with this point I will continue to disagree. I guess that I need to 
learn PL/I since it obviously automatically endows people with god-like 
powers of reasoning that makes it impossible for them to build flawed 
systems.  Wow, I wonder if NASA and the FAA know this?! ;)

++robin> ---You do not appear to have grounds for this opinion.

Well, everyone has grounds for their opinions - it's called belief and 
it's mostly based on their experiences.  My experiences obviously differ 
from yours therefore we have different opinions.  Probably neither mine 
nor yours is entirely right or entirely wrong.

And with that I think I'll stop my participation in this thread.

-- 
Steve O'Neill                      | "No,no,no, don't tug on that!
Sanders, A Lockheed Martin Company |  You never know what it might
smoneill@sanders.lockheed.com      |  be attached to." 
(603) 885-8774  fax: (603) 885-4071|    Buckaroo Banzai




  reply	other threads:[~1996-08-13  0:00 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 194+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
1996-07-25  0:00 Ariane 5 - not an exception? Simon Bluck
1996-07-25  0:00 ` Multiple reasons for failure of Ariane 5 (was: Re: Ariane 5 - not an exception?) Kirk Beitz
1996-07-26  0:00   ` ++           robin
1996-08-05  0:00     ` Darren C Davenport
1996-08-06  0:00       ` U32872
1996-08-07  0:00         ` Robert Dewar
1996-08-08  0:00           ` Pascal Martin @lone
1996-08-09  0:00             ` Robert Dewar
1996-08-10  0:00               ` dwnoon
1996-08-11  0:00                 ` Robert Dewar
1996-08-15  0:00                   ` dwnoon
1996-08-16  0:00                     ` Robert Dewar
1996-08-20  0:00                       ` dwnoon
1996-08-12  0:00                 ` Ken Garlington
1996-08-15  0:00                 ` Richard Riehle
1996-08-22  0:00                   ` ++           robin
1996-08-23  0:00                     ` Ken Garlington
1996-08-31  0:00                     ` Ada versus PL/I " Richard Riehle
1996-09-02  0:00                       ` ++           robin
1996-09-02  0:00                         ` Richard A. O'Keefe
1996-09-03  0:00                           ` ++           robin
1996-09-03  0:00                             ` Robb Nebbe
1996-09-17  0:00                             ` shmuel
1996-09-17  0:00                               ` Jay McFadyen
1996-09-18  0:00                                 ` John McCabe
1996-09-20  0:00                               ` shmuel
1996-09-03  0:00                       ` ++           robin
1996-09-04  0:00                         ` Robert Dewar
1996-09-07  0:00                           ` ++           robin
1996-09-06  0:00                             ` PL/I or PL/1 Larry Hazel
1996-09-03  0:00                       ` Ada versus PL/I (was: Re: Ariane 5 - not an exception?) J. Kanze
1996-09-07  0:00                         ` Robert Dewar
1996-09-09  0:00                           ` ++           robin
1996-09-09  0:00                             ` Robert Dewar
1996-09-09  0:00                               ` Ken Garlington
1996-09-11  0:00                     ` Multiple reasons for failure of Ariane 5 " J.Worringen
1996-09-12  0:00                       ` Ken Garlington
1996-09-14  0:00                       ` Use DejaNews to retrieve Ariane discussion David Alex Lamb
1996-09-19  0:00                         ` Earl H. Kinmonth
1996-09-14  0:00                       ` Multiple reasons for failure of Ariane 5 (was: Re: Ariane 5 - not an exception?) David Alex Lamb
1996-08-11  0:00               ` ++           robin
     [not found]               ` <4uibvh$References: <Dv45EJ.8r@fsa.bris.ac.uk>
1996-08-16  0:00                 ` A. Grant
1996-08-08  0:00         ` bohn
1996-07-26  0:00   ` Robert I. Eachus
1996-08-23  0:00   ` Jon S Anthony
1996-08-26  0:00     ` ++           robin
1996-08-23  0:00   ` Jon S Anthony
1996-08-23  0:00     ` ++           robin
1996-08-23  0:00       ` Richard A. O'Keefe
1996-08-23  0:00         ` Ken Garlington
1996-08-26  0:00         ` ++           robin
1996-08-27  0:00           ` Ken Garlington
1996-08-28  0:00             ` Larry Kilgallen
1996-08-29  0:00               ` Ken Garlington
1996-08-30  0:00             ` ++           robin
1996-08-30  0:00               ` David Weller
1996-09-04  0:00               ` Ken Garlington
1996-09-06  0:00                 ` Sandy McPherson
1996-09-09  0:00                   ` Ken Garlington
1996-08-30  0:00         ` Jon S Anthony
1996-08-26  0:00       ` Ken Garlington
1996-08-26  0:00         ` Dave Jones
1996-08-27  0:00           ` Ken Garlington
1996-08-30  0:00             ` ++           robin
1996-09-04  0:00               ` Ken Garlington
1996-09-06  0:00                 ` ++           robin
1996-09-18  0:00               ` Merlin Dorfman
1996-09-20  0:00                 ` John McCabe
1996-08-30  0:00         ` ++           robin
1996-08-30  0:00           ` John McCabe
1996-09-06  0:00       ` Jon S Anthony
1996-09-06  0:00         ` Robert Dewar
1996-07-26  0:00 ` Ariane 5 - not an exception? ++           robin
1996-07-29  0:00   ` Bill Angel
1996-07-29  0:00     ` Paul_Green
1996-07-30  0:00     ` Ken Garlington
1996-07-30  0:00     ` Lloyd Fischer
1996-07-30  0:00     ` Bob Kurtz
1996-07-30  0:00     ` Richard Shetron
1996-07-30  0:00       ` ++           robin
1996-07-30  0:00     ` Nancy Mead
1996-07-31  0:00       ` Tucker Taft
1996-07-31  0:00       ` Steve O'Neill
1996-08-01  0:00       ` root
1996-08-01  0:00         ` Tucker Taft
1996-08-04  0:00     ` Richard Riehle
1996-08-05  0:00       ` Fergus Henderson
1996-08-05  0:00       ` Nigel Tzeng
1996-08-06  0:00         ` John McCabe
1996-08-05  0:00       ` John McCabe
1996-08-13  0:00       ` ++           robin
1996-08-13  0:00         ` Darren C Davenport
1996-08-13  0:00         ` Ken Garlington
1996-08-13  0:00           ` Kirk Bradley
1996-08-14  0:00             ` Ken Garlington
1996-08-18  0:00           ` PL/I Versus Ada (Was: Arianne ...) Richard Riehle
1996-08-19  0:00             ` Robert Dewar
1996-08-20  0:00             ` Lon Amick
1996-08-21  0:00             ` Tony Konashenok
1996-08-28  0:00               ` Richard Riehle
1996-08-29  0:00                 ` Lon D. Gowen, Ph.D.
1996-08-30  0:00                   ` Tony Konashenok
1996-08-30  0:00                     ` Adam Beneschan
1996-08-30  0:00                 ` John McCabe
1996-08-21  0:00             ` Lon D. Gowen, Ph.D.
1996-08-21  0:00             ` Tim Dugan
1996-08-23  0:00             ` arbuckj
1996-08-22  0:00           ` Ariane 5 - not an exception? ++           robin
1996-08-22  0:00             ` Ken Garlington
1996-08-14  0:00         ` John McCabe
1996-08-19  0:00           ` Chris Papademetrious
1996-08-22  0:00           ` ++           robin
1996-08-22  0:00             ` Martin Tom Brown
1996-08-22  0:00             ` John McCabe
1996-08-23  0:00               ` Ken Garlington
1996-08-24  0:00                 ` John McCabe
1996-08-26  0:00                   ` Byron B. Kauffman
1996-08-27  0:00                     ` John McCabe
1996-08-28  0:00                       ` Byron B. Kauffman
1996-08-28  0:00                         ` Robert Dewar
1996-08-29  0:00                           ` Ted Dennison
1996-08-30  0:00                         ` John McCabe
1996-08-23  0:00             ` Bob Gilbert
1996-08-24  0:00               ` Robert I. Eachus
1996-08-25  0:00                 ` John McCabe
1996-08-27  0:00                 ` Tom Speer
1996-08-26  0:00               ` Jon S Anthony
1996-08-20  0:00         ` Richard Riehle
1996-07-30  0:00   ` Ken Garlington
1996-08-02  0:00     ` Craig P. Beyers
1996-07-30  0:00   ` Steve O'Neill
1996-07-31  0:00     ` Martin Tom Brown
1996-07-31  0:00       ` Nigel Tzeng
1996-08-02  0:00       ` Ken Garlington
1996-08-03  0:00         ` Thomas Kendelbacher
1996-08-01  0:00     ` ++           robin
1996-08-01  0:00       ` Ken Garlington
1996-08-05  0:00         ` John McCabe
1996-08-06  0:00           ` Ken Garlington
1996-08-06  0:00           ` Mark van Walraven
1996-08-06  0:00           ` Ken Garlington
1996-08-02  0:00       ` Pascal Martin @lone
1996-08-03  0:00         ` Dr. Richard Botting
1996-08-05  0:00           ` system
1996-08-06  0:00         ` ++           robin
1996-08-08  0:00           ` Darius Blasband
1996-08-10  0:00             ` dwnoon
1996-08-12  0:00               ` Thomas Kendelbacher
1996-08-13  0:00                 ` ++           robin
1996-08-13  0:00             ` ++           robin
1996-08-13  0:00             ` Roy Gardiner
1996-08-13  0:00               ` Ken Garlington
1996-08-13  0:00               ` Lance Kibblewhite
1996-08-15  0:00             ` Richard Riehle
1996-08-05  0:00       ` Steve O'Neill
1996-08-06  0:00         ` Frank Manning
1996-08-08  0:00           ` Steve O'Neill
1996-08-09  0:00             ` Pat Rogers
1996-08-09  0:00           ` JP Thornley
1996-08-06  0:00         ` Francis Lipski
1996-08-07  0:00           ` Martin Tom Brown
1996-08-09  0:00             ` Ken Garlington
1996-08-13  0:00         ` ++           robin
1996-08-13  0:00           ` Steve O'Neill [this message]
1996-08-01  0:00   ` Jon S Anthony
1996-08-02  0:00   ` James Kanze US/ESC 60/3/141 #40763
1996-08-06  0:00   ` Stefan 'Stetson' Skoglund
1996-08-06  0:00   ` Robert I. Eachus
1996-07-26  0:00 ` Bob Gilbert
1996-07-29  0:00   ` Martin Tom Brown
1996-07-30  0:00     ` John McCabe
1996-07-31  0:00       ` Greg Bond
1996-08-03  0:00         ` John McCabe
1996-07-26  0:00 ` Theodore E. Dennison
1996-07-29  0:00   ` Ken Garlington
1996-07-26  0:00 ` JP Thornley
1996-07-29  0:00   ` Nigel Tzeng
1996-07-29  0:00   ` JP Thornley
1996-07-29  0:00   ` Ken Garlington
1996-07-30  0:00   ` Robert I. Eachus
1996-07-31  0:00     ` JP Thornley
1996-08-01  0:00       ` Alan Brain
1996-08-02  0:00         ` JP Thornley
1996-08-01  0:00   ` Ken Garlington
1996-07-27  0:00 ` Bill Angel
1996-07-30  0:00 ` Dr. Richard Botting
1996-07-30  0:00   ` David Weller
1996-07-30  0:00     ` Robert Dewar
  -- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
1996-08-08  0:00 Marin David Condic, 407.796.8997, M/S 731-93
1996-08-09  0:00 ` John McCabe
1996-08-13  0:00 Marin David Condic, 407.796.8997, M/S 731-93
1996-08-15  0:00 ` John McCabe
1996-08-13  0:00 Marin David Condic, 407.796.8997, M/S 731-93
1996-08-15  0:00 ` John McCabe
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