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From: Ken Garlington <garlingtonke@lfwc.lockheed.com>
Subject: Re: Ada Core Technologies and Ada95 Standards
Date: 1996/04/01
Date: 1996-04-01T00:00:00+00:00	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <315FD5C9.342F@lfwc.lockheed.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: dewar.828157508@schonberg

Robert Dewar wrote:

> John McCabe said
> 
> I was obviously thinking of validation of Ada compilers in the same
> way that _my_ software is validated - i.e a full set of test cases
> proving that _all_ requirements have been met. If I cannot prove this,
> my software is not accepted by my customer.
> 
>   100% reliability via testing is only achievable for very simple tasks
>   that can be fully specified formally, and for which the number of
>   possible independent tests is finite.

Since I often find myself expressing the same sentiments as Mr. McCabe, I
thought I'd add my two cents:

I can't disagree with anything in your response. However, when my company
does testing, there are several things that happen. I suspect some of these
happen in Mr. McCabe's shop as well:

1. We have a requirements specification that uniquely identifies each
requirement.

2. We have a test or set of tests which can be traced back to each requirement.

3. We have consultations with the end user of the system to see if the tests
are adequate, and reflect the usage of the system.

4. In addition to functional tests, we may also have other tests designed to
meet certain criteria (particularly for safety-critical software). This criteria
might include measures of statement/branch/path coverage and/or measures of data
coverage.

5. In addition to the use of "tests" in the narrow sense of throwing inputs
at the software and looking at the outputs, we can also use other analytical tools 
with regard to software quality, such as peer reviews of the design and 
implementation of the compiler, static analysis tools, etc.

6. Not that it happens much in my systems, but if a deficiency were found in a
product after release, a test that checks for that deficiency gets added back
into the test suite.

It's probably just ignorance on my part about the ACVC process, but I don't
get that same sense of rigor in the ACVC design. A lot of what's known about
good processes for software testing (as documented by Beizer and others)
isn't apparent from what little I've heard about the ACVC, and from reading the
old ACVC 1.0 tests.

I know that NPL has a tool that they sell that tests Ada compilers for bugs, that
apparently provides much more coverage than the ACVC. Why should such a tool
exist outside of the validation/certification process?

Ada provides some wonderful technology for building dependable systems, but
(and this sounds harsher than I intend) it's not clear that the compiler vendors
always "practice what they preach." It would seem to me that one of the most
dependable systems of a comparible size would be an Ada compiler, since Ada 
encourages the development of dependable software. The presentation of the Verdix
Ada vs.C++ compiler at TRI-Ada aside, does this generally appear to be the case?

Maybe it's just perception that's at issue here. When someone says, "ACVC doesn't
say anything about usability for a particular purpose," I understand why that's
said, but my heart sinks nonetheless. Why not an attitude of, "Even though
we can't guarantee 100% correctness, we will by God use every tool at our
disposal to identify deficiencies"? As it stands now, I get to do that particular 
task (in parallel with every other user who needs a reliable product)...




  reply	other threads:[~1996-04-01  0:00 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 106+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
1996-03-25  0:00 Ada Core Technologies and Ada95 Standards Kenneth Mays
1996-03-25  0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1996-03-28  0:00   ` John McCabe
1996-03-28  0:00     ` Robert Dewar
1996-03-29  0:00       ` John McCabe
1996-03-29  0:00         ` Robert Dewar
1996-04-01  0:00           ` Ken Garlington [this message]
1996-04-01  0:00             ` Robert Dewar
1996-04-02  0:00               ` Ken Garlington
1996-04-02  0:00                 ` John McCabe
1996-04-02  0:00                   ` Robert A Duff
1996-04-02  0:00                   ` Robert Dewar
1996-04-03  0:00                     ` Ken Garlington
1996-04-04  0:00                       ` Robert Dewar
1996-04-04  0:00                         ` Ken Garlington
1996-04-05  0:00                           ` Robert Dewar
1996-04-10  0:00                             ` Ken Garlington
1996-04-10  0:00                 ` Robert Dewar
1996-04-10  0:00                   ` Robert Dewar
1996-04-12  0:00                     ` Philip Brashear
1996-04-12  0:00                       ` Robert Dewar
1996-04-15  0:00                     ` Tiring Arguments Around (not about) Two Questions Ken Garlington
1996-04-15  0:00                       ` Gary McKee
1996-04-16  0:00                         ` Ken Garlington
1996-04-17  0:00                       ` Kenneth Almquist
1996-04-18  0:00                     ` Ada Core Technologies and Ada95 Standards John McCabe
1996-04-19  0:00                       ` Robert Dewar
1996-04-22  0:00                         ` John McCabe
1996-04-23  0:00                           ` Ken Garlington
1996-04-24  0:00                             ` Robert Dewar
1996-04-26  0:00                               ` Ken Garlington
1996-04-24  0:00                             ` John McCabe
1996-04-24  0:00                               ` Robert Dewar
1996-04-26  0:00                                 ` Ken Garlington
1996-04-26  0:00                                 ` John McCabe
1996-04-26  0:00                                 ` John McCabe
1996-04-25  0:00                               ` Ken Garlington
1996-04-24  0:00                           ` Robert Dewar
1996-04-26  0:00                             ` Ken Garlington
1996-04-27  0:00                               ` Robert Dewar
1996-04-22  0:00                         ` Ken Garlington
1996-04-15  0:00                   ` Ken Garlington
1996-04-16  0:00                     ` Robert Dewar
1996-04-16  0:00                       ` Ken Garlington
1996-04-16  0:00                         ` Robert Dewar
1996-04-02  0:00               ` John McCabe
1996-04-02  0:00             ` John McCabe
1996-04-02  0:00               ` Robert A Duff
1996-04-16  0:00                 ` John McCabe
1996-04-16  0:00                   ` Robert Dewar
1996-04-22  0:00                     ` John McCabe
1996-04-23  0:00                       ` Ken Garlington
1996-04-24  0:00                         ` Robert Dewar
1996-04-26  0:00                           ` Ken Garlington
1996-04-27  0:00                             ` Robert Dewar
1996-04-29  0:00                               ` Cordes MJ
1996-04-29  0:00                                 ` Robert Dewar
1996-05-06  0:00                                   ` John McCabe
1996-05-06  0:00                                     ` Robert Dewar
1996-05-08  0:00                                       ` John McCabe
1996-05-08  0:00                                         ` TARTAN and TI Tom Robinson
1996-05-09  0:00                                           ` Arthur Evans Jr
     [not found]                                         ` <Dr46LG.2FF@world.std.com>
1996-05-09  0:00                                           ` Ada Core Technologies and Ada95 Standards John McCabe
1996-05-07  0:00                                     ` Mike Cordes
1996-05-07  0:00                                     ` Mike Cordes
1996-04-10  0:00             ` Robert Dewar
1996-04-15  0:00               ` Ken Garlington
1996-04-16  0:00                 ` Robert Dewar
1996-04-16  0:00                   ` Ken Garlington
1996-04-16  0:00                     ` Robert Dewar
1996-04-18  0:00                       ` Ken Garlington
1996-03-31  0:00         ` Geert Bosch
1996-04-01  0:00           ` Robert Dewar
1996-04-01  0:00             ` Mike Young
1996-04-03  0:00               ` Robert Dewar
1996-03-29  0:00   ` Applet Magic works great, sort of Vince Del Vecchio
1996-03-29  0:00   ` Ada Core Technologies and Ada95 Standards steved
1996-03-29  0:00     ` Applet Magic works great, sort of Bob Crispen
1996-04-03  0:00   ` Ada Core Technologies and Ada95 Standards Robert I. Eachus
1996-04-03  0:00   ` Ken Garlington
1996-04-04  0:00     ` Robert Dewar
1996-04-04  0:00       ` John McCabe
1996-04-05  0:00         ` Robert Dewar
1996-04-06  0:00           ` Ada validation is virtually worthless Raj Thomas
1996-04-06  0:00             ` Robert Dewar
1996-04-08  0:00               ` Arthur Evans Jr
1996-04-07  0:00           ` Ada Core Technologies and Ada95 Standards John McCabe
1996-04-05  0:00   ` Robert I. Eachus
1996-04-10  0:00     ` Cordes MJ
1996-04-10  0:00       ` Robert Dewar
1996-04-15  0:00         ` Ken Garlington
1996-04-16  0:00           ` Robert Dewar
1996-04-16  0:00             ` Ken Garlington
1996-04-16  0:00               ` Robert Dewar
1996-04-11  0:00   ` Robert I. Eachus
1996-04-11  0:00   ` Robert I. Eachus
1996-04-19  0:00   ` Laurent Guerby
1996-04-25  0:00   ` Tiring Arguments Around (not about) Two Questions [VERY LONG] Laurent Guerby
1996-04-26  0:00   ` Ken Garlington
1996-04-29  0:00     ` Philip Brashear
  -- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
1996-04-01  0:00 Ada Core Technologies and Ada95 Standards Simon Johnston
1996-04-24  0:00 W. Wesley Groleau (Wes)
1996-04-25  0:00 ` Ken Garlington
1996-04-25  0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1996-04-25  0:00   ` Theodore E. Dennison
1996-04-29  0:00 Marin David Condic, 407.796.8997, M/S 731-93
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