From: Dmitry A. Kazakov <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de>
Subject: Re: Anybody in US using ADA ? One silly idea..
Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2003 10:59:39 +0100
Date: 2003-02-03T10:59:39+01:00 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <2b9s3vo3bbnaikqd6d4jpppfflfq2kbgfu@4ax.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: 1044033063.693737@master.nyc.kbcfp.com
On Fri, 31 Jan 2003 12:11:03 -0500, Hyman Rosen <hyrosen@mail.com>
wrote:
>Dmitry A. Kazakov wrote:
>> I do not see how this would make one substitutable for another.
>
>This makes it possible to write code that works seamlessly with
>the different kinds of string, as long as the operations used
>are common to all of them. In C++ you just write your generic
>method, and the compiler instantiates it for the types you
>supply, without you having to tell it anything.
In this case the types a siblings, not subtypes.
BTW generics give us an example of substituatability independent on
the type representation. Consider a generic function:
generic
type X is private;
procedure Foo (Arg : X);
Here, any "private" is substitutable for Arg. I can be Integer, Float,
almost everything.
>> Thunk code.
>
>Huh? What does this mean? That thunk code needs to be generated
>to do what you want?
To make view conversion when an inherited method is called.
> I know that. But things don't work this
>way in Ada, C++, or Java, at least as far as I know about Ada.
>
>> I do not want flawed implicit type conversions. I want sub- and
>> supertyping. If an implementation of sub-/supertyping is based
> > on some conversions, I do not care.
>
>But as I keep repeating, your concept of sub/supertyping is at odds
>with the general understanding of this. When you describe what you
>want, it looks like two-way type conversion is the only thing that
>is necessaery, so it is natural to ask why inheritance should be
>involved in this at all.
It is inheritance in my view. If there are two things present for a
method and a type:
1) substitutability (conversions is a way to provide it)
2) automatic substitution [by the compiler]
then I say that the method is inherited by the type.
>> procedure Query (X : in out Float);
>> -- The initial value is used as a default
>> ...
>> I : Integer := 10;
>> begin
>> Query (Float (I));
>
>Cool. More stuff I didn't know about Ada. But to quote from the Ada RM,
> "If the target type is tagged, then an assignment to the view
> assigns to the corresponding part of the object denoted by
> the operand;"
>so as I've been saying, Ada follows the conventional view that an
>object is its base type(s), without any conversions needed. The
>view conversion for a tagged type just winds up pointing at the
>appropriate subobject.
"just winds up pointing" *is* a conversion. Imagine that other sorts
were allowed too!
>Hmm. the same section continues
> "otherwise, an assignment to the view assigns to the object,
> after converting the assigned value to the subtype of the
> object (which might raise Constraint_Error);"
>
>Ada experts - does this mean that each time the Query routine
>above assigns a value to X it has to know that X is really a
>view conversion of I, and check for error? Or can it just do
>the check once at copy-out time? The former would seem to add
>draconian complexity to subroutines.
You can do conversions at a call point. That is the whole idea of
substitutability. The "inherited" method remains same. You just
compose it with apporipriate conversions to and back.
>> A given object may have only one type.
>
>Says who?
Me, is that matter? (:-))
There could be many type theories, but the simpliest one is to require
that there is only one type of a given value.
>> If C is A why memcpy does not work?
>
>Because memcpy yields undefined behavior when copying
>C++ objects around. On the other hand, X = Y will work
>perfectly fine.
Then you should explain what "is a" does mean. It is definitely not
mathematical =, as memcpy shows.
It is rather a sort of equivalence. Equivalence in OO is defined as
substitutability, which does not necessarily imply equality. So C is
not A, C is only substitutable for A, i.e. it is an equivalent to A.
>> subtype Positive is Integer range 0..Integer'Last;
>
>You know, I used to think that C++ could benefit from having
>Ada-like subranges. Thanks for opening my eyes :-)
>
>> It is not better. My point was: we should check as much as possible at
>> compile-time. Your point was: we should check only things actually
>> used in the given program, as templates do. I gave you an example why
>> it is a bad idea. You responded with another example. So the point
>> stands.
>
>I think I failed to understand your example, then.
>You say that we should check as much as possible at
>compile-time, but what does that mean? Perhaps I
>should require that my types all be able to dance a
>soft-shoe number, in case I have to give a demo of
>my code to executives? You claim that there is benefit
>in requiring that types support unused operations. I
>don't see what that benefit is, or where you cut off
>the infinite list of possible operations that a type
>could conceivably support.
If you define a type, say, "field". Then you should implement all
operations of the field. Otherwise, it is not a field, but a group or
something else. So the users of your type would have no delusions
about it. If it has interface of a group, why to present it as field?
It is just DbC. Ada gives an example of this approach: when you derive
from an abstract type, the derived non-abstract type has to implement
all abstract operations, no matter whether some of them will never be
used. Failure to do that is a *compile-time* error. Same thing with
C++ templates produces a "valid" program! (Ada generics are safer in
this respect)
---
Regards,
Dmitry Kazakov
www.dmitry-kazakov.de
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2003-02-03 9:59 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 341+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2002-12-31 18:37 Anybody in US using ADA ? Mr Bill
2002-12-31 18:55 ` John R. Strohm
2003-01-01 3:20 ` Marin David Condic
2003-01-01 7:11 ` tmoran
2003-01-01 14:31 ` Marin David Condic
2003-01-01 22:49 ` tmoran
2003-01-02 12:45 ` Marin David Condic
2003-01-02 18:08 ` Anybody in US using ADA ? New language competition? Warren W. Gay VE3WWG
2003-01-03 2:47 ` Marin David Condic
2003-01-03 6:01 ` Robert C. Leif
2003-01-03 17:58 ` Anybody in US using ADA ? New language competition? (long) Warren W. Gay VE3WWG
2003-01-04 14:57 ` Marin David Condic
2003-01-06 15:53 ` Wes Groleau
2003-01-06 16:36 ` Larry Kilgallen
2003-01-06 20:47 ` Randy Brukardt
2003-01-07 13:15 ` Wes Groleau
2003-01-07 19:05 ` Randy Brukardt
2003-01-07 19:37 ` Larry Kilgallen
2003-01-07 20:52 ` Wes Groleau
2003-01-08 20:05 ` Randy Brukardt
2003-01-07 21:23 ` Georg Bauhaus
2003-01-08 0:30 ` Richard Riehle
2003-01-08 20:12 ` Randy Brukardt
2003-01-07 13:11 ` Marin David Condic
2003-01-06 18:22 ` Warren W. Gay VE3WWG
2003-01-06 20:52 ` Randy Brukardt
2003-01-07 13:56 ` Marin David Condic
2003-01-07 19:15 ` Randy Brukardt
2003-01-08 13:14 ` Marin David Condic
2003-01-08 18:04 ` tmoran
2003-01-08 18:05 ` Warren W. Gay VE3WWG
2003-01-08 20:20 ` Larry Kilgallen
2003-01-09 13:21 ` Marin David Condic
2003-01-08 20:24 ` Randy Brukardt
2003-01-09 13:34 ` Marin David Condic
2003-01-07 13:50 ` Marin David Condic
2003-01-07 17:48 ` Warren W. Gay VE3WWG
2003-01-08 13:34 ` Marin David Condic
2003-01-08 18:04 ` tmoran
2003-01-08 18:16 ` Warren W. Gay VE3WWG
2003-01-09 13:22 ` chris.danx
2003-01-09 13:53 ` Marin David Condic
2003-01-09 15:09 ` Raster graphics [was Anybody in US using ADA ? New language competition? (long)] Chad R. Meiners
2003-01-11 19:23 ` chris.danx
2003-01-03 9:57 ` Anybody in US using ADA ? Kevin Cline
2003-01-03 12:37 ` Marin David Condic
2003-01-03 15:32 ` Anybody in US using ADA ? | for interrest Mark
2003-01-09 0:59 ` Anybody in US using ADA ? faust
2003-01-08 12:53 ` Marin David Condic
2003-01-05 17:04 ` Adrian Hoe
2003-01-06 20:06 ` Randy Brukardt
2003-01-07 2:07 ` Jeffrey Creem
2003-01-07 3:22 ` Jeffrey Creem
2003-01-05 17:06 ` Adrian Hoe
2003-01-02 3:05 ` faust
2003-01-02 3:07 ` faust
2003-01-02 22:09 ` Robert C. Leif
2003-01-02 17:57 ` Anybody in US using ADA ? One silly idea Warren W. Gay VE3WWG
2003-01-02 18:29 ` Vinzent Hoefler
2003-01-02 22:02 ` Warren W. Gay VE3WWG
2003-01-02 20:36 ` Bill Findlay
2003-01-03 2:56 ` Marin David Condic
2003-01-03 4:11 ` sk
2003-01-03 4:43 ` Bill Findlay
2003-01-03 6:01 ` Robert C. Leif
2003-01-07 17:47 ` Kevin Cline
2003-01-07 19:49 ` tmoran
2003-01-09 5:15 ` Kevin Cline
2003-01-03 13:16 ` Marin David Condic
2003-01-03 18:28 ` Bill Findlay
2003-01-04 15:17 ` Marin David Condic
2003-01-09 16:36 ` faust
[not found] ` <roliva.8b4.ln@beastie.ix.netcom.com>
2003-01-09 4:32 ` Hyman Rosen
2003-01-03 20:07 ` tmoran
2003-01-03 23:06 ` Martin Dowie
2003-01-09 16:22 ` faust
2003-01-04 7:07 ` Robert C. Leif
2003-01-04 17:49 ` Steve
2003-01-05 3:07 ` Robert C. Leif
2003-01-07 12:38 ` Richard Riehle
2003-01-09 16:36 ` faust
2003-01-09 16:37 ` Harness your own creativity to Ada (Re: Anybody in US using ADA ? One silly idea..) faust
2003-01-03 9:24 ` Anybody in US using ADA ? One silly idea Kevin Cline
2003-01-03 10:11 ` John R. Strohm
2003-01-03 13:23 ` Marin David Condic
2003-01-03 18:40 ` John R. Strohm
2003-01-04 9:05 ` Kevin Cline
2003-01-04 16:34 ` John R. Strohm
2003-01-03 19:40 ` Kevin Cline
2003-01-03 22:34 ` Ted Dennison
2003-01-04 8:53 ` Kevin Cline
2003-01-04 11:48 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2003-01-04 18:15 ` Robert A Duff
2003-01-04 20:18 ` Hillel Y. Sims
2003-01-05 14:13 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2003-01-05 15:45 ` James S. Rogers
2003-01-06 14:13 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2003-01-06 1:20 ` Hillel Y. Sims
2003-01-06 14:14 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2003-01-06 19:07 ` Randy Brukardt
2003-01-07 12:33 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2003-01-08 4:24 ` Hyman Rosen
2003-01-08 13:55 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2003-01-08 18:43 ` Wes Groleau
2003-01-08 21:54 ` Ted Dennison
2003-01-09 5:05 ` Hyman Rosen
2003-01-06 1:37 ` Robert C. Leif
2003-01-06 14:13 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2003-01-06 19:13 ` Pascal Obry
2003-01-07 12:02 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2003-01-07 3:00 ` Hyman Rosen
2003-01-07 12:10 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2003-01-08 3:41 ` Hyman Rosen
2003-01-08 13:19 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2003-01-09 4:23 ` Hyman Rosen
2003-01-10 13:51 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2003-01-13 17:05 ` Hyman Rosen
2003-01-15 17:04 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2003-01-15 17:23 ` Hyman Rosen
2003-01-15 18:19 ` Bill Findlay
2003-01-15 19:02 ` Hyman Rosen
2003-01-15 19:11 ` Bill Findlay
2003-01-15 22:51 ` chris.danx
2003-01-15 23:39 ` Bill Findlay
2003-01-15 23:57 ` chris.danx
2003-01-16 0:32 ` Bill Findlay
2003-01-16 5:23 ` Richard Riehle
2003-01-16 16:33 ` One sillier idea Wes Groleau
2003-01-16 17:17 ` sk
2003-01-16 17:11 ` Anybody in US using ADA ? One silly idea Hyman Rosen
2003-01-16 17:50 ` Richard Riehle
2003-01-16 17:57 ` Frank J. Lhota
2003-01-16 18:26 ` Wes Groleau
2003-01-17 8:27 ` Anders Wirzenius
[not found] ` <h0770b.5e3.ln@beastie.ix.netcom.com>
2003-01-17 17:32 ` Warren W. Gay VE3WWG
2003-01-17 17:31 ` Warren W. Gay VE3WWG
2003-01-16 0:19 ` Richard Riehle
2003-01-16 0:16 ` chris.danx
2003-01-16 0:46 ` Bill Findlay
2003-01-16 1:19 ` Jeffrey Carter
2003-01-16 2:44 ` Richard Riehle
2003-01-16 0:24 ` Bill Findlay
2003-01-16 10:34 ` Jean-Pierre Rosen
2003-01-16 18:20 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2003-01-16 18:59 ` Hyman Rosen
2003-01-17 4:09 ` Richard Riehle
2003-01-17 14:36 ` Hyman Rosen
2003-01-17 16:28 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2003-01-17 17:23 ` Hyman Rosen
2003-01-17 19:02 ` Richard Riehle
2003-01-17 20:02 ` Hyman Rosen
2003-01-25 1:40 ` Richard Riehle
2003-01-26 4:57 ` Hyman Rosen
2003-01-18 12:31 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2003-01-18 22:53 ` Hillel Y. Sims
2003-01-19 6:18 ` Kevin Cline
2003-01-19 12:34 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2003-01-21 2:10 ` Hillel Y. Sims
2003-01-21 9:25 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2003-01-21 18:55 ` Kevin Cline
2003-01-23 11:00 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2003-01-23 16:27 ` Hyman Rosen
2003-01-25 11:53 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2003-01-26 6:32 ` Hyman Rosen
2003-01-27 10:11 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2003-01-27 15:08 ` Hyman Rosen
2003-01-28 8:27 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2003-01-28 15:48 ` Kevin Cline
2003-01-28 16:29 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2003-01-28 17:14 ` Hyman Rosen
2003-01-29 8:28 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2003-01-28 17:11 ` Hyman Rosen
2003-01-29 8:37 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2003-01-29 15:44 ` Hyman Rosen
2003-01-29 21:34 ` Mark Biggar
2003-01-29 22:54 ` Hyman Rosen
2003-01-30 9:03 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2003-01-30 14:59 ` Hyman Rosen
2003-01-30 16:32 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2003-01-30 17:58 ` Hyman Rosen
2003-01-31 8:31 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2003-01-31 15:02 ` Hyman Rosen
2003-01-31 16:12 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2003-01-31 17:11 ` Hyman Rosen
2003-02-03 9:59 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov [this message]
2003-02-03 13:26 ` Hyman Rosen
2003-02-03 16:12 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2003-02-03 17:00 ` Hyman Rosen
2003-02-04 9:54 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2003-02-04 14:50 ` Colin Paul Gloster
2003-02-04 15:56 ` Hyman Rosen
2003-02-05 12:53 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2003-02-05 15:22 ` Hyman Rosen
2003-02-05 7:02 ` Amir Yantimirov
[not found] ` <en04h-1k4.ln1@beastie.ix.netcom.com>
2003-02-04 9:48 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2003-02-04 10:10 ` Colin Paul Gloster
2003-02-04 13:12 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2003-02-04 14:33 ` Colin Paul Gloster
2003-02-04 15:22 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2003-02-04 16:47 ` Hyman Rosen
2003-02-04 15:10 ` Hyman Rosen
2003-02-05 12:53 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2003-02-05 15:35 ` Hyman Rosen
2003-02-04 7:04 ` AG
2003-02-03 12:34 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2003-02-05 4:38 ` AG
2003-02-04 10:08 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2003-01-30 8:09 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2003-01-30 15:01 ` Hyman Rosen
2003-01-30 16:33 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2003-01-30 17:12 ` Stephen Leake
2003-01-31 8:51 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2003-01-31 15:04 ` Hyman Rosen
2003-01-30 18:01 ` Hyman Rosen
2003-01-31 8:38 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2003-01-31 15:11 ` Hyman Rosen
2003-01-31 16:27 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2003-01-31 17:25 ` Hyman Rosen
2003-02-03 9:59 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2003-02-03 13:11 ` Hyman Rosen
2003-02-03 14:40 ` Hyman Rosen
2003-02-04 10:11 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2003-02-04 6:34 ` AG
2003-02-03 12:58 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2003-01-27 16:04 ` Kevin Cline
2003-01-19 3:42 ` Hyman Rosen
2003-01-19 12:34 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2003-01-19 14:13 ` Hyman Rosen
2003-01-20 8:43 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2003-01-23 13:15 ` please, please, please, Wes Groleau
2003-01-16 19:08 ` Anybody in US using ADA ? One silly idea Hyman Rosen
2003-01-17 16:28 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2003-01-17 4:03 ` Richard Riehle
2003-01-17 16:28 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2003-01-21 5:53 ` Richard Riehle
2003-01-21 6:24 ` tmoran
2003-01-16 19:09 ` Larry Kilgallen
2003-01-15 22:48 ` Robert A Duff
2003-01-16 18:20 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2003-01-25 16:05 ` Robert I. Eachus
2003-01-25 20:33 ` Richard Riehle
2003-01-27 13:29 ` Wes Groleau
2003-01-27 16:29 ` Hyman Rosen
2003-01-28 13:24 ` Robert A Duff
2003-01-28 17:16 ` Hyman Rosen
2003-01-28 18:44 ` Robert A Duff
2003-01-28 20:04 ` Hyman Rosen
2003-01-07 13:51 ` Richard Riehle
2003-01-08 3:51 ` Hyman Rosen
2003-01-06 16:33 ` Georg Bauhaus
2003-01-06 16:23 ` Wes Groleau
2003-01-06 4:20 ` Kevin Cline
2003-01-06 14:16 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2003-01-06 16:08 ` Wes Groleau
2003-01-06 17:26 ` James S. Rogers
2003-01-07 13:36 ` Wes Groleau
2003-01-07 18:40 ` David C. Hoos
2003-01-07 21:29 ` James S. Rogers
2003-01-07 3:14 ` Hyman Rosen
2003-01-07 13:40 ` Wes Groleau
2003-01-08 4:30 ` Hyman Rosen
2003-01-04 18:04 ` Ted Dennison
2003-01-04 20:20 ` Hillel Y. Sims
2003-01-05 2:47 ` Ted Dennison
2003-01-05 23:58 ` [OT] Mozilla filtering " chris.danx
2003-01-06 4:12 ` Ted Dennison
2003-01-06 16:54 ` chris.danx
2003-01-06 16:31 ` [off-topic] spam-filters Wes Groleau
2003-01-06 19:23 ` Randy Brukardt
2003-01-07 2:59 ` Ted Dennison
2003-01-07 18:49 ` Randy Brukardt
2003-01-07 20:38 ` tmoran
2003-01-07 21:01 ` Wes Groleau
2003-01-07 1:19 ` Ted Dennison
2003-01-07 13:46 ` Wes Groleau
2003-01-09 16:24 ` Anybody in US using ADA ? One silly idea faust
2003-01-09 15:04 ` Ted Dennison
2003-01-10 14:23 ` faust
2003-01-11 5:44 ` Ted Dennison
2003-01-11 5:48 ` Ted Dennison
2003-01-06 4:39 ` Kevin Cline
2003-01-06 9:49 ` Ted Dennison
[not found] ` <ujn2va.go3.ln@beastie.ix.netcom.com>
2003-01-03 1:44 ` Bill Findlay
2003-01-09 2:21 ` faust
2003-01-03 0:07 ` Robert C. Leif
2003-01-03 2:51 ` Marin David Condic
2003-01-03 18:13 ` Warren W. Gay VE3WWG
2003-01-04 15:30 ` Marin David Condic
2003-01-07 12:58 ` Richard Riehle
2003-01-08 19:46 ` Remarketing the language ( was Re: ....ADA ? One silly idea..) faust
2003-01-08 18:24 ` Warren W. Gay VE3WWG
2003-01-08 18:42 ` Edi Weitz
2003-01-09 16:30 ` faust
2003-01-10 7:00 ` Fraser Wilson
2003-01-10 8:06 ` Geoffrey Summerhayes
2003-01-10 10:17 ` Fraser Wilson
2003-01-02 18:29 ` Anybody in US using ADA ? Mike Silva
2003-01-03 0:41 ` David Emery
2003-01-03 6:44 ` Mike Silva
2003-01-03 10:16 ` John R. Strohm
2003-01-03 20:02 ` Mike Silva
2003-01-03 22:16 ` John R. Strohm
2003-01-04 8:31 ` Mike Silva
2003-01-06 22:24 ` Richard Riehle
2003-01-06 23:45 ` Jerry van Dijk
2003-01-07 18:35 ` Mike Silva
2003-01-07 20:34 ` Jerry Petrey
2003-01-07 21:07 ` Dead Fred the Head Red
2003-01-09 2:14 ` faust
2003-01-09 2:15 ` C++ , ADA and the Joint Strike Fighter ( was Re: Anybody in US using ADA ?) faust
2003-01-08 13:21 ` Ted Dennison
2003-01-08 13:51 ` C++ , ADA and the Joint Strike Fighter ( was Re: Anybody in USusing " Marin David Condic
2003-01-08 21:42 ` Ted Dennison
2003-01-09 16:27 ` faust
2003-01-08 21:44 ` C++ , ADA and the Joint Strike Fighter Vinzent Hoefler
2003-01-10 7:58 ` faust
2003-01-09 14:34 ` Vinzent Hoefler
2003-01-09 14:57 ` C++ , ADA and the Joint Strike Fighter (Off-topic) Larry Kilgallen
2003-01-09 17:10 ` C++ , ADA and the Joint Strike Fighter Pascal Obry
2003-01-10 14:18 ` faust
2003-01-09 19:29 ` C++ , ADA and the Joint Strike Fighter (Off-topic) Larry Kilgallen
2003-01-11 19:31 ` chris.danx
2003-01-12 22:22 ` u.r. faust
2003-01-12 9:07 ` tmoran
2003-01-13 4:20 ` u.r. faust
2003-01-13 13:25 ` Marin David Condic
2003-01-11 22:10 ` Larry Kilgallen
[not found] ` <H01kDjtzy1$7@eisneOrganization: LJK Software <oK$dhQDJBSHL@eisner.encompasserve.org>
2003-01-12 22:23 ` u.r. faust
2003-01-09 12:34 ` C++ , ADA and the Joint Strike Fighter ( was Re: Anybody in USusing ADA ?) Marin David Condic
2002-12-31 22:38 ` Anybody in US using ADA ? Britt Snodgrass
-- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2003-01-03 1:18 Anybody in US using ADA ? One silly idea Alexandre E. Kopilovitch
2003-01-16 11:10 Grein, Christoph
2003-01-16 16:13 ` Stephen Leake
2003-01-16 16:53 ` Victor Porton
2003-01-17 6:08 Grein, Christoph
2003-02-03 10:13 Grein, Christoph
2003-02-05 5:44 ` AG
2003-02-04 16:05 ` Chad R. Meiners
2003-02-04 9:13 Grein, Christoph
2003-02-05 6:50 ` AG
2003-02-04 13:26 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
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