Re: gtkada/glade info needed

Re: gtkada/glade info needed

[Ted Dennison]

Marin David Condic wrote:

> Does anybody know where there might exist some documentation about using
> Glade to build GUIs for use with GtkAda? I'm looking for a sort of
> tutorial that walks you through all the steps of constructing some sort
> of reasonably simple app that shows how to use the various features to
> create a nice looking window. Despite claims to the contrary, the tool
> is *not* intuitively obvious to even the most casual observer.

I used it at work to build a little app for showing our application's
varaible values using vxWorks' WTX (debugger) protocol. It was very slow
going at first. It struck me that Glade would be very tough to figure out
for anyone who isn't fairly familar with how Gtk or Motif GUI building
works. The main trip up would probably be in figuring out what widgets you
have to use as your base (window). Only certian ones are allowed. You can't
just create a GUI with one pushbutton.

It also has some rather annoying crash bugs on Windows (NT at least). But
since Windows isn't its primary port, this is probably to be expected.

> Also, I'm having trouble with getting Glade to generate source code
> because of apparent problems with something called Gate wanting to
> create various directories and getting permission denied. Could be the
> scripts weren't designed to deal with Win2k, but a quick look at the

I had problems with that too. For one thing, I think there was a file that
has to be deleted before you save (after the first time). I kind of liked
this, as it prevented me from accidentally wiping out my old GUI before I
was ready. But I did have to write a script to backup my GUI package bodies
and delete that file. Then another script I wrote restored my GUI package
bodies after gate was run. I'm working from memory here, so I can't be much
more specific for certain. If no one else responds before I go back in on
Monday, I'll take a better look at what I did.

> Is it time to once again observe that one reason more people don't
> develop Windows apps in Ada is because there isn't a complete,
> well-integrated, well-documented set of tools with which to work? C++

Actually, I believe ObjectAda does more or less what you are asking for, it
just isn't free. :-)

As for doing something free, C++ doesn't really have such a system (on
Windows) either. What would such a set of tools include? Should the GUI be
Windows with ActiveX support and all that jazz, or should it be TK, or
should it be Java, or should it be Gtk+? How about 3D libraries? There are 3
popular ones on Windows right now, OpenGL, Direct3D, and GLIDE (do we have
enough GL*DE acronyms yet?). Even Sockets support is in a similar situation.
Any choice you make is not going to satisfy everyone.

> may be a poor excuse for a programming language, but MSVC++ installs
> from a single disk, configures everything it needs to and runs properly
> right out of the box. No net surfing for all the bits and pieces. No
> setting paths, environment variables, system configurations, etc. No
> fussing to get the compiler, editor, GUI builder, debugger, etc., to
> work together. No need to scour around to collect up manuals from a
>

That's because they give you no choices! Your GUI will be Windows (with
ActiveX support and DirectX). Your 3D will be Direct3D. Your sockets will be
WinSock.

> I like the notion of being able to develop a GUI based app in Ada using
> a tool that will let me take the code between Windows and Unix
> unchanged. GtkAda may do that. It may gain more popularity if it works a
> bit more seamlessly.

I'd agree here, particularly with the first sentence. I don't even think
"like" is strong enough. Perhaps GtkAda does need a bit more polish.
Certianly GLADE on Windows needs a bit more polish. But what they have done
so far in such a short time is very impressive.

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gtkada/glade info needed

[Marin David Condic]

Does anybody know where there might exist some documentation about using
Glade to build GUIs for use with GtkAda? I'm looking for a sort of
tutorial that walks you through all the steps of constructing some sort
of reasonably simple app that shows how to use the various features to
create a nice looking window. Despite claims to the contrary, the tool
is *not* intuitively obvious to even the most casual observer.

Also, I'm having trouble with getting Glade to generate source code
because of apparent problems with something called Gate wanting to
create various directories and getting permission denied. Could be the
scripts weren't designed to deal with Win2k, but a quick look at the
directory properties indicates there aren't any obvious privilege
violations. (Its trying to build directories/files under
c:\GtkAda-1.3.8\bin. Why is unclear.)

And how exactly does one go about getting OpenGL and installing it such
that one can compile/link the testgtk application? Why it isn't there I
do not know, but the link fails for lack of a bunch of routines that
appear to have something to do with OpenGL.

Is it time to once again observe that one reason more people don't
develop Windows apps in Ada is because there isn't a complete,
well-integrated, well-documented set of tools with which to work? C++
may be a poor excuse for a programming language, but MSVC++ installs
from a single disk, configures everything it needs to and runs properly
right out of the box. No net surfing for all the bits and pieces. No
setting paths, environment variables, system configurations, etc. No
fussing to get the compiler, editor, GUI builder, debugger, etc., to
work together. No need to scour around to collect up manuals from a
dozen different sources in order to understand how to use all the bits
and pieces. You just fire it up and go. Newbies aren't frustrated with
failing tools and serious developers aren't wasting their time pulling
together all the pieces. Ada would do well to learn from that example.

I like the notion of being able to develop a GUI based app in Ada using
a tool that will let me take the code between Windows and Unix
unchanged. GtkAda may do that. It may gain more popularity if it works a
bit more seamlessly.

MDC
--
======================================================================
Marin David Condic - Quadrus Corporation - http://www.quadruscorp.com/
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    and car keys to teenage boys."

        --   P. J. O'Rourke
======================================================================

Re: gtkada/glade info needed

[Marin David Condic]

Ted Dennison wrote:

> I used it at work to build a little app for showing our application's
> varaible values using vxWorks' WTX (debugger) protocol. It was very slow
> going at first. It struck me that Glade would be very tough to figure out
> for anyone who isn't fairly familar with how Gtk or Motif GUI building
> works. The main trip up would probably be in figuring out what widgets you
> have to use as your base (window). Only certian ones are allowed. You can't
> just create a GUI with one pushbutton.
>

Well after a bunch of bashing around, I kind of figured out how to get a few
simple things into a window so I could try to make some code. It still looked
like fewmets. I couldn't quite figure out how to make buttons that were the same
size or get good control of where things appeared. I understand that this allows
for automatic resizing, but there must be some tricks for how to make a window
that doesn't simply have everything scattered over God's Green Acres. This is
where some version of a "How To" manual would come in really handy.

>
> It also has some rather annoying crash bugs on Windows (NT at least). But
> since Windows isn't its primary port, this is probably to be expected.
>

Didn't succeed in killing Glade under Win2k. Of course I didn't try everything
yet. :-) What I *did* kill was the code generation.

> I had problems with that too. For one thing, I think there was a file that
> has to be deleted before you save (after the first time). I kind of liked
> this, as it prevented me from accidentally wiping out my old GUI before I
> was ready. But I did have to write a script to backup my GUI package bodies
> and delete that file. Then another script I wrote restored my GUI package
> bodies after gate was run. I'm working from memory here, so I can't be much
> more specific for certain. If no one else responds before I go back in on
> Monday, I'll take a better look at what I did.
>

When looking at the CLI window, I was able to see errors that had to do with
trying to create directories that didn't exist. I could probably post the
*specific* error messages, but I just didn't save them the last time around.

> Actually, I believe ObjectAda does more or less what you are asking for, it
> just isn't free. :-)
>

I had ObjectAda a few years ago. It was O.K., but I thought there was a bit of a
derth of documentation. Too much was assumed about what you knew of Windows
programming. Sort of like saying: "Well, first go out and buy MSVC++ and learn
how to use that. Then you'll understand how to use this."

Of course it has probably improved in the last couple of years and perhaps its
time to take another look at it. I don't mind paying as long as I think I can
get what I need and the $$$ stay expressible in three digits. :-) Naturally,
this does limit you to Windows programming (as does VC++) and I rather thought
I'd be able to sell the concept of doing the next project in Ada if I could show
the capacity to port easily to more than just Windows.

>
> As for doing something free, C++ doesn't really have such a system (on
> Windows) either. What would such a set of tools include? Should the GUI be
> Windows with ActiveX support and all that jazz, or should it be TK, or
> should it be Java, or should it be Gtk+? How about 3D libraries? There are 3
> popular ones on Windows right now, OpenGL, Direct3D, and GLIDE (do we have
> enough GL*DE acronyms yet?). Even Sockets support is in a similar situation.
> Any choice you make is not going to satisfy everyone.
>

Please don't mistake me for a C++ advocate. Its just that after working with
MSVC++ I can see that the *toolkit* is done rather well and I had not seen such
a complete and well integrated toolkit for Ada. Its the same sort of thing you
get when looking at kits for doing embedded work on small computers. Lots and
lots of well integrated development tools that use a C compiler and not much to
say for Ada.

As for trying to please everyone, I understand you can't do that. But its almost
as if just picking some set of tools and pulling them together nicely, might be
enough to create a de facto standard. Pick a set of GUI tools you can expand on
and can make work on a variety of platforms. Pick a debugger. Pick whatever you
like. Put it in a bundle that is easy to install, works together smoothly,
doesn't crash and is well documented and I think you'd have something there.

> That's because they give you no choices! Your GUI will be Windows (with
> ActiveX support and DirectX). Your 3D will be Direct3D. Your sockets will be
> WinSock.
>

Freedom of choice is what I've got. Freedom *from* choice is what I want. :-)
You can push choice too far sometimes. For example, assembler on a bare machine
lets you do *anything* that is possible to do with that machine. Your choices
are limitless. The instant you throw an OS on the machine, you have, by
definition, limited your choices. With Windows, ActiveX, DirectX and whatever, I
can pretty much build an app that will work "Good Enough". And as we know "Good
Enough" is not nearly so wonderful a thing as "Perfect". But its "Good Enough!"
:-)

I'd still like to get portability out of the deal since that is one of Ada's
strong suits. With the right tools in place, it would be a *very* good selling
point to show developers how they could build it on Windows and run it on Unix
(or OS/2 or VMS or Lord knows what else!) Its a big project potentially, but I
think its one that would make Ada a force to be contended with.

>
> I'd agree here, particularly with the first sentence. I don't even think
> "like" is strong enough. Perhaps GtkAda does need a bit more polish.
> Certianly GLADE on Windows needs a bit more polish. But what they have done
> so far in such a short time is very impressive.

Oh, I may complain, but I do have to respect the effort that has gone into it.
From what I have seen, it has a lot of potential and could easily expand into
something extremely powerful. I guess what frustrates me is that I am hoping to
push for the next big project to go with Ada, GtkAda, etc., on the grounds of
portability. But for me to do that, I've got to have enough confidence in the
toolset to believe we can get the job done and that getting the rest of the crew
up to speed using it isn't going to be an impossible burden. With a limited
amount of documentation and uncertainties about quality, its hard to make the
case. I was building a toy application here with the hope that I could take it
around and say "See? It runs on Windows and looks pretty good, eh? What do you
say we glom onto a Sun and see if it works just as well there?" I'm just not
there yet. :-(

MDC
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======================================================================
Marin David Condic - Quadrus Corporation - http://www.quadruscorp.com/
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======================================================================

Re: gtkada/glade info needed

[Ted Dennison]

Marin David Condic wrote:

> DuckE wrote:
>
> > I didn't find MSVC++ easy to understand, nor did I find building
> > applications using the Wizards to be intuitive or easy.  Now if you want ot
> > make a case for VB or Delphi, I'll go along with that.
> >
>
> O.K. Your experience with it runs contrary to mine. When I installed it, I
> fired it up, pointed it at a body of C++ code we had around here and told it to
> get started compiling. It did. Maybe the release you got was buggy. It
> certainly doesn't speak well of *any* application if the "demo" stuff doesn't
> work.

Clearly you didn't try it from the command line. By default it doesn't add the
environment variables you need compile from the command line. It takes a serious
documentation spelunking adventure to find out how to get them added.

So you must have done it from the GUI. I *still* haven't figured out how to do that
(but I suppose I haven't tried very hard either).

--
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Re: gtkada/glade info needed

[Marin David Condic]

DuckE wrote:

> Excuse me... but I installed MSVC++ 6.0 and decided to give it a try.  I
> diligently typed in the code for the sample "scribble" application.  Guess
> what.  It didn't run.
>
> I had to download a service pack off the net to get it to work.  I think
> they're up to SP4 now in MSVC++ 6.0.
>
> I didn't find MSVC++ easy to understand, nor did I find building
> applications using the Wizards to be intuitive or easy.  Now if you want ot
> make a case for VB or Delphi, I'll go along with that.
>

O.K. Your experience with it runs contrary to mine. When I installed it, I
fired it up, pointed it at a body of C++ code we had around here and told it to
get started compiling. It did. Maybe the release you got was buggy. It
certainly doesn't speak well of *any* application if the "demo" stuff doesn't
work.

Also, please observe that I did not say that MSVC++ was intuitively obvious to
even the most casual observer. It is not. Nor is Windows programming in
general. However, it *is* well documented and I did not encounter any
statements in the documentation claiming that it *was* easy to intuit your way
through it.

If you like VB or Delphi better - fine. I am not trying to make the case that
MSVC++ is the greatest of all possible development kits. I can certainly
imagine better ones - maybe someone else has done the same. My case is *only*
that it comes as a complete suite of stuff that all works together and all from
a single source. There are some very nice tools out there for Ada. There are
some very good compilers and GUI development suites and all that stuff like
that there. And often the price is a lot more attractive than that of MSVC++.
You'll just have to visit a dozen different web pages to get them all and they
won't all just run nicely with each other from the same root window and you'll
probably have to visit a dozen other web sites to find documentation that
explains what all the stuff is about and how to use it. (Some of this comes
from the fact that many of the tools are offshoots or bindings to other tools.
X is a binding to Y which was built on top of Z and X just refers you to the
documentation for Y which refers you to Z and if you weren't born knowing Z,
you're SOL. Did that make sense? :-)

As a consumer of development tools, I'm merely expressing what I'd like to see
in the way of an Ada development kit. It is the wise and successful capitalist
that tries to give the customer what he wants. :-) I'd be more than happy to
talk to any vendors about what I like in MSVC++ and what I don't like about it.
Send me a marketing survey.

MDC
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======================================================================
Marin David Condic - Quadrus Corporation - http://www.quadruscorp.com/
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    and car keys to teenage boys."

        --   P. J. O'Rourke
======================================================================

Re: gtkada/glade info needed

[Preben Randhol]

On Sat, 30 Sep 2000 17:43:49 -0400, Marin David Condic wrote:
>Does anybody know where there might exist some documentation about using
>Glade to build GUIs for use with GtkAda? I'm looking for a sort of
>tutorial that walks you through all the steps of constructing some sort
>of reasonably simple app that shows how to use the various features to
>create a nice looking window. Despite claims to the contrary, the tool
>is *not* intuitively obvious to even the most casual observer.

First principle is that when you make GUI with GtkAda (GTK+) you should
not do it the way Delphi projects do. That is put buttons etc in fixed
positions. GTK+ uses horisontal and vertical boxes to pack buttons
etc... so that when you scale your application the layout looks good.

I recommend that you look at these links, even though the examples are
in C it is easy to translate into Ada 95 using GtkAda:

GTK+ / Gnome Application Development by Havoc Pennington :

on packing widgets:

   http://developer.gnome.org/doc/GGAD/cha-gtk.html

the whole book can be found here:

   http://developer.gnome.org/doc/GGAD/

GTK+ Tutorial by Tony Gale, Ian Main

on packing widgets:

   http://www.gtk.org/tutorial/gtk_tut-4.html

the whole tutorial

   http://www.gtk.org/tutorial/

And of course the GtkAda documentation.

   http://gtkada.eu.org/gtkada_ug.html
   http://gtkada.eu.org/gtkada_rm_toc.html

>Is it time to once again observe that one reason more people don't
>develop Windows apps in Ada is because there isn't a complete,
>well-integrated, well-documented set of tools with which to work? C++

I dunno, I use Linux as I find that Windows suck.

>may be a poor excuse for a programming language, but MSVC++ installs
>from a single disk, configures everything it needs to and runs properly
>right out of the box. No net surfing for all the bits and pieces. No

And how many $ do you have to pay up for the public version of  GNAT +
GtkAda + Glade compared to MSVC++? :-)

>I like the notion of being able to develop a GUI based app in Ada using
>a tool that will let me take the code between Windows and Unix
>unchanged. GtkAda may do that. It may gain more popularity if it works a
>bit more seamlessly.

The Linux version works nicely at least and I'm very impressed with the
work put in by the GtkAda developers.

-- 
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Re: gtkada/glade info needed

[Marin David Condic]

Ted Dennison wrote:

> Clearly you didn't try it from the command line. By default it doesn't add the
> environment variables you need compile from the command line. It takes a serious
> documentation spelunking adventure to find out how to get them added.

You can run it from the command line??? :-) Kids these days with their GUI interfaces
and fancy-pants install shields and all that. Why when I was a kid, we didn't even have
a command line. All we had were punch cards and paper tape. And we were damned glad whe
had 'em too! :-)

O.K. Like I said - MSVC++ isn't perfect. My experience was very painless. Of course one
of the other guys was here to lean over my shoulder and explain stuff to me, so that
always helps, but I still had very little trouble just getting it to start up and work.
(In-depth usage is a whole other story!) I've had similar experiences with lots of
other software I've installed (and written!) for Windows. Then there are apps that are
difficult to install and get working and they get annoying. Early versions of Gnat for
Windows had you fooling with the registry and other mucking about that I thought was
painful. Of course, now it comes with an install shield and pretty much seems to run
nicely out of the box. Very easy and painless - the ACT guys should be proud of that.

>
> So you must have done it from the GUI. I *still* haven't figured out how to do that
> (but I suppose I haven't tried very hard either).

I guess I really don't want to linger too much on the "painless install" part since
that is only one part of the problem. What I think are its more important advantages
are things like how everything hangs together and you get adequate documentation with
the installation that - even if it may be big and cumbersome - provides a source from
which to find answers. We're all fond of saying "Hey pal! RTFM!!!!" but you can't
"RTFM" if there is no "FM"! :-)

If you use the tool much, there are certain things to like about it. I like how (after
waiting several minutes for it to load everything!) you get a "Class View" of your
project. You see all the classes you have in a tree form and can open them to see the
methods and member variables that go with them. Double click on it and you're right
there in the source. You make changes to the Class View and it shows up in your source.
You make changes to the source and there it is in the Class View. It has an amazingly
nice debugger - which for C++ you need a heck of a lot more than in other languages!
Simple to run your program in debug mode, set breakpoints, etc. Want to see what's in a
variable? Hang the cursor over it in the source you are editing. You can make changes
to the source *while you are running* and automagically its just there. The GUI builder
is accessible from the Resource View and I like how it shows you just the pieces you
need for a given feature and how it builds code for you to hang the features together.
(O.K. its crappy code and you really need to understand the Windows model if you hope
to succeed - but a lot of that is inescapable. They made a a valiant effort to try to
polish up the Windows model, but no matter how much time you spend polishing it, you
are still just polishing a turd. :-)

Now AdaGide and Gnat with GDB built in comes a long way in the right direction. I've
not used GDB much - partly because with Ada I have a *lot* less need for a debugger and
partly because there's no help file for it from the menu. (If it ain't right there, you
tend not to think about it.) The debugger seems to have its own view of the source so
you're not working from the same source view as what you are editing. It would be nice
to point AdaGide at a directory and have it show you all the files in a tree-like
structure where you could, for example, click on a package and see a summary of the
elements within it - click on them and go to the source. And of course there's no GUI
builder integrated with it that you might use to generate code and resources and just
kind of have it all show up right there. (The GUI builder would have to sort of propose
a model for building an app so you knew exactly where to go to hang your app code from
the GUI code. And naturally, once you modify the GUI code, regeneration shouldn't mess
it up.) Also, until you actually get the code to compile, there isn't a lot of help in
navigating around the various source files. Unfortunately, the time you often need that
kind of navigation the most is when you're struggling to find all the problems that are
keeping it from compiling.

Don't get me wrong - I think AdaGide with GDB and Gnat are a very nice toolset in many
respects and they have come a long way. Its just not as seamless and complete as what
you'll find with other Windows development kits. One day, it may get there and I
certainly hope that happens. In the mean time, I guess I'll just continue to be a nudzh
to those who develop toolkits. :-)

MDC
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======================================================================
Marin David Condic - Quadrus Corporation - http://www.quadruscorp.com/
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    and car keys to teenage boys."

        --   P. J. O'Rourke
======================================================================

Re: gtkada/glade info needed

[Marin David Condic]

Preben Randhol wrote:

> First principle is that when you make GUI with GtkAda (GTK+) you should
> not do it the way Delphi projects do. That is put buttons etc in fixed
> positions. GTK+ uses horisontal and vertical boxes to pack buttons
> etc... so that when you scale your application the layout looks good.
>

Kind of figured out that part for myself - eventually. I can learn to work
with whatever model they want to propose, but I'm just not a mindreader. I'm
hoping to find some info on how to drive the Glade thingie around, how to
setp-by-step get the various things into the window & make them look good,
etc. As I said previously, I managed to get some buttons and text boxes and
stuff like that onto the window, but it looks like defication. And I'm sure
I've violated every single intention of the designers in how to build a GUI.
But nobody wrote down: "Here's how you go about it: First you lay down a
window, then you pop one of these thingies on it, then you edit such-and-such
and..." One walk-through example that showed you how to put basic features
onto the screen in the order they belong (the layer thing is confusing to me
because its different than the usual Windows GUI-builder idea of simply
positioning elements on a pasteboard.) would go a long way to making the tool
easier to use. Something just a bit bigger than "Hello World" but not by
much. Demonstration of buttons, menus, text strings, text blocks, popups and
dialogs ought to about do it. But it needs to suggest *how* to get the things
onto the screen in an attractive form as well as simply the mechanics of
getting the things on the screen.

>
> I recommend that you look at these links, even though the examples are
> in C it is easy to translate into Ada 95 using GtkAda:
>

Thanks for the links. I'll look them over. However, my problem isn't so much
GTK as it is the GUI builder and getting the code generation to work.

>
> I dunno, I use Linux as I find that Windows suck.
>

If you're looking for an argument about the relative suckage of Windows,
you're talking to the wrong guy. But of course, a fundamental point of
philosophy would be that just because Windows = Sucks, does not imply that
(not Windows) = Cool. IMHO, any form of Unix also sucks, but for a lot
longer.

> And how many $ do you have to pay up for the public version of  GNAT +
> GtkAda + Glade compared to MSVC++? :-)
>

Hey, I understand the price is right. That certainly is an attraction. But if
you go to a restaurant and the waitress comes by and says "They burnt your
french fries so they gave you more of them and there's no charge" do you
still eat the fries? I like freebies, but if it doesn't work, it doesn't do
me much good. It also discourages usage of Ada in general if a newbie is
confronted with too many problems getting tools to work.

> The Linux version works nicely at least and I'm very impressed with the
> work put in by the GtkAda developers.

I'll agree that they put a lot of work into it and they have some very nice
things there. Maybe its just not stabilized enough on the Windows side.

MDC
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======================================================================
Marin David Condic - Quadrus Corporation - http://www.quadruscorp.com/
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    and car keys to teenage boys."

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======================================================================

Re: gtkada/glade info needed

[Preben Randhol]

On Sun, 01 Oct 2000 12:06:27 -0400, Marin David Condic wrote:
>Thanks for the links. I'll look them over. However, my problem isn't so much
>GTK as it is the GUI builder and getting the code generation to work.

Well read the links and I think you'll understand things more clearly.
Once you understand GTK+, Glade is easy to use.

>But of course, a fundamental point of philosophy would be that just
>because Windows = Sucks, does not imply that (not Windows) = Cool.

No and I haven't said that either. Linux is good on it's own meirts.

>Hey, I understand the price is right. That certainly is an attraction.
>But if you go to a restaurant and the waitress comes by and says "They
>burnt your french fries so they gave you more of them and there's no
>charge" do you still eat the fries? I like freebies, but if it doesn't
>work, it doesn't do me much good. It also discourages usage of Ada in
>general if a newbie is confronted with too many problems getting tools
>to work.

If you want to make the food yourself expect having to do the dishes
afterwards, if you go to a resturant expect to pay for not having to.
:-)

>I'll agree that they put a lot of work into it and they have some very
>nice things there. Maybe its just not stabilized enough on the Windows
>side.

Well as GTK+ isn't a Windows project you should perhaps look on the Unix
side? :-)

-- 
Preben Randhol - Ph.D Student -  http://www.pvv.org/~randhol/     ._.
Debian 2.2 |"Don't think about domination, think about freedom,  / _,\
Potato     | it doesn't dominate." - Richard M. Stallman        | (_./
GNU/Linux  | To learn more visit => http://www.debian.org/       \,

Re: gtkada/glade info needed

[Robert Dewar]

In article <39D65E94.DD8563E@acm.org>,
  Marin David Condic <mcondic.nospam@acm.org> wrote:
> Does anybody know where there might exist some documentation
about using
> Glade to build GUIs for use with GtkAda?

You might want to try out the public mailing list
gtkada@gtkada.eu.org.
for discussions on the use of GtkAda.


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Re: gtkada/glade info needed

[DuckE]

[snip]
> may be a poor excuse for a programming language, but MSVC++ installs
> from a single disk, configures everything it needs to and runs properly
> right out of the box. No net surfing for all the bits and pieces...

Excuse me... but I installed MSVC++ 6.0 and decided to give it a try.  I
diligently typed in the code for the sample "scribble" application.  Guess
what.  It didn't run.

I had to download a service pack off the net to get it to work.  I think
they're up to SP4 now in MSVC++ 6.0.

I didn't find MSVC++ easy to understand, nor did I find building
applications using the Wizards to be intuitive or easy.  Now if you want ot
make a case for VB or Delphi, I'll go along with that.

SteveD

[snip]
>
> MDC
> --
> ======================================================================
> Marin David Condic - Quadrus Corporation - http://www.quadruscorp.com/
> Send Replies To: m c o n d i c @ q u a d r u s c o r p . c o m
> Visit my web site at:  http://www.mcondic.com/
>
>     "Giving money and power to Government is like giving whiskey
>     and car keys to teenage boys."
>
>         --   P. J. O'Rourke
> ======================================================================
>
>

Re: gtkada/glade info needed

[Gautier]

Robert Dewar:

> We have in general found that people can make good progress
> using this technology if they work through things in the logical
> order, and read the documentation carefully. You need of course
> to completely familiarize yourself with Gtk+ first, that's the
> first step, then follow through the GtkAda examples.

Maybe for a GUI building software the approach is not the same
as for a compiler itself. The logical steps may seem more
logical for the people who develop (and already know) it and,
if you have to read a long documentation just to make the whole work
together and finally realize that a basic aspect of the software is
not stable or finished enough for your needs - just a theoretical
hypothesis, not related to Gtk or any other - it could be a bit
frustrating. Imagine also you want to convince a company to
use Ada and that *their* people will succeed to use a
GUI building software, it could be hard to do without a perfectly
working "out of the CD" demo version. Simply - IHMO - because
a non user-friendly, software meant to build user-friendly
software can appear suspicious...

Maybe the current version of ObjectAda has a convenient solution ?

______________________________________________________
Gautier  --  http://members.nbci.com/gdemont/gsoft.htm

Re: gtkada/glade info needed

[Ted Dennison]

In article <slrn8thb66.17p.randhol+abuse@kiuk0156.chembio.ntnu.no>,
  randhol+abuse@pvv.org (Preben Randhol) wrote:
> On Mon, 02 Oct 2000 13:22:18 +0200, Gautier wrote:
> Glade is not produced by ACT and has the version number 0.5.10
> (latest) meaning it hasn't reached 1.0 yet.

A good point.

> cut & paste it into where I want it in my source code. I can of course
> understand that one wants to use the GUI builder. But one way or the
> other you need to know GtkAda and some at least of GTK+ to be able to
> use it to its fullest.

Not using a GUI builder for a toy or hobby project might be an option.
But for a serious non-trivial GUI you should nearly always use a
builder. Its like the difference between using assembler and a high
level language.

That being said, I should mention that I didn't find Glade significanly
worse than the various Motif-based GUI builders I'm used to. With those
you also need to at least know some basics about Motif widgets and how
they can be put together. But I don't know how it compares to the
Windows-based GUI builders, which I think was the comparison being
drawn. I haven't used any of them. Perhaps they are far easier.

Of course this entire discussion is really a Glade issue, not an Ada
one.

--
T.E.D.

http://www.telepath.com/~dennison/Ted/TED.html


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Re: gtkada/glade info needed

[Marin David Condic]

Gautier wrote:

> Maybe for a GUI building software the approach is not the same
> as for a compiler itself. The logical steps may seem more
> logical for the people who develop (and already know) it and,
> if you have to read a long documentation just to make the whole work
> together and finally realize that a basic aspect of the software is
> not stable or finished enough for your needs - just a theoretical
> hypothesis, not related to Gtk or any other - it could be a bit
> frustrating. Imagine also you want to convince a company to
> use Ada and that *their* people will succeed to use a
> GUI building software, it could be hard to do without a perfectly
> working "out of the CD" demo version. Simply - IHMO - because
> a non user-friendly, software meant to build user-friendly
> software can appear suspicious...

That sounds a little more like my point. I can't sell this as a
technology to use for a serious software development effort if I can't
demonstrate that your garden variety developer is going to have a
relatively easy job of learning how to use it. Imagine pitching this (or
any other product) to a Senior Bozo and having to show them a demo of
how you go about using it and training other developers to use it. If it
appears to the Senior Bozo that this is going to consume some
significant part of his budget on ramp-up time, the answer is going to
be "No".

The people who control the money don't like to take risks. If it looks
like a particular technology is uncertain in any way, they will fall
back to the tried and true. Maybe your average hobbyist can play around
with bits and pieces of a given technology and maybe even add value to
it for others. But when Serious Dollars are at stake, this isn't likely
to happen.

MDC
--
======================================================================
Marin David Condic - Quadrus Corporation - http://www.quadruscorp.com/
Send Replies To: m c o n d i c @ q u a d r u s c o r p . c o m
Visit my web site at:  http://www.mcondic.com/

    "Giving money and power to Government is like giving whiskey
    and car keys to teenage boys."

        --   P. J. O'Rourke
======================================================================

Re: gtkada/glade info needed

[Preben Randhol]

On Mon, 02 Oct 2000 13:22:18 +0200, Gautier wrote:
>Maybe for a GUI building software the approach is not the same
>as for a compiler itself. The logical steps may seem more
>logical for the people who develop (and already know) it and,
>if you have to read a long documentation just to make the whole work
>together and finally realize that a basic aspect of the software is
>not stable or finished enough for your needs - just a theoretical
>hypothesis, not related to Gtk or any other - it could be a bit
>frustrating. 

Sound like one has to have Glade to develop a GUI. One do not.
Glade is not produced by ACT and has the version number 0.5.10 (latest)
meaning it hasn't reached 1.0 yet.

But there is no problem coding without using Glade. I do this. That is I
use Glade to design the layout and then I take the code it generates and
cut & paste it into where I want it in my source code. I can of course
understand that one wants to use the GUI builder. But one way or the
other you need to know GtkAda and some at least of GTK+ to be able to
use it to its fullest.

-- 
Preben Randhol - Ph.D Student -  http://www.pvv.org/~randhol/     ._.
Debian 2.2 |"Don't think about domination, think about freedom,  / _,\
Potato     | it doesn't dominate." - Richard M. Stallman        | (_./
GNU/Linux  | To learn more visit => http://www.debian.org/       \,

Re: gtkada/glade info needed

[Preben Randhol]

On Mon, 02 Oct 2000 09:13:30 -0400, Marin David Condic wrote:

>Maybe your average hobbyist can play around with bits and pieces of a
>given technology and maybe even add value to it for others. 

Just because something doesn't _cost_ money, doesn't mean it isn't good!
Just as because something that do _cost_ a lot of money, do not need to
be any good. I have a very good example, but I guess you already know.
I'm not sure IBM is your average hobbyist.

That said, of course people will use something that they don't have to
pay $ 800 out of their own pocket to use on their own time.

-- 
Preben Randhol - Ph.D Student -  http://www.pvv.org/~randhol/     ._.
Debian 2.2 |"Don't think about domination, think about freedom,  / _,\
Potato     | it doesn't dominate." - Richard M. Stallman        | (_./
GNU/Linux  | To learn more visit => http://www.debian.org/       \,

Re: gtkada/glade info needed

[Robert Dewar]

In article <39D76103.1D3E5503@acm.org>,
  Marin David Condic <mcondic.nospam@acm.org> wrote:

> Kind of figured out that part for myself - eventually. I can
> learn to work with whatever model they want to propose, but
> I'm just not a mindreader.

We have in general found that people can make good progress
using this technology if they work through things in the logical
order, and read the documentation carefully. You need of course
to completely familiarize yourself with Gtk+ first, that's the
first step, then follow through the GtkAda examples.

Also, one thing you *certainly* should have got from the
documentation is the proper mailing list on which to discuss
these issues, namely gtkada@gtkada.eu.org. I would suggest
that if you post polite informed technical questions there,
you may well get help (rants and raves comparing the technology
to burnt french fries may be less successful).

If indeed you perceive that some more elementary tutorial
information would be useful beyond what is there in the
documentation now, a constructive thing would be to try
to supply this missing documentation. It's nice to contribute
as well as to receive when it comes to projects like this :-)

Of course making full use of a technology like this is not
a simple matter, and we have found for example that customers
attending our one day training class on GtkAda find it very
useful. We also find that this is definitely an area in which
it is useful to have support from knowledgable folks.

Nevertheless, if you take the effort to work through the
documentation, and use the right mailing list to ask questions,
you should definitely be able to make more progress :-)

Robert Dewar



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Re: gtkada/glade info needed

[Charles Hixson]

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Marin David Condic wrote:

> ...
> O.K. Like I said - MSVC++ isn't perfect. My experience was very painless. Of course one
> of the other guys was here to lean over my shoulder and explain stuff to me, so that
> always helps
> ...
>
>     "Giving money and power to Government is like giving whiskey
>     and car keys to teenage boys."
>
>         --   P. J. O'Rourke
> ======================================================================

It sure does help!  I suspect that starting with version 6 may help also.  I sprang for
version ... 3 I think it was.  I found it appalling.  And virtually unusable.  I really
believed after using that beast that MS is making a strong effort to force everyone into
Visual Basic.  (Since I now do a lot of Access work, I guess they were successful with me,
but I sure don't love them for it!)  I wish I could use Ada at work, but screen painting
and printing reports are so important that Ada would be a bad choice.  But I sure keep
looking for a different one than what I'm currently stuck with!

-- (c) Charles Hixson
--  Addition of advertisements or hyperlinks to products specifically prohibited


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Re: gtkada/glade info needed

[Jerry van Dijk]

> As for reports, not quite sure what kind of reports you
> are talking about, but if financial reports, then the picture
> stuff in Annex G can come in very handy :-)

Or, if you are on windows, you can use GNATCOM to use any of the many
standard Controls that are availble for report generation.

-- 
--  Jerry van Dijk  | email: jdijk@acm.org
--  Team-Ada        | web:   stad.dsl.nl/~jvandyk
--  Paris, France   | Leiden, Holland

Re: gtkada/glade info needed

[Robert Dewar]

In article <39DE2F1C.46DED36F@earthlink.net>,
  Charles Hixson <charleshixsn@earthlink.net> wrote:
> Marin David Condic wrote:
>
> > ...
> > O.K. Like I said - MSVC++ isn't perfect. My experience was
> > very painless. Of course one
> > of the other guys was here to lean over my shoulder and
> >explain stuff to me, so that
> > always helps
> > ...
================================================================
======
>
> It sure does help!  I suspect that starting with version 6 may
> help also. ... I wish I could use Ada at work, but screen
> painting
> and printing reports are so important that Ada would be a bad
> choice.  But I sure keep
> looking for a different one than what I'm currently stuck
> with!

Actually we are finding that people are very successful in
using GtkAda for screen painting (of course to be fair, we
do provide the "leaning over shoulder" support function that
can indeed be very helpful in succeeding with any of these
tools.

As for reports, not quite sure what kind of reports you
are talking about, but if financial reports, then the picture
stuff in Annex G can come in very handy :-)


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Re: gtkada/glade info needed

[Charles Hixson]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1582 bytes --]

Could you please elaborate a little bit on "any of the many ...".  I
don't know of any available report generators.  Since I am stuck on
windows while at work, this is an interesting option. The ones that I
know of are commercial, which, practically speaking, means unavailable
(unless they also work on Linux, then I might purchase a copy for my own
use, and if the license permitted and a version were available, I could
use it also at work).

I suppose that I might generate a link into MSAccess, and use their
report generator.  I've considered this in other contexts.  But that
looks to me as if it would create either much application instability
(depending on finding the correct version at a different site) or great
legal issues (including a copy of the needed dll's).  That's the real
reason that I backed away from doing this in Python.  I think that I'd
prefer to generate html and have the user print it from a browser.  But a
more self-contained approach would be much more acceptable.

Jerry van Dijk wrote:

> > As for reports, not quite sure what kind of reports you
> > are talking about, but if financial reports, then the picture
> > stuff in Annex G can come in very handy :-)
>
> Or, if you are on windows, you can use GNATCOM to use any of the many
> standard Controls that are availble for report generation.
>
> --
> --  Jerry van Dijk  | email: jdijk@acm.org
> --  Team-Ada        | web:   stad.dsl.nl/~jvandyk
> --  Paris, France   | Leiden, Holland

-- (c) Charles Hixson
--  Addition of advertisements or hyperlinks to products specifically
prohibited


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Re: gtkada/glade info needed

[Jerry van Dijk]

Charles Hixson <charleshixsn@earthlink.net> writes:

> Could you please elaborate a little bit on "any of the many ...".  I
> don't know of any available report generators.  Since I am stuck on
> windows while at work, this is an interesting option. The ones that I
> know of are commercial, which, practically speaking, means unavailable

Indeed, I am not aware of any freeware report generators.

> I suppose that I might generate a link into MSAccess, and use their
> report generator.  I've considered this in other contexts.  But that
> looks to me as if it would create either much application instability
> (depending on finding the correct version at a different site) or great
> legal issues (including a copy of the needed dll's).

I've use Access in this context also, and it works fine. Of course, it
requires the user to have or obtain a copy of it. But that should hardly
be a problem in a commercial environment.

-- 
--  Jerry van Dijk  | email: jdijk@acm.org
--  Team-Ada        | web:   stad.dsl.nl/~jvandyk
--  Paris, France   | Leiden, Holland

Re: gtkada/glade info needed

[Ted Dennison]

In article <39E32F6E.8BCE32F0@earthlink.net>,
  Charles Hixson <charleshixsn@earthlink.net> wrote:
> I've looked into that.   I've also looked into co-opting Mozilla.  But

If a web browser on Win32 would be helpful you can also use COM to
control IE.

> The solution that I seem to be being driven towards is a web server.
> I'm sure I could put something up using Apache.  The problem is that

There's also the Ada web server AWS. :-)

> Most folk seem to say that gtk on Win32 systems is unreliable.  Is
> this true for the current version of gtkAda?  I would prefer to learn
> the gtk toolkit because it is crossplatform, but if it's unreliable I
> should probably look elsewhere.

I don't think anyone was saying that. What we were talking about was the
Glade GUI builder being unreliable, and the code generation facilities
perhaps lacking a bit of polish. I have only found 1 genuine bug in the
Win32 GTK itself. That is minor a menu display glitch when using two
monitors (on two different display cards). I doubt you'll be running
into that one. :-)

I will say that I don't like the fact that all the Win32 GTK windows
have that goofy little GTK icon in the upper left corner. If I could
change that somehow it'd be nice. But that's the only complaint I have
at all for Win32 GTK. If you want a complex multiplatform GUI, its
almost certianly the way to go.

--
T.E.D.

http://www.telepath.com/~dennison/Ted/TED.html
Day 5 of Free Europe


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Re: gtkada/glade info needed

[Leonard]

Ted Dennison <dennison@telepath.com> wrote:

<snip>
>I will say that I don't like the fact that all the Win32 GTK windows
>have that goofy little GTK icon in the upper left corner. If I could
>change that somehow it'd be nice.

"Resource Hacker is a freeware utility to view, modify, add, delete and
extract resources in 32bit Windows executables. It incorporates an
internal resource script compiler and decompiler and works on Win95,
Win98, WinNT, and Win2000 operating systems."

http://www.rpi.net.au/~ajohnson/resourcehacker/

I have not tried GTK, or even Ada yet, but you should be able to replace
the GTK icon with a non-goofy one.

Re: gtkada/glade info needed

[Charles Hixson]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2578 bytes --]

I've looked into that.   I've also looked into co-opting Mozilla.  But this
project has less than one person assigned to it.  A part of me.  HTML generation
is reasonable.  gtk is reasonable, but doesn't get me the needed reports.
TeX/LaTeX requires additional software installed at many remote locations, and,
also, I don't already know it.

The solution that I seem to be being driven towards is a web server.  I'm sure I
could put something up using Apache.  The problem is that some of the clients
don't have web access, but the number has been decreasing.  This would be a more
complicated web page than I've ever done before, and the amount of data to be
transferred causes me to prefer a more locally based connection.  Internally, on
our LAN, a web server would be quite a reasonable approach.  I'm less certain
about over the main internet.  Still, these files would be considerably smaller
than just about any MP3 file, but if any of the clients are using dial up
connections they would probably find the delays inherent in the system to be
intolerable.  These are database queries, after all.

But I seem to be veering away from Ada.

Most folk seem to say that gtk on Win32 systems is unreliable.  Is this true for
the current version of gtkAda?  I would prefer to learn the gtk toolkit because
it is crossplatform, but if it's unreliable I should probably look elsewhere.

Also, are there any special trick to getting glade running on Win95?  I haven't
yet been successful (though I admit my efforts have been quite dispersed).

-- (c) Charles Hixson
--  Addition of advertisements or hyperlinks to products specifically prohibited


"Tarjei T. Jensen" wrote:

> Charles Hixson wrote in message <39E1F46C.414A798E@earthlink.net>...
> >Could you please elaborate a little bit on "any of the many ...".  I
> >don't know of any available report generators.  Since I am stuck on
> >windows while at work, this is an interesting option. The ones that I
> >know of are commercial, which, practically speaking, means unavailable
> >(unless they also work on Linux, then I might purchase a copy for my own
> >use, and if the license permitted and a version were available, I could
> >use it also at work).
>
> There is a theoretical chance that either TeX og LaTeX could be coopted into
> becoming the back end of a report generator. That would ofcourse require some
> programming both to generate the (la)tex source file and various support
> routines.
>
> Worthwhile? Don't know. Depends on how badly you need it. The output would
> probably be very nice.
>
> Greetings,

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Re: gtkada/glade info needed

[Tarjei T. Jensen]

Charles Hixson wrote in message <39E1F46C.414A798E@earthlink.net>...
>Could you please elaborate a little bit on "any of the many ...".  I
>don't know of any available report generators.  Since I am stuck on
>windows while at work, this is an interesting option. The ones that I
>know of are commercial, which, practically speaking, means unavailable
>(unless they also work on Linux, then I might purchase a copy for my own
>use, and if the license permitted and a version were available, I could
>use it also at work).


There is a theoretical chance that either TeX og LaTeX could be coopted into
becoming the back end of a report generator. That would ofcourse require some
programming both to generate the (la)tex source file and various support
routines.

Worthwhile? Don't know. Depends on how badly you need it. The output would
probably be very nice.


Greetings,