Re: Is CM important? (was: Use pragma I

Re: Is CM important? (was: Use pragma I

[bu.edu!inmet!bwhite]

On Jul  8, 1991, mattel@auto-trol.com writes in response to Showalter's
bleatings that we should drop calculus, algebra, FORTRAN and Ada from the
cs curriculum.  Dropping FORTRAN and Ada might not be such a bad idea.
Though it is hard to imagine how one might program without a programming
language, the things people learn in school are pretty much language
independent.  Since it is possible to learn to write either good or bad 
programs in any language, it seems that the important reason for studying
programs is to tell which are good or bad, and to know how to choose a
good program (or perhaps a bad one if you are mad at your boss.)

The only way we can choose good programs is by analyzing the programs we
write.  Perhaps the analysis goes on before the program is written, and
perhaps it goes on after the program is written, but in any case we have to
analyze the code for correctness and efficiency.  The tools for this 
analysis are largely known, but are not easy to use.  Read, for example,
chapter 1, vol 1 of Knuth's ACP books to see what efficiency analysis
tools are available, and how they are tricky to apply.  Read Dijkstra's
book "A Discipline of Programming" for correctness analysis tools.
It is not possible know how to use these tools without some formal
training in the underpinnings of there use.  For this you will need
calculus and algebra.  

Specifically:
    o You will need algebra to do any combinatorics, and 
      combinatorics is extensively used in Knuth-style analysis.  Indeed, 
      one recent book on combinatorics stated that such algorithm analysis 
      books as Knuth's books and Purdom and Brown's book are combinatorics 
      books in disguise.  
    o The kind of formula manipulation used to manipulate correctness 
      proofs is algebraic in nature.  In particular, the experience gained
      by studying algebra makes the definitions of model and language
      more accessible.
    o There are many other applications of abstract
      algebra in the corners of computer science, but it is not clear to me
      that all of them are of general use.  People analyze multiprocessor
      connection networks using Cayley groups.  People who do coding and
      communication error recovery use Galois theory extensively.  People
      have used group theory to prune tree searches by examining symmetries.
      The presentation of floating point arithmetic used in Karlsruhe arithmeti
c
      is given abstractly (see Kulisch and Miranker, "Computer Arithmetic
      in Theory and Practice", Academic Press, 1981.)  However, these seem 
      like specialized applications.
    o Most calculus books and courses spend most time with the relatively 
      uninteresting notions of derivatives and integrals.  While these are
      useful in physics and engineering, where things are continuous, they
      are of less value to the kind of discrete systems we use.  However,
      calculus is the only place people see the definitions of limit and
      continuity, which definitions are very important.  Continuity is
      important if you want fixed points.

This has gone on long enough.

					Peace,
					Bill White
					<bwhite@inmet.inmet.com>
P.S.
    What's a trunkle?

Re: Is CM important? (was: Use pragma I

[Orville R. Weyrich]

In article <20600112@inmet> bwhite@inmet.inmet.com writes:
>
>On Jul  8, 1991, mattel@auto-trol.com writes in response to Showalter's
>bleatings that we should drop calculus, algebra, FORTRAN and Ada from the

[lots of stuff deleted]

An excellent case is made for the importance of algebra and combinatorics.

>    o Most calculus books and courses spend most time with the relatively 
>      uninteresting notions of derivatives and integrals.  While these are
>      useful in physics and engineering, where things are continuous, they
>      are of less value to the kind of discrete systems we use.  However,
>      calculus is the only place people see the definitions of limit and
>      continuity, which definitions are very important.  Continuity is
>      important if you want fixed points.

How many quarters does it take to teach the concepts of limit and continuity?
A school I used to teach at required 3 or 4 quarters of calculus for its
CS majors. I argued in vain that one quarter of that calculus would be well
replaced by a quarter of symbolic logic (Philosophy 110).


--------------------------------------           ******************************
Orville R. Weyrich, Jr., Ph.D.                   Certified Systems Professional
Internet: orville%weyrich@uunet.uu.net             Weyrich Computer Consulting
Voice:    (602) 391-0821                         POB 5782, Scottsdale, AZ 85261
Fax:      (602) 391-0023                              (Yes! I'm available)
--------------------------------------           ******************************

Re: Is CM important? (was: Use pragma I

[Jim Showalter]

bwhite@inmet.inmet.com writes:

>On Jul  8, 1991, mattel@auto-trol.com writes in response to Showalter's
>bleatings
 ^^^^^^^^^

[50 lines of dense prose concerning curriculum modifications deleted]

>This has gone on long enough.

I've noticed something about this thread: just about everybody who has
posted to it has ended their post with "Let's stop this thread" or a
similar statement. Yet they don't NOT post to it. It seems to me that
there are a lot of people with a lot of opinions on this subject, all
of whom want everybody ELSE to keep their opinions to themselves. What gives?
-- 
*** LIMITLESS SOFTWARE, Inc: Jim Showalter, jls@netcom.com, (408) 243-0630 ****
*Proven solutions to software problems. Consulting and training on all aspects*
*of software development. Management/process/methodology. Architecture/design/*
*reuse. Quality/productivity. Risk reduction. EFFECTIVE OO usage. Ada/C++.    *

Re: Is CM important? (was: Use pragma I

[agate!bionet!uwm.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!ub!galileo.cc.rochester.ed]

In article <1991Jul17.195416.16684@netcom.COM> jls@netcom.COM (Jim Showalter) w
rites:
>bwhite@inmet.inmet.com writes:
>
>>On Jul  8, 1991, mattel@auto-trol.com writes in response to Showalter's
>>bleatings
> ^^^^^^^^^
>
>[50 lines of dense prose concerning curriculum modifications deleted]
>
>>This has gone on long enough.
>
>I've noticed something about this thread: just about everybody who has
>posted to it has ended their post with "Let's stop this thread" or a
>similar statement. Yet they don't NOT post to it. It seems to me that
>there are a lot of people with a lot of opinions on this subject, all
>of whom want everybody ELSE to keep their opinions to themselves. What gives?
>-- 
All right, all right.  That's enough.  First, I would like to point out that I
did not say anything about Jim's "bleatings"!  I respect Mr. Showalter's
opinions, I just do not agree with them.  Please be a little more careful with
the attributions!

Next, let's throw it open to a more organized debate:

What do you think IS important for a computer scientist to know?  Not what ISN'
T
important .. what should be taught.  (Never mind about how many hours it takes
to graduate or what other courses will be taught.  Students should suffer :) :)
).

Matt.
-- 
==============================================================================
Matt Telles 	                 mattel@auto-trol.COM
                                 {...}ncar!ico!auto-trol!mattel
Auto-trol Technology 12500 N Washington Denver, CO 80241-2404 (303)252-2874

Re: Is CM important? (was: Use pragma I

[George C. Harrison, Norfolk St ate University]

In article <1991Jul18.140333.23818@auto-trol.com>, mattel@auto-trol.com (Matt T
elles) writes:
> Next, let's throw it open to a more organized debate:
> 
> What do you think IS important for a computer scientist to know?  Not what IS
N'T
> important .. what should be taught.  (Never mind about how many hours it take
s
> to graduate or what other courses will be taught....)  

> 
> Matt.
> -- 
> =============================================================================
=
> Matt Telles 	                 mattel@auto-trol.COM
>                                  {...}ncar!ico!auto-trol!mattel
> Auto-trol Technology 12500 N Washington Denver, CO 80241-2404 (303)252-2874


ACM, of course, has a definition here.  I may or may not agree with all the
topics, but a computer scientist (or future computer scientist) should be
taught how to keep up with changing technologies.  A 22 year old senior with a
lot of knowledge is not a guarantee that at age 30 this person will have the
same potential for success.  

There will be new tools, new languages (sound familiar?), etc.  

George...
George C. Harrison, Professor of Computer Science
Norfolk State University, 2401 Corprew Avenue, Norfolk VA 23504
Internet:  g_harrison@vger.nsu.edu    Phone:  804-683-8654