Re: Object Pascal vs Ada -- which is better for a hobbyist?

[Gour <gour@atmarama.net>]

On Wed, 28 Aug 2013 00:57:24 +0200
Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) <yannick_duchene@yahoo.fr> wrote:

> If I may say, don't focus too much on GUI as you know it nowadays
> and since a few decades, as this time may be more and more gone in
> the future. I'm currently working (not full time, but I expect it in
> the future) on an application with which the UI will be entirely in a
> browser

Believe that I've heard such proposal many times, something like
'traditional GUIs are dead, browser is the future...' and I'd be very
happy if could imagine my app working like that.

Otoh, I'm aware the planned application consists of user enetering some
data, then performing different calculations (using 3rd party C lib as
well) and render that data graphically on the screen.

After data is rendered, user should be able to easily change some
parameters to refine rendered data as well as do further calculations
along with some other simulation going in 'real' time.

Maybe XEphem (http://www.clearskyinstitute.com/xephem/) is good-enough
approximation of the desired app.

Do you have any hint how to do it in browser?

> I've discovered two days ago, a CVS/SCM named Fossil, whose UI is made
> the same way, and which works also as a CGI you can install nearly as
> a drop‑in in any web‑server, and provides the exact same UI from a web
> server as it do when you run it from your desktop (an UI which opens
> in a web‑browser). 

I'm aware of Fossil DVCS and use it exclusively for all my private
stuff. :-)

> Designing an UI as creating a document structure, giving a style and  
> adding user gesture handlers, is easier than creating an UI all by  
> programming using a GUI API. 

That is probably true.

> Even in the age of multimedia and images every where, an UI, is still
> mainly text and text layout; icons and misc graphics does not help
> that much (or even make it worse) and can't replace carefully crafted
> text layout (font family, size, weight, colour, style, decoration,
> indent, justification, and so on, gives more expressive capabilities
> to an UI than any icon set or 3D‑look‑like buttons).

I agree, but in my case I do have need for graphical output.

> That's why I'm not afraid of Ada lacking a standard GUI library.

Having strong support for Qt would be good-enough. D native GUI won't
be available soon.

> Anyway, no GUI libraries could gain wide acceptance. The option of an
> Ada GUI comes back here from time to time, and the replies prove
> there is no hope for a GUI library which could please at least 10% of
> people (more likely there would be 10 different API, one for each of
> these 10%).

If Adacore would focus on Qt instead of GTK, I'll be fine 'cause I do
not see bright future for GTK.

> That said, thanks for mentioning D, as I did not suspect it was
> still there. 

It's and, after they moved to Github, many contributors are there.

GDC might become included in GCC-4.9 toolchain and LLVM-based LDC is
progressing nicely as well.

> Will read about it a future day, out of curiosity, as it
> seems to support design by contract and type constraints as Ada do. I
> just surely won't switch to it, as I don't believe any legacy kind of
> language can go a lot more above with safety than Ada already do, 

Before considering ADA/D, I was thinking about FP-stuff like Haskell
(later considered OCaml, F#), so I want type-safety from the language,
not fiddling with memory at too low-level, dangling pointers bugs etc.
but robust tool to help me having fun with my hobby project which is
going to be developed/maintained for extended period of time. It sounds
as good candidate for Ada. :-)

> For the last words: you mentioned FOSS, saying the FOSS world does
> not like Ada. Well, I don't feel the FOSS world enjoy D a lot more,
> as I've never seen the FOSS mention D until today. 

I'm not aware of any open-source projects done in Ada, while there are
e..g. two D compilers developed for D (ldc, gdc)?

> Just would like to say confusing technique and politic is not good.
> Either you make a choice with technical argument or with political
> intention, but not both, as the latter will near to always want to
> shadow the former (I know it from experience, too much). 

I didn't mean FOSS in political sense, but just in pragmatical one...

DMD is also not 100% FOSS and I do not mind, similar with GNAT, but e.g
if one uses Python, Haskell...even FreePascal/Lazarus. it's expected to
be able to attract some contributors and/or get support.

Otoh, it seems to me that Ada open-source community is practically
non-existant which is a bit strange considering that the language itself
is very fine.

> Also keep in mind there is a GPL GNAT, and that if many commercial
> applications choose Ada, this does not prevent to choose it for home
> or freeware or FOSS applications.

Sure, just wonder why no more open-source projects done in Ada and
whether something can be done about it?


Sincerely,
Gour

-- 
He is a perfect yogī who, by comparison to his own self, 
sees the true equality of all beings, in both their 
happiness and their distress, O Arjuna!

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