From: "Dmitry A. Kazakov" <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de>
Subject: Re: S-expression I/O in Ada
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2010 22:27:45 +0200
Date: 2010-08-09T22:27:45+02:00 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <1y1c8zzqmcer5.po56hkesa968.dlg@40tude.net> (raw)
In-Reply-To: wccy6cfraa1.fsf@shell01.TheWorld.com
On Mon, 09 Aug 2010 13:00:38 -0400, Robert A Duff wrote:
> "Dmitry A. Kazakov" <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de> writes:
>
>> On Mon, 09 Aug 2010 09:48:02 -0400, Robert A Duff wrote:
>>
>>> "Dmitry A. Kazakov" <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de> writes:
>>>
>>>> The implementation or the idea? Would you agree that objects with some
>>>> properties of modular integers have place in Ada programs which do not
>>>> interface C?
>>>
>>> No. I do not like implicit "mod". But that's the essence of
>>> modular types.
>>>
>>> If I ran the circus, then this:
>>>
>>> M : constant := 2**64;
>>> type My_Unsigned is range 0..M-1;
>>> pragma Assert(My_Unsigned'Size = 64);
>>>
>>> X : My_Unsigned := ...;
>>> Y : My_Unsigned := (X + 1) mod M;
>>>
>>> would be legal, and would not raise any exceptions, even when
>>> X = M-1. (And I'd want "(X + 1) mod M" to be implemented
>>> as a single "add" instruction on a typical 64-bit machine.)
>>
>> What does "+" above return?
>
> A value of type My_Unsigned. The values of this type are
> the infinite set of all integers -- that's already the
> case in Ada, except that the RM allows (not requires)
> certain calculations to overflow and raise C_E.
OK, but it is not modular, it is natural. And it is just a different case
where modular types should not be used in first place, like size_t.
Equivalent Ada types like Storage_Offset are not modular.
>>...Is "mod M" a required part of the notation or
>> not?
>
> No, not required -- my idea is that if you want to
> perform some operation ("mod" or "+" or "*" or anything),
> you write that explicitly in the code. No change there
> from the way signed integers already work.
Yes, but not for modular types! (:-))
>>>>> Perhaps they _should_ be unordered, but I won't agree or disagree,
>>>>> since I think in an ideal world they should be banished.
>>>>
>>>> I think they could be fixed.
>>>
>>> How? And having fixed them, when would you use them?
>>> That is, when would you prefer them over signed integers?
>>
>> Ring buffer indexing,
>
> I prefer an explicit "mod" there.
This is will be a source of errors like forgetting mod or specifying wrong
modulus. The idea of modular types is to prevent such errors.
>>...flags (by-value sets actually),
>
> I prefer array-of-Boolean over modular. Even better would
> be a proper user-defined abstraction, with notations like "in".
Agree
>>...cryptography,
>
> Explicit "mod".
Disagree.
>> interfacing, communication.
>
> For these, you don't want modular semantics -- you just want
> a data type whose representation matches what you're
> interfacing/communicating with, such as "type Octet is
> range 0..2**8-1;"
The problem is that these things require both array-of-Boolean view and
arithmetic. I agree that when arithmetic is used, then it has to be wide.
E.g. when interpreting sequences of octets as little/big endian numbers, we
never use modular arithmetic. But integer arithmetic is incompatible with
array/set view. I.e. once you added something it is another type integer:
function "+" (Left, Right : Octet) return Universal_Integer;
>> I think that all these usages require different types of modular types with
>> different sets of operations. So I would prefer a language extension which
>> would allow me construction of such types rather than built-in ones, which
>> satisfy no one.
>
> I certainly agree with that. But it sounds like you are
> agreeing with my point -- that modular types should not
> be in the language.
Yes, but what I want will never become Ada, so I prefer that minimum I can
get. (:-))
--
Regards,
Dmitry A. Kazakov
http://www.dmitry-kazakov.de
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2010-08-09 20:27 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 252+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2010-08-01 12:17 S-expression I/O in Ada Natacha Kerensikova
2010-08-01 12:53 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2010-08-01 17:35 ` Natacha Kerensikova
2010-08-01 18:49 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2010-08-01 20:06 ` Natacha Kerensikova
2010-08-01 21:13 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2010-08-02 7:17 ` Georg Bauhaus
2010-08-02 7:58 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2010-08-07 7:23 ` Natacha Kerensikova
2010-08-07 8:39 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2010-08-07 12:56 ` Natacha Kerensikova
2010-08-07 14:23 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2010-08-08 12:23 ` Natacha Kerensikova
2010-08-08 13:01 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2010-08-08 13:49 ` Natacha Kerensikova
2010-08-08 15:15 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2010-08-09 9:55 ` Natacha Kerensikova
2010-08-09 10:56 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2010-08-10 8:56 ` Natacha Kerensikova
2010-08-10 10:17 ` Georg Bauhaus
2010-08-10 10:36 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2010-08-10 12:06 ` Natacha Kerensikova
2010-08-10 15:46 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2010-08-10 21:22 ` Simon Wright
2010-08-11 7:37 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2010-08-11 17:32 ` Simon Wright
2010-08-11 17:53 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2010-08-11 9:43 ` Natacha Kerensikova
2010-08-11 10:37 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2010-08-11 11:38 ` Natacha Kerensikova
2010-08-11 12:58 ` Robert A Duff
2010-08-11 15:30 ` Natacha Kerensikova
2010-08-11 23:39 ` Randy Brukardt
2010-08-12 1:31 ` Robert A Duff
2010-08-12 8:53 ` Natacha Porté
2010-08-12 9:22 ` Georg Bauhaus
2010-08-13 9:43 ` Natacha Kerensikova
2010-08-10 21:56 ` Randy Brukardt
2010-08-09 15:40 ` Simon Wright
2010-08-09 16:35 ` Robert A Duff
2010-08-10 0:51 ` Randy Brukardt
2010-08-10 1:00 ` Jeffrey Carter
2010-08-10 21:36 ` Randy Brukardt
2010-08-10 22:24 ` Jeffrey Carter
2010-08-10 12:50 ` Robert A Duff
2010-08-10 22:06 ` Randy Brukardt
2010-08-09 18:37 ` Natacha Kerensikova
2010-08-09 19:10 ` Robert A Duff
2010-08-08 14:08 ` Duke Normandin
2010-08-08 15:34 ` Robert A Duff
2010-08-08 18:24 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2010-08-08 20:03 ` Robert A Duff
2010-08-08 20:39 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2010-08-08 21:08 ` Robert A Duff
2010-08-09 6:50 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2010-08-09 13:48 ` Robert A Duff
2010-08-09 14:38 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2010-08-09 15:14 ` Georg Bauhaus
2010-08-09 16:11 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2010-08-09 16:46 ` Georg Bauhaus
2010-08-09 17:05 ` Robert A Duff
2010-08-09 18:29 ` Georg Bauhaus
2010-08-09 19:18 ` Robert A Duff
2010-08-10 8:21 ` Georg Bauhaus
2010-08-09 20:40 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2010-08-09 22:21 ` Georg Bauhaus
2010-08-10 7:07 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2010-08-09 16:47 ` Robert A Duff
2010-08-09 19:59 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2010-08-09 21:34 ` Robert A Duff
2010-08-09 22:29 ` Jeffrey Carter
2010-08-10 7:48 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2010-08-09 21:54 ` _FrnchFrgg_
2010-08-09 22:32 ` Georg Bauhaus
2010-08-10 7:16 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2010-08-10 11:06 ` _FrnchFrgg_
2010-08-10 11:19 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2010-08-10 23:04 ` _FrnchFrgg_
2010-08-11 14:10 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2010-08-11 17:51 ` Structural unification (pattern matching) in Ada [was: Re: S-expression I/O in Ada] _FrnchFrgg_
2010-08-11 18:06 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2010-08-11 19:43 ` Robert A Duff
2010-08-11 20:26 ` (see below)
2010-08-11 21:21 ` Structural unification (pattern matching) in Ada Simon Wright
2010-08-12 12:43 ` Structural unification (pattern matching) in Ada [was: Re: S-expression I/O in Ada] _FrnchFrgg_
2010-08-10 1:06 ` S-expression I/O in Ada Randy Brukardt
2010-08-09 16:50 ` Robert A Duff
2010-08-09 18:32 ` Natacha Kerensikova
2010-08-09 19:06 ` Jeffrey Carter
2010-08-09 19:24 ` Robert A Duff
2010-08-09 19:35 ` (see below)
2010-08-09 17:00 ` Robert A Duff
2010-08-09 20:27 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov [this message]
2010-08-09 21:30 ` Robert A Duff
2010-08-10 1:17 ` Randy Brukardt
2010-08-10 6:48 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2010-08-10 21:42 ` Randy Brukardt
2010-08-11 8:02 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2010-08-11 23:18 ` Randy Brukardt
2010-08-12 6:20 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2010-08-12 20:56 ` Randy Brukardt
2010-08-13 6:56 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2010-08-14 0:52 ` Randy Brukardt
2010-08-09 18:55 ` Jeffrey Carter
2010-08-09 18:20 ` Natacha Kerensikova
2010-08-09 19:19 ` Robert A Duff
2010-08-07 15:38 ` Jeffrey Carter
2010-08-07 17:01 ` Natacha Kerensikova
2010-08-08 6:52 ` Jeffrey Carter
2010-08-08 13:11 ` Natacha Kerensikova
2010-08-08 15:24 ` Robert A Duff
2010-08-09 18:00 ` Natacha Kerensikova
2010-08-09 18:09 ` Robert A Duff
2010-08-08 20:34 ` Jeffrey Carter
2010-08-09 18:10 ` Natacha Kerensikova
2010-08-08 10:26 ` Simon Wright
2010-08-08 11:44 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2010-08-08 11:48 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2010-08-08 14:05 ` Natacha Kerensikova
2010-08-08 20:11 ` Jeffrey Carter
2010-08-14 1:02 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)
2010-08-14 9:53 ` Georg Bauhaus
2010-08-14 11:32 ` Natacha Kerensikova
2010-08-01 22:03 ` Simon Wright
2010-08-02 17:08 ` Pascal Obry
2010-08-02 19:08 ` Simon Wright
2010-08-01 16:01 ` Ludovic Brenta
2010-08-09 18:49 ` Ludovic Brenta
2010-08-09 19:59 ` Natacha Kerensikova
2010-08-10 0:11 ` Ludovic Brenta
2010-08-10 0:57 ` Jeffrey Carter
2010-08-10 6:47 ` Natacha Kerensikova
2010-08-10 18:13 ` Jeffrey Carter
2010-08-12 9:26 ` Natacha Kerensikova
2010-08-12 10:55 ` Ludovic Brenta
2010-08-12 12:16 ` Natacha Kerensikova
2010-08-12 12:46 ` Ludovic Brenta
2010-08-12 13:23 ` Natacha Kerensikova
2010-08-12 16:19 ` Ludovic Brenta
2010-08-12 17:17 ` Natacha Kerensikova
2010-08-12 18:51 ` Jeffrey Carter
2010-08-13 9:32 ` Natacha Kerensikova
2010-08-13 15:52 ` Ludovic Brenta
2010-08-13 22:53 ` Jeffrey R. Carter
2010-08-14 11:10 ` Natacha Kerensikova
2010-08-10 15:48 ` Ludovic Brenta
2010-08-10 15:59 ` Georg Bauhaus
2010-08-12 7:53 ` Ludovic Brenta
2010-08-12 18:55 ` Jeffrey Carter
2010-08-12 19:59 ` Ludovic Brenta
2010-08-12 20:23 ` Natacha Kerensikova
2010-08-12 20:45 ` Ludovic Brenta
2010-08-13 8:24 ` Natacha Kerensikova
2010-08-13 9:08 ` Ludovic Brenta
2010-08-14 10:27 ` Natacha Kerensikova
2010-08-14 11:11 ` Ludovic Brenta
2010-08-14 12:17 ` Natasha Kerensikova
2010-08-14 13:13 ` Ludovic Brenta
2010-08-14 13:33 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)
2010-08-12 22:25 ` Jeffrey R. Carter
2010-08-13 9:10 ` Natacha Kerensikova
2010-08-13 9:51 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2010-08-14 10:36 ` Natacha Kerensikova
2010-08-14 10:57 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2010-08-13 19:23 ` Jeffrey Carter
2010-08-13 19:42 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2010-08-13 20:44 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)
2010-08-14 0:57 ` Randy Brukardt
2010-08-14 10:47 ` Natacha Kerensikova
2010-08-13 19:36 ` Simon Wright
2010-08-12 20:11 ` Natacha Kerensikova
2010-08-12 20:22 ` Ludovic Brenta
2010-08-01 18:25 ` Jeffrey Carter
2010-08-01 19:43 ` Natacha Kerensikova
2010-08-01 19:53 ` Ludovic Brenta
2010-08-01 20:00 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2010-08-01 20:03 ` Jeffrey Carter
2010-08-01 20:34 ` Georg Bauhaus
2010-08-01 20:44 ` Georg Bauhaus
2010-08-01 21:01 ` anon
2010-08-12 23:26 ` Shark8
2010-08-13 2:31 ` Shark8
2010-08-13 8:56 ` Natacha Kerensikova
2010-08-13 10:30 ` Georg Bauhaus
2010-08-13 15:58 ` Shark8
2010-08-13 21:48 ` Shark8
2010-08-14 11:02 ` Natacha Kerensikova
2010-08-17 17:01 ` Natasha Kerensikova
2010-08-17 19:00 ` Jeffrey Carter
2010-08-18 10:49 ` Natasha Kerensikova
2010-08-18 11:14 ` Ludovic Brenta
2010-08-18 11:59 ` Natasha Kerensikova
2010-08-18 12:31 ` Ludovic Brenta
2010-08-18 13:16 ` J-P. Rosen
2010-08-18 13:55 ` Natasha Kerensikova
2010-08-18 14:40 ` J-P. Rosen
2010-08-20 20:50 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)
2010-08-18 15:07 ` Ludovic Brenta
2010-08-19 7:42 ` Natasha Kerensikova
2010-08-18 12:51 ` Georg Bauhaus
2010-08-18 13:24 ` Natasha Kerensikova
2010-08-18 14:40 ` Georg Bauhaus
2010-08-18 23:50 ` Randy Brukardt
2010-08-18 11:22 ` Georg Bauhaus
2010-08-18 12:02 ` Natasha Kerensikova
2010-08-20 21:04 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)
2010-08-22 10:21 ` Natasha Kerensikova
2010-08-22 10:28 ` Simon Wright
2010-08-22 17:13 ` Jeffrey Carter
2010-08-22 14:06 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2010-08-21 19:36 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)
2010-08-18 18:08 ` Jeffrey Carter
2010-08-19 8:09 ` Natasha Kerensikova
2010-08-19 10:16 ` Natasha Kerensikova
2010-08-19 10:42 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2010-08-22 10:24 ` Natasha Kerensikova
2010-08-22 14:10 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2010-08-19 18:07 ` Jeffrey Carter
2010-08-22 10:43 ` Natasha Kerensikova
2010-08-22 17:17 ` Jeffrey Carter
2010-08-19 17:59 ` Jeffrey Carter
2010-08-22 10:45 ` Natasha Kerensikova
2010-08-22 17:20 ` Jeffrey Carter
2010-08-24 11:41 ` Natasha Kerensikova
2010-08-25 1:56 ` Jeffrey Carter
2010-08-25 12:18 ` Natasha Kerensikova
2010-08-25 14:07 ` Jeffrey Carter
2010-08-25 8:06 ` Georg Bauhaus
2010-08-25 13:27 ` Natasha Kerensikova
2010-08-25 18:55 ` Simon Wright
2010-08-25 19:19 ` Georg Bauhaus
2010-08-25 19:23 ` Georg Bauhaus
2010-08-25 22:38 ` Simon Wright
2010-08-25 23:55 ` Georg Bauhaus
2010-08-27 13:19 ` Natasha Kerensikova
2010-08-27 14:57 ` Georg Bauhaus
2010-08-29 10:45 ` Natasha Kerensikova
2010-08-29 13:10 ` Simon Wright
2010-08-29 14:21 ` Natasha Kerensikova
2010-08-29 14:30 ` Niklas Holsti
2010-08-29 13:23 ` Robert A Duff
2010-08-29 13:57 ` Jeffrey Carter
2010-08-29 14:18 ` Britt Snodgrass
2010-08-29 14:29 ` Natasha Kerensikova
2010-08-29 15:12 ` Robert A Duff
2010-09-03 21:52 ` Randy Brukardt
2010-08-29 13:56 ` Jeffrey Carter
2010-08-29 14:34 ` Natasha Kerensikova
2010-08-29 14:55 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2010-08-29 15:25 ` Robert A Duff
2010-08-29 18:50 ` Georg Bauhaus
2010-08-29 21:43 ` Simon Wright
replies disabled
This is a public inbox, see mirroring instructions
for how to clone and mirror all data and code used for this inbox