New Language Design: (Cray, Sun prep radical software models for petaflops systems)

New Language Design: (Cray, Sun prep radical software models for petaflops systems)

[Warren W. Gay VE3WWG]

Full article at

   http://www.eet.com/story/OEG20031119S0013

<quote>
Getting high-end computer users to rally around a
new language will be a tough job given past
failures with languages such as Ada, HPF and
Prolog, said Zima. Therefore, he said, the
Cray team will also show ways of extending
Fortran and C++ to deliver the same
functionality the new language could offer.
</quote>

I find it interesting that they classified "Ada"
as a failure, and are looking at ways to extend
"Fortran" (of all things) and C++.

Naturally, Sun sees every problem as a
potential Java application:

<quote>
"We need to come up with a software layer
like a Java bytecode or a PDF format and
standardize it," said John Gustafson, a
researcher at Sun Labs.
</quote>

-- 
Warren W. Gay VE3WWG
http://home.cogeco.ca/~ve3wwg
[Remove nospam from the email address:
the worms made me do it!]

Re: New Language Design: (Cray, Sun prep radical software models for petaflops systems)

[Ludovic Brenta]

"Warren W. Gay VE3WWG" <ve3wwg@cogeco.ca> writes:

> Full article at
> 
>    http://www.eet.com/story/OEG20031119S0013

<quote>
Hans Zima, principal scientist at the Jet Propulsion
Laboratory (Pasadena, Calif.), said he started working with two top
Cray engineers in July to define a high-level programming language
</quote>

<quote>
Zima said the new language will help software developers exploit both
parallel programming techniques and the locality of data in a large
clustered system.
</quote>

Ada would be a perfect fit.  Ada already has tasking built-in for
intra-node communications, and it has a Distributed Systems Annex for
inter-node communications.  I think that creating an optimised Ada
run-time environment for massively parallel supercomputers is both
feasible and highly desirable.

Furthermore, I think Cray's input into the Ada revision process would
be extremely valuable; perhaps some extensions to the standard would
help get the most out of NUMA architectures.

Is DARPA listening? They're paying for all this, after all.  Now is
the time to reap the benefits of all the US taxpayer money that went
into Ada in the 1970's and 1980's.

GNAT on Crays anyone?

-- 
Ludovic Brenta.

Re: New Language Design: (Cray, Sun prep radical software models for petaflops systems)

[Preben Randhol]

On 2003-11-24, Warren W. Gay VE3WWG <ve3wwg@cogeco.ca> wrote:
> I find it interesting that they classified "Ada"
> as a failure, and are looking at ways to extend
> "Fortran" (of all things) and C++.

Isn't there a special fortran for parallel computing?

As to the comment of the failure of Ada, Prolog and HDF, they ment
markedwise. 

> Naturally, Sun sees every problem as a
> potential Java application:

Even bankruptcy?

><quote>
> "We need to come up with a software layer
> like a Java bytecode or a PDF format and
> standardize it," said John Gustafson, a
> researcher at Sun Labs.
></quote>

to get more money...

-- 
"Saving keystrokes is the job of the text editor, not the programming
 language."

Re: New Language Design: (Cray, Sun prep radical software models for petaflops systems)

[Marin David Condic]

Depending on what one wants to use as a measure of "Success" - one might 
judge Ada to be a failure. Ada was supposed to be designed for embedded 
software development and was supposed to be used for mission critical 
DoD applications. By the first goal, Ada is a miserable failure when 
"other" ranks higher than "Ada" in just about every survey of embedded 
developers when asked "What language do you use?" As for the "Mission 
Critical DoD" apps? The developers had to be drug into Ada kicking and 
screaming and as soon as The Mandate was lifted they began to abandon it 
in droves. So by those measures, Ada is a failure.

OTOH, Ada has evolved into a very powerful OO programming language, has 
several good quality compilers out there and is getting used in a number 
of domains that it wasn't originally targeted for. It has a small, but 
dedicated following and it is finding new developers every day. It is 
successful in the sense that it has users and tools and has the 
*potential* to gain more widespread use. I think it needs to do more to 
secure a larger audience or that small, yet dedicated, following is 
likely to dwindle. Life expectancy for a language depends to a large 
extent on a nebulous thing called "Industry Support" - Ada has just 
enough to keep it alive - for now - but long term, it needs to get more 
if it wants to stay alive.

MDC


Warren W. Gay VE3WWG wrote:
> 
> I find it interesting that they classified "Ada"
> as a failure, and are looking at ways to extend
> "Fortran" (of all things) and C++.


-- 
======================================================================
Marin David Condic
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Send Replies To: m   o   d   c @ a   m   o   g
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======================================================================

Re: New Language Design: (Cray, Sun prep radical software models for petaflops systems)

[Warren W. Gay VE3WWG]

"Preben Randhol" <randhol+valid_for_reply_from_news@pvv.org> wrote in message
news:slrnbs6dsn.4s7.randhol+valid_for_reply_from_news@kiuk0152.chembio.ntnu.no...
> On 2003-11-24, Warren W. Gay VE3WWG <ve3wwg@cogeco.ca> wrote:
> > I find it interesting that they classified "Ada"
> > as a failure, and are looking at ways to extend
> > "Fortran" (of all things) and C++.
>
> Isn't there a special fortran for parallel computing?

I think newer revisions of Fortran included some parallel computing
support. But what I remember seeing of the revised language is that
it has had a lot of bags added on ;-)
-- 
Warren W. Gay
http://home.cogeco.ca/~ve3wwg

Re: New Language Design: (Cray, Sun prep radical software models for petaflops systems)

[Dan Nagle]

Hello,

On Tue, 25 Nov 2003 09:15:54 -0500, "Warren W. Gay VE3WWG"
<ve3wwg_nospam@cogeco.ca> wrote:

>"Preben Randhol" <randhol+valid_for_reply_from_news@pvv.org> wrote in message
>news:slrnbs6dsn.4s7.randhol+valid_for_reply_from_news@kiuk0152.chembio.ntnu.no...
>> On 2003-11-24, Warren W. Gay VE3WWG <ve3wwg@cogeco.ca> wrote:
>> > I find it interesting that they classified "Ada"
>> > as a failure, and are looking at ways to extend
>> > "Fortran" (of all things) and C++.
>>
>> Isn't there a special fortran for parallel computing?

Standard Fortran allows parallelism, but the standard
goes out of its way _not_ to tell the compiler how to generate code.

>I think newer revisions of Fortran included some parallel computing
>support. But what I remember seeing of the revised language is that
>it has had a lot of bags added on ;-)

Fortran 2003 is in its comments on the Final Committee Draft stage.
You may download a PDF of the FCD from
http://www.j3-fortran.org (with Javascript enabled), and click
to download several megabytes :-( of PDF.

Informally, comments may be posted to comp.lang.fortran,
where several J3 members post, or may be formally sent
to INCITS for recording, official response et al.

I'll find and post here the official announcement, if there's
interest.

(Fortran 2003 has "Interoperability with C", which the subgroup
claims includes interoperability with Ada, if the Ada side is
also interoperating with C.  So it's C as universal assembler.)

-- 
Cheers!

Dan Nagle
Purple Sage Computing Solutions, Inc.

Re: New Language Design: (Cray, Sun prep radical software models for petaflops systems)

[Peter Hermann]

Dan Nagle <dnagle@erols.com> wrote:
> http://www.j3-fortran.org (with Javascript enabled), and click
                             ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
what a twisted world

> to download several megabytes :-( of PDF.

cramming down the throat of those being freezed in the 70's

-- 
--Peter Hermann(49)0711-685-3611 fax3758 ica2ph@csv.ica.uni-stuttgart.de
--Pfaffenwaldring 27 Raum 114, D-70569 Stuttgart Uni Computeranwendungen
--http://www.csv.ica.uni-stuttgart.de/homes/ph/
--Team Ada: "C'mon people let the world begin" (Paul McCartney)

Re: New Language Design: (Cray, Sun prep radical software models for petaflops systems)

[Florian Weimer]

"Warren W. Gay VE3WWG" <ve3wwg@cogeco.ca> writes:

> I find it interesting that they classified "Ada"
> as a failure, and are looking at ways to extend
> "Fortran" (of all things) and C++.

How many users of supercomputers write their programs in Ada?  How
many vendors sell Ada implementations for vector processors?

Re: New Language Design: (Cray, Sun prep radical software models for petaflops systems)

[Georg Bauhaus]

Dan Nagle <dnagle@erols.com> wrote:
: (Fortran 2003 has "Interoperability with C", which the subgroup
: claims includes interoperability with Ada, if the Ada side is
: also interoperating with C.  So it's C as universal assembler.)

Does the interoperability include more features than are currently
covered by Ada's Interfaces.Fortran?


--  Georg

Re: New Language Design: (Cray, Sun prep radical software models for petaflops systems)

[Dan Nagle]

Hello,

On Wed, 26 Nov 2003 15:25:17 +0000 (UTC), Georg Bauhaus
<sb463ba@l1-hrz.uni-duisburg.de> wrote:

>Dan Nagle <dnagle@erols.com> wrote:
>: (Fortran 2003 has "Interoperability with C", which the subgroup
>: claims includes interoperability with Ada, if the Ada side is
>: also interoperating with C.  So it's C as universal assembler.)
>
>Does the interoperability include more features than are currently
>covered by Ada's Interfaces.Fortran?

IIRC (I'd have to investigate to fully recall Interfaces.Fortran),
the Ada interoperability is largely, at least, Fortran 77.

Fortran 2003 Interoperability allows passing Fortran derived types,
uses the Fortran kind system to select the interoperating types,
allows passing and converting pointers (data and procedure).  Et al.
It's intended to be a full-blown feature.

The Interoperability subgroup of J3 has assured me that
Interoperating with Ada (etc.) is possible, if the interoperating
language can interoperate with C.  Any comments from Ada
programmers regarding a perceived difficulty would be welcome,
but the Fortran standards approval process is moving quickly!

>
>--  Georg

BTW, if the PDF doesn't suit, you may root around the site a bit
and download the PS, text, or the LaTeX source itself.  PDF is
the "usual" format, it's the one the bureaucrats at ISO formally
read and publish.

http://www.j3-fortran.org

-- 
Cheers!

Dan Nagle
Purple Sage Computing Solutions, Inc.

Re: New Language Design: (Cray, Sun prep radical software models for petaflops systems)

[Dan Nagle]

Hello,

On 26 Nov 2003 15:06:21 +0100, Florian Weimer <fw@deneb.enyo.de>
wrote:

>"Warren W. Gay VE3WWG" <ve3wwg@cogeco.ca> writes:
>
>> I find it interesting that they classified "Ada"
>> as a failure, and are looking at ways to extend
>> "Fortran" (of all things) and C++.
>
>How many users of supercomputers write their programs in Ada?  How
>many vendors sell Ada implementations for vector processors?

Well, Cray used to have an Ada (83, IIRC).

They also had a Lisp (Franz).

The idea was that the Lisp portion of a program would manage
the missile simulation, the Ada portion would direct the missile,
and the Fortran portion would report stresses, airflow etc.

The interesting part was that Lisp could change, e.g., the definition
of square root, in the middle of execution.  But that had better
not change the Fortran & Ada idea of arctangent!  It also probably
added some, ah, features, to the linker.  ;-)

It was a great idea, it just didn't work.  :-(

-- 
Cheers!

Dan Nagle
Purple Sage Computing Solutions, Inc.