number_base

number_base

[Peter Hermann]

because of an immense practical value in data processing
I would like to have an enlargement of the number_base i.e.
I would like to see this AC

http://www.ada-auth.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/AIs/AC-00070.TXT?rev=1.1
http://www.ada-auth.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/AIs/AC-SUMMARY.TXT?rev=1.27

transformed into an AI

http://www.ada-auth.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/AIs/AI-SUMMARY.TXT?rev=1.132

(the revision numbers above have been drawn 2003-10-30)

is there somebody out there to actively support this request?
(priority low, difficulty easy)

AC: judged of little interest:
    They probably will not be considered by the ARG.
AI: Ada Issue

-- 
--Peter Hermann(49)0711-685-3611 fax3758 ica2ph@csv.ica.uni-stuttgart.de
--Pfaffenwaldring 27 Raum 114, D-70569 Stuttgart Uni Computeranwendungen
--http://www.csv.ica.uni-stuttgart.de/homes/ph/
--Team Ada: "C'mon people let the world begin" (Paul McCartney)

RE: number_base

[amado.alves]

This sounds logical, useful and very easy to implement. Theoretically it could break legacy code relying on Number_Base'Last being 16, but I doubt there is any such code.

Re: number_base

[Frank J. Lhota]

Has anyone in this NG written an Ada program that used a number base other
than 2, 8, 10, or 16? These days, it would be hard to find an example that
uses base 8. Looking at current usage, it is hard to make the case for more
number bases.

Re: number_base

[Randy Brukardt]

"amado.alves" <amado.alves@netcabo.pt> wrote in message
news:mailman.244.1067530630.25614.comp.lang.ada@ada-france.org...
>(Re: Changing Number_Base'Last to 36)
>This sounds logical, useful and very easy to implement. Theoretically it
could break legacy
>code relying on Number_Base'Last being 16, but I doubt there is any such
code.

The main objection raised was potential confusion between 1 and l, and 0 and
O in numeric literals.

My personal feeling is that it isn't worth the effort (and there is
certainly non-zero effort required). Janus/Ada originally supported numeric
literals to base 36; at some point we took it out in order to pass
validation. We never got any complaints about it, so I have to conclude
there wasn't much (if any) use of the feature.

In any event, to get an AC changed to an AI, you need to find two ARG
members to request it. Support from the general public isn't particularly
relevant (I suppose a huge groundswell of opinion might sway some ARG
members priorities, but otherwise you need to talk ARG members into it).

                Randy Brukardt
                ARG Editor

Re: number_base

[Marius Amado Alves]

On Thu, 2003-10-30 at 23:27, Randy Brukardt wrote:
> The main objection raised was potential confusion between 1 and l, and 0 and
> O in numeric literals.

I know but this the pros beat the cons as indicated in the discussion in
the AC. (And anyway a good editor should make the differences clear. My
mailer's editor does. What is the job of the editor, you know...)

> My personal feeling is that it isn't worth the effort (and there is
> certainly non-zero effort required).

I would suppose that the device in place for base 16 could be very
easily extended to 36. When I write these things I draw on ASCII where
all letters are in order.

Re: number_base

[Peter Hermann]

Frank J. Lhota <NOSPAM.lhota.adarose@verizon.net> wrote:
> Has anyone in this NG written an Ada program that used a number base other
> than 2, 8, 10, or 16? These days, it would be hard to find an example that
> uses base 8. Looking at current usage, it is hard to make the case for more
> number bases.

I repeat: it should be a tool for encoding/decoding rather than
the very aspect of number base.
An enlargement would make quite some own codes superfluous.

-- 
--Peter Hermann(49)0711-685-3611 fax3758 ica2ph@csv.ica.uni-stuttgart.de
--Pfaffenwaldring 27 Raum 114, D-70569 Stuttgart Uni Computeranwendungen
--http://www.csv.ica.uni-stuttgart.de/homes/ph/
--Team Ada: "C'mon people let the world begin" (Paul McCartney)

Re: number_base

[Martin Dowie]

"Frank J. Lhota" <NOSPAM.lhota.adarose@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:Gndob.28781$294.490@nwrdny03.gnilink.net...
> Has anyone in this NG written an Ada program that used a number base other
> than 2, 8, 10, or 16? These days, it would be hard to find an example that
> uses base 8. Looking at current usage, it is hard to make the case for
more
> number bases.

Yup, base-36 (digital moving map applications).

Re: number_base

[Peter Hermann]

Randy Brukardt <randy@rrsoftware.com> wrote:
> The main objection raised was potential confusion between 1 and l, and 0 and
> O in numeric literals.

as soon as a value is inside of #...# an expert reader is alerted anyway.

> My personal feeling is that it isn't worth the effort (and there is
> certainly non-zero effort required). Janus/Ada originally supported numeric
> literals to base 36; at some point we took it out in order to pass
> validation.

Except for the Janus/Ada above I estimate a full man-week, of course.

> We never got any complaints about it, so I have to conclude
> there wasn't much (if any) use of the feature.

The reason: any wise programer will stick to the standard for
portability and will roll own code in case of need.

> In any event, to get an AC changed to an AI, you need to find two ARG
> members to request it. Support from the general public isn't particularly
> relevant (I suppose a huge groundswell of opinion might sway some ARG
> members priorities, but otherwise you need to talk ARG members into it).

>                Randy Brukardt
>                ARG Editor

-- 
--Peter Hermann(49)0711-685-3611 fax3758 ica2ph@csv.ica.uni-stuttgart.de
--Pfaffenwaldring 27 Raum 114, D-70569 Stuttgart Uni Computeranwendungen
--http://www.csv.ica.uni-stuttgart.de/homes/ph/
--Team Ada: "C'mon people let the world begin" (Paul McCartney)

Re: number_base

[Jean-Pierre Rosen]

[-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --]
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 773 bytes --]


"Peter Hermann" <ica2ph@sinus.csv.ica.uni-stuttgart.de> a �crit dans le message de news:bntne8$vtf$1@news.uni-stuttgart.de...
> The reason: any wise programer will stick to the standard for
> portability and will roll own code in case of need.
>
And it's so easy to "roll own code" for the slight minority that needs it that it isn't worth putting into the standard.
This is typically a "nice to have" feature. We had hundreds of "nice to have" features for Ada95 that didn't make it into the
standard, simply because one-week-work * hundreds-of-features would have meant that we wouldn't have Ada95 compilers yet.

-- 
---------------------------------------------------------
           J-P. Rosen (rosen@adalog.fr)
Visit Adalog's web site at http://www.adalog.fr

Re: number_base

[Peter Hermann]

Jean-Pierre Rosen <rosen@adalog.fr> wrote:
> And it's so easy to "roll own code" for the slight minority that needs it that it isn't worth putting into the standard.
> This is typically a "nice to have" feature. We had hundreds of "nice to have" features for Ada95 that didn't make it into the
> standard, simply because one-week-work * hundreds-of-features would have meant that we wouldn't have Ada95 compilers yet.

You are right, of course.
And you may have seen my priority setting to "low".

OTOH, one should not underestimate(neglect) the promoting effect of a
potential
"oh cool, with Ada this is done so easy"

-- 
--Peter Hermann(49)0711-685-3611 fax3758 ica2ph@csv.ica.uni-stuttgart.de
--Pfaffenwaldring 27 Raum 114, D-70569 Stuttgart Uni Computeranwendungen
--http://www.csv.ica.uni-stuttgart.de/homes/ph/
--Team Ada: "C'mon people let the world begin" (Paul McCartney)

Re: number_base

[Mike Silva]

Peter Hermann <ica2ph@sinus.csv.ica.uni-stuttgart.de> wrote in message news:<bnqo38$duh$1@news.uni-stuttgart.de>...
> because of an immense practical value in data processing
> I would like to have an enlargement of the number_base 

What are some examples of the practical value of number bases greater than 16?

Mike

Re: number_base

[Dmytry Lavrov]

"Frank J. Lhota" <NOSPAM.lhota.adarose@verizon.net> wrote in message news:<Gndob.28781$294.490@nwrdny03.gnilink.net>...
> Has anyone in this NG written an Ada program that used a number base other
> than 2, 8, 10, or 16? These days, it would be hard to find an example that
> uses base 8. Looking at current usage, it is hard to make the case for more
> number bases.
Ha,USSR produced first and last(but don't sure) non-binary computer
with base 3
(!!!!!!!!)
Really!!! ;-)

Joking:
I(and you) really used another base many times.
Base X.
a*x^3+b*x^2+c*x+d...
many times i divided values in base-X,multiplied,etc.converted to
another base.I think you're too.

Seriously,
What's about base-60 ?
Our seconds/minutes/etc ?
(still joking)
Base 12 ?
I think as space-oriented,etc, ,ada should support all aliens
bases,who know,how many fingers they have?

Serious:
It's good idea with base-8 because always when i have base-16 "DE" i'm
counting "what's "D" are"? Why base 16 becomes more and more popular
but PackedBinaryCodedDecimals aren't used so much now?Mainly because
it's 1.5 faster to type?What if compare fingers "seek" time for abcdef
 and 1234567890?

Dmytry Lavrov.

http://dmytrylavrov.narod.ru

Re: number_base

[Dmitry A. Kazakov]

On 31 Oct 2003 10:26:47 -0800, snarflemike@yahoo.com (Mike Silva)
wrote:

>Peter Hermann <ica2ph@sinus.csv.ica.uni-stuttgart.de> wrote in message news:<bnqo38$duh$1@news.uni-stuttgart.de>...
>> because of an immense practical value in data processing
>> I would like to have an enlargement of the number_base 
>
>What are some examples of the practical value of number bases greater than 16?

With 32-bit UNICODE and Chinese hieroglyphs as the figures ... (:-))

---
Regards,
Dmitry Kazakov
www.dmitry-kazakov.de

Re: number_base

[Dmitry A. Kazakov]

On 31 Oct 2003 12:58:45 -0800, in comp.lang.ada you wrote:

>"Frank J. Lhota" <NOSPAM.lhota.adarose@verizon.net> wrote in message news:<Gndob.28781$294.490@nwrdny03.gnilink.net>...
>> Has anyone in this NG written an Ada program that used a number base other
>> than 2, 8, 10, or 16? These days, it would be hard to find an example that
>> uses base 8. Looking at current usage, it is hard to make the case for more
>> number bases.
>Ha,USSR produced first and last(but don't sure) non-binary computer
>with base 3
>(!!!!!!!!)
>Really!!! ;-)

Wasn't it actually e or Pi? I remotely remember something like that.

>Joking:
>I(and you) really used another base many times.
>Base X.
>a*x^3+b*x^2+c*x+d...
>many times i divided values in base-X,multiplied,etc.converted to
>another base.I think you're too.
>
>Seriously,
>What's about base-60 ?
>Our seconds/minutes/etc ?
>(still joking)
>Base 12 ?

As for comic bases, there was a military purpose computer in USSR with
the base 11 or maybe 13 (I do not remember). 

>I think as space-oriented,etc, ,ada should support all aliens
>bases,who know,how many fingers they have?

Or whether that number be countable! (:-))

---
Regards,
Dmitry Kazakov
www.dmitry-kazakov.de

Re: number_base

[Lutz Donnerhacke]

* Dmitry A Kazakov wrote:
> Wasn't it actually e or Pi? I remotely remember something like that.

e is the most efficient base to store large numbers. Unfortunaly hardware to
the base e is difficult to develop. That's why most systems choose the next
natural number around e to store date to this base.

Re: number_base

[Peter Hermann]

Mike Silva <snarflemike@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Peter Hermann <ica2ph@sinus.csv.ica.uni-stuttgart.de> wrote in message news:<bnqo38$duh$1@news.uni-stuttgart.de>...
>> because of an immense practical value in data processing
>> I would like to have an enlargement of the number_base 

> What are some examples of the practical value of number bases greater than 16?

> Mike

quite a lot of ASCII-encoding/decoding purposes.
There are many examples, e.g. in GPS and moving map usage etc. .
Only two of them:

e.g. look at *.igc-files of e.g.
http://www.segelflugszene.de/olcphp/olc-i.php?olc=olc-i

or look at time6stamp of
http://www.csv.ica.uni-stuttgart.de/homes/ph/adapilotresources/basic_tools/calenday.ads

-- 
--Peter Hermann(49)0711-685-3611 fax3758 ica2ph@csv.ica.uni-stuttgart.de
--Pfaffenwaldring 27 Raum 114, D-70569 Stuttgart Uni Computeranwendungen
--http://www.csv.ica.uni-stuttgart.de/homes/ph/
--Team Ada: "C'mon people let the world begin" (Paul McCartney)

Re: number_base

[Frank J. Lhota]

"Dmytry Lavrov" <dmytrylavrov@fsmail.net> wrote in message
news:49cbf610.0310311258.2024b12b@posting.google.com...
> Seriously,
> What's about base-60 ?
> Our seconds/minutes/etc ?
> (still joking)
> Base 12 ?

The ancient Babylonians counted using groups of 12. The countries that
Babylon traded with, of course, counted using base 10, creating an early
standards conflict. The Babylonians overcame this conflict somewhat by
making frequent use of the number 60, the least common multiple of 10 and
12. The use of 60 in Bablonian mathematics lead dircetly to our current
system of measuring both time (60 minutes in an hour, 60 seconds in a
minute) and angles (360 degrees in a full circle).

Speaking of the ancients, should Ada be extended to support Roman numerals?
Why can't I print 2003 as "MMIII"?

Re: number_base

[Wes Groleau]

Frank J. Lhota wrote:
> Speaking of the ancients, should Ada be extended to support Roman numerals?
> Why can't I print 2003 as "MMIII"?

Because MI is not allowed in Ada.

-- 
Wes Groleau
When all you have is a perl, everything looks like a string.

Re: number_base

[Preben Randhol]

On 2003-11-03, Frank J. Lhota <NOSPAM.lhota.adarose@verizon.net> wrote:
> Speaking of the ancients, should Ada be extended to support Roman numerals?
> Why can't I print 2003 as "MMIII"?

   Put_Line ("MMIII"); 

works for me ;-)

-- 
"Saving keystrokes is the job of the text editor, not the programming
 language."

Re: number_base

[Dmitry A. Kazakov]

On Tue, 4 Nov 2003 10:59:39 +0000 (UTC), Preben Randhol
<randhol+valid_for_reply_from_news@pvv.org> wrote:

>On 2003-11-03, Frank J. Lhota <NOSPAM.lhota.adarose@verizon.net> wrote:
>> Speaking of the ancients, should Ada be extended to support Roman numerals?
>> Why can't I print 2003 as "MMIII"?
>
>   Put_Line ("MMIII"); 
>
>works for me ;-)

with Ada.Text_IO;   use Ada.Text_IO;
with Strings_Edit.Roman_Edit;  use Strings_Edit.Roman_Edit;

procedure Romans is
   Number : Roman := 2003;
begin
   Put_Line ("2003=" & Image (Number));
end Romans;

---
Regards,
Dmitry Kazakov
www.dmitry-kazakov.de

Re: number_base

[Preben Randhol]

On 2003-11-04, Dmitry A Kazakov <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de> wrote:
> with Ada.Text_IO;   use Ada.Text_IO;
> with Strings_Edit.Roman_Edit;  use Strings_Edit.Roman_Edit;
>
> procedure Romans is
>    Number : Roman := 2003;
> begin
>    Put_Line ("2003=" & Image (Number));
                         Roman' Image

you mean?

if not 

   function Image ( Number : Roman) return String;

;-)

-- 
"Saving keystrokes is the job of the text editor, not the programming
 language."

Re: number_base

[Dmitry A. Kazakov]

On Tue, 4 Nov 2003 14:13:43 +0000 (UTC), Preben Randhol
<randhol+valid_for_reply_from_news@pvv.org> wrote:

>On 2003-11-04, Dmitry A Kazakov <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de> wrote:
>> with Ada.Text_IO;   use Ada.Text_IO;
>> with Strings_Edit.Roman_Edit;  use Strings_Edit.Roman_Edit;
>>
>> procedure Romans is
>>    Number : Roman := 2003;
>> begin
>>    Put_Line ("2003=" & Image (Number));
>                         Roman' Image
>
>you mean?

Should Ada have allowed overriding attributes ... But if it would,
then one should immediately replace T'Image (X) with X'Image. So then:

Number'Image

(and without Trim, note! (:-))

>if not 
>
>   function Image ( Number : Roman) return String;

Yes, it is how it is implemented in Strings_Edit.Roman_Edit

---
Regards,
Dmitry Kazakov
www.dmitry-kazakov.de