From: kilgallen@eisner.decus.org (Larry Kilgallen)
Subject: Re: Printing Enum Variable Re: Linux World
Date: 1999/03/08
Date: 1999-03-08T00:00:00+00:00 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <1999Mar8.075013.1@eisner> (raw)
In-Reply-To: 7bva62$kgm$1@remarQ.com
In article <7bva62$kgm$1@remarQ.com>, "Michael Young" <nobody@all.org> writes:
> Larry Kilgallen <kilgallen@eisner.decus.org> wrote in message
> news:1999Mar7.074102.1@eisner...
>> While those participating in this forum may be atypical, there is
>> a belief that most of those with a C++ compiler are programming in
>> C. In that sense, this backward compatibility may be the greatest
>> technical weakness of C++, as well as its greatest marketing strength
>> (selling lots of licenses to people who don't really use the
> features).
>
> I agree wholeheartedly that C encourages certain poor programming
> practices. However, Ada is not the only solution to these problem. I
> hear in your postings: "Ada is better than C; C++ supports features and
> practices we recognize as evil in C; therefore, C++ is bad. OTOH, Ada
> rejects all of C; therefore Ada is good." That's pretty convoluted,
> don't you think?
I did not mean to say (and I don't believe I ever said) that Ada was
the only solution to anything. I believe the fact that C++ supports
the operations of C is a weakness. I view the fact that some Ada
compilers support the operations of assembly language is a weakness*.
>> > While I'm not especially fond of the old SDK, its structure looks
>> > surprisingly like object use in Ada today. Instead of the more
> succinct
>> > C++/Java style aWindow.GetDC(), we see GetDC(aWindow).
>>
>> I am not sure how one views the first as more succinct, but my own
>> feelings are more swayed by type-safety than syntax.
>
> I was pointing out that the SDK exposed an object structured interface,
> implemented in C, well before object oriented languages were seen
> outside academia. I only meant to say that, because of the similarity in
> syntax, this should have been more evident to Ada programmers than to
> C++ or Java programmers. With that in mind, I found it especially odd to
> see it bashed (along with everything not implemented in Ada).
Certainly the Windows SDK presents an object-oriented model to the caller,
but I am much more interested in type safety than object orientation, so
I was not impressed when I first saw the Windows SDK.
> In very large systems, interface stability is a primary requirement, not
> merely an inconvenient liability. Many here are quick to point out that
> "large systems" are the rightful domain of Ada. I therefore expected to
> find in this crowd some understanding of the legacy issues involved. As
> before with the SDK "object" syntax, I found the bashing unwarranted and
> misguided.
The fact that the Windows SDK is a given cannot be contested. That
does not make it pleasing, and the fact that it seemed just a "pretend"
effort at object orientation makes it less pleasing. By comparison,
I think the X-Windows/Motif and the Macintosh GUI APIs are both more
regular than the one for Windows.
> Anyway, I came here to learn more about Ada, not to preach about large
> system development. I'll refrain from further postings of this nature,
> and hope you'll likewise use restraint in speculating about the
> weaknesses of C++; I presume I already know more about those than you.
We appreciate your participation, and for a C/Windows expert I think
an instructive place to look (if you have not already) would be the
Ada bindings to the Windows SDK. The one that is used by the Aonix
GUI builder (I get the names confused), for instance, gives a good
look at what people had to go through in Ada to get a set of bindings
to the Windows API, and it seems to be hampered by an excessive number
of slightly different types due to irregularities in the basic Microsoft
definitions. Certainly it is also hampered by being a machine-generated
set of bindings, but that is supposedly a self-defense mechanism to be able
to adapt to Microsoft changes.
But perhaps from your perspective something else is amiss in the way
those bindings were constructed.
Larry Kilgallen
* Ada compiler support for assembly language is somewhat ameliorated
by the facts that:
a) nobody would ever presume such usage was portable,
and:
b) recent posts have shown that real beginners have a
tough time figuring out how to get it working.
next prev parent reply other threads:[~1999-03-08 0:00 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 79+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
1999-03-02 0:00 Linux World Richard D Riehle
1999-03-02 0:00 ` fraser
1999-03-02 0:00 ` Printing Enum Variable " David Starner
1999-03-03 0:00 ` fraser
1999-03-03 0:00 ` David Starner
1999-03-03 0:00 ` fraser
1999-03-03 0:00 ` Samuel T. Harris
1999-03-04 0:00 ` robert_dewar
1999-03-03 0:00 ` David Starner
1999-03-04 0:00 ` Samuel Mize
1999-03-04 0:00 ` Samuel Mize
1999-03-05 0:00 ` Robert A Duff
1999-03-05 0:00 ` Robert A Duff
1999-03-07 0:00 ` Florian Weimer
1999-03-07 0:00 ` Michael Young
1999-03-07 0:00 ` Matthew Heaney
1999-03-08 0:00 ` Michael Young
1999-03-08 0:00 ` Matthew Heaney
1999-03-07 0:00 ` Larry Kilgallen
1999-03-07 0:00 ` Michael Young
1999-03-08 0:00 ` robert_dewar
1999-03-08 0:00 ` Richard D Riehle
1999-03-09 0:00 ` Michael Young
1999-03-09 0:00 ` Larry Kilgallen
1999-03-09 0:00 ` billy
1999-03-10 0:00 ` Pascal Obry
1999-03-10 0:00 ` robert_dewar
1999-03-10 0:00 ` Dale Stanbrough
1999-03-10 0:00 ` Richard D Riehle
1999-03-10 0:00 ` Pascal Obry
1999-03-10 0:00 ` dennison
1999-03-10 0:00 ` bob
1999-03-10 0:00 ` Mike Silva
1999-03-10 0:00 ` dennison
1999-03-10 0:00 ` Nick Roberts
1999-03-09 0:00 ` Michael Young
1999-03-10 0:00 ` Mike Silva
[not found] ` <7c4ru6$e45$1@remarq.com>
1999-03-10 0:00 ` fraser
[not found] ` <7 <7c58qa$b6b$1@cf01.edf.fr>
1999-03-10 0:00 ` fraser
[not found] ` <1999Mar9.131659. <dale-1003991644340001@r1021c-07.ppp.cs.rmit.edu.au>
1999-03-10 0:00 ` Larry Kilgallen
1999-03-08 0:00 ` Florian Weimer
1999-03-08 0:00 ` Larry Kilgallen [this message]
1999-03-08 0:00 ` robert_dewar
1999-03-04 0:00 ` robert_dewar
1999-03-04 0:00 ` Ehud Lamm
1999-03-05 0:00 ` Richard D Riehle
1999-03-05 0:00 ` Nick Roberts
1999-03-06 0:00 ` Ehud Lamm
1999-03-06 0:00 ` robert_dewar
1999-03-06 0:00 ` Ehud Lamm
1999-03-06 0:00 ` Larry Kilgallen
1999-03-06 0:00 ` Dave Taylor
1999-03-06 0:00 ` Bruce or Tracy
1999-03-04 0:00 ` dennison
1999-03-04 0:00 ` Ehud Lamm
1999-03-03 0:00 ` Larry Kilgallen
1999-03-03 0:00 ` Nick Roberts
1999-03-03 0:00 ` David Starner
1999-03-03 0:00 ` Fraser Wilson
1999-03-03 0:00 ` David Starner
1999-03-04 0:00 ` Magnus Larsson
1999-03-03 0:00 ` Printing Enum Variable Re: Linux World (Correction) Hans Marqvardsen
1999-03-03 0:00 ` Printing Enum Variable Re: Linux World Hans Marqvardsen
1999-03-04 0:00 ` Nick Roberts
1999-03-04 0:00 ` robert_dewar
1999-03-04 0:00 ` Hans Marqvardsen
1999-03-05 0:00 ` dewar
1999-03-07 0:00 ` Hans Marqvardsen
1999-03-04 0:00 ` Hans Marqvardsen
1999-03-05 0:00 ` dewar
1999-03-05 0:00 ` David Botton
1999-03-05 0:00 ` robert_dewar
1999-03-05 0:00 ` Larry Kilgallen
1999-03-04 0:00 ` fraser
1999-03-05 0:00 ` Nick Roberts
1999-03-05 0:00 ` fraser
1999-03-04 0:00 ` Richard D Riehle
1999-03-04 0:00 ` robert_dewar
1999-03-04 0:00 ` Richard D Riehle
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