Re: New Home for Ada-Malaysia

Re: New Home for Ada-Malaysia

[Ted Dennison]

In article <824s0t$h2r$1@nnrp1.deja.com>,
  Adrian Hoe <byhoe@my-deja.com> wrote:

> Ada-Malaysia has moved to new home at
> http://greenlime.com/Ada-Malaysia.

There's an Ada/Linux success story on that site that's worth a read (
http://greenlime.com/Ada-Malaysia/success_story_1.html ). The project
was the complete reimplementation of a system, and the realtive
statistics for the two systems are quite striking.

Of course one could argue that a complete redesign in *any* langauge
might have achived similar benifits.

--
T.E.D.


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New Home for Ada-Malaysia

[Adrian Hoe]

Hello All,

Ada-Malaysia has moved to new home at http://greenlime.com/Ada-Malaysia.

Enjoy surfing!

--
Adrian BY, Hoe
--------------


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Re: New Home for Ada-Malaysia

[Robert I. Eachus]

Ted Dennison wrote:
 
> Of course one could argue that a complete redesign in *any* langauge
> might have achived similar benifits.

    "..and I can call Spirits from the Vasty Deep."
    "Why, so can I.  So can any man.  But do they come when you call
them?"
    (From Shakespeare's The Tempest)

    You could so argue.  But I don't think I, or any software engineer,
would believe you after seeing those graphs.  The relative costs and
downtime are impressive, but what is even more impressive is the
contrast between steady increases for version 2, and fast decreases
toward zero for the Ada version.  

-- 

                                        Robert I. Eachus

with Standard_Disclaimer;
use  Standard_Disclaimer;
function Message (Text: in Clever_Ideas) return Better_Ideas is...

Re: New Home for Ada-Malaysia

[Larry Kilgallen]

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In article <828522$bho$1@clnews.edf.fr>, "Pascal Obry" <p.obry@der.edf.fr> writes:
> 
> Ted Dennison <dennison@telepath.com> a �crit dans le message :
> 8260kf$aan$1@nnrp1.deja.com...

>> There's an Ada/Linux success story on that site that's worth a read (
>> http://greenlime.com/Ada-Malaysia/success_story_1.html ). The project
>> was the complete reimplementation of a system, and the realtive
>> statistics for the two systems are quite striking.
>>
>> Of course one could argue that a complete redesign in *any* langauge
>> might have achived similar benifits.
> 
> I would not have assumed that for the "Down Time". One could expect to
> see more problems during the first months for the new version. That's a
> real nice feedback !

That success story looked _so_ good (in general) as to be questionable.
Has anyone obtained independent corroboration, other than reading this
web site ?

Larry Kilgallen

Re: New Home for Ada-Malaysia

[Pascal Obry]

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Ted Dennison <dennison@telepath.com> a �crit dans le message :
8260kf$aan$1@nnrp1.deja.com...
> In article <824s0t$h2r$1@nnrp1.deja.com>,
>   Adrian Hoe <byhoe@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
> > Ada-Malaysia has moved to new home at
> > http://greenlime.com/Ada-Malaysia.
>
> There's an Ada/Linux success story on that site that's worth a read (
> http://greenlime.com/Ada-Malaysia/success_story_1.html ). The project
> was the complete reimplementation of a system, and the realtive
> statistics for the two systems are quite striking.
>
> Of course one could argue that a complete redesign in *any* langauge
> might have achived similar benifits.

I would not have assumed that for the "Down Time". One could expect to
see more problems during the first months for the new version. That's a
real nice feedback !

Pascal.

--

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--| Pascal Obry                               Team-Ada Member |
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--| Bureau N-023            e-mail: pascal.obry@edf.fr        |
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--|   "The best way to travel is by means of imagination"

Re: New Home for Ada-Malaysia

[Adrian Hoe]

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In article <1999Dec3.104237.1@eisner>,
  Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam wrote:
> In article <828522$bho$1@clnews.edf.fr>, "Pascal Obry"
<p.obry@der.edf.fr> writes:
> >
> > Ted Dennison <dennison@telepath.com> a �crit dans le message :
> > 8260kf$aan$1@nnrp1.deja.com...
>
> >> There's an Ada/Linux success story on that site that's worth a read
(
> >> http://greenlime.com/Ada-Malaysia/success_story_1.html ). The
project
> >> was the complete reimplementation of a system, and the realtive
> >> statistics for the two systems are quite striking.
> >>
> >> Of course one could argue that a complete redesign in *any*
langauge
> >> might have achived similar benifits.
> >
> > I would not have assumed that for the "Down Time". One could expect
to
> > see more problems during the first months for the new version.
That's a
> > real nice feedback !
>
> That success story looked _so_ good (in general) as to be
questionable.
> Has anyone obtained independent corroboration, other than reading this
> web site ?
>
> Larry Kilgallen
>




The graphs showed the averaged values. Take support costs for instance,
both cost for mix language application (version 2) and version 3
indicates the averaged costs taken into account of man-hours involved to
pinpoint a software bugs that include rectifying the problem. Version 2
showed at high of RM7500 for the first month of implementation compare
to version 3 of the first month of implementation. It's clearly that to
debug version 2, will involve more developers than version 3 becuase of
the mixed-language modules in version2. But the readers have to take the
version 3, which is built on top of the stabilized version 2 into
account. Here, it will be difficult to separate the actual cost of
debugging a stable codes and unstable codes. We take into accounts of
the jobs done onto reported bugs. The number of reported bugs in version
3 is actually almost equaled to version 2. this statistic was not shown.
But bear in mind that the bugs in V3 are a mix of human-causes and
algorithms.

On down time, integration between debugged modules and other existing
modules are relatively easier. In v2, debugging a single modules with
bug(s) involved other modules dued to language interfacing. That means
shutdown of other modules as well. Hence resulting the increased
downtime for v2 compared to v3.

We don't guarantee the accuracy of the graphs (v2 values are based on
total amounts billed to our client. For that time, we did not intend to
collect this kind of statistics) but we had done the best to take all
values into accounts. We don't have any independent corroborations on
this. Lexical has done her best in compiling the statistics for the sake
of comparing Ada to other languages. The statistics were intended for
internal studies only but we decided to share this with other Ada
advocates and those who have interests in Ada. It is up to individual to
interpret the message we are trying to deliver. But if one needs further
explanation, they can always contact those persons listed at the end of
the document. We will most certainly give our best to explain.

Hope this give a statisfying feedback everyone.
--
Adrian BY, Hoe
--------------


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Re: New Home for Ada-Malaysia

[Adrian Hoe]

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In article <1999Dec3.104237.1@eisner>,
  Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam wrote:
> In article <828522$bho$1@clnews.edf.fr>, "Pascal Obry"
<p.obry@der.edf.fr> writes:
> >
> > Ted Dennison <dennison@telepath.com> a �crit dans le message :
> > 8260kf$aan$1@nnrp1.deja.com...
>
> >> There's an Ada/Linux success story on that site that's worth a read
(
> >> http://greenlime.com/Ada-Malaysia/success_story_1.html ). The
project
> >> was the complete reimplementation of a system, and the realtive
> >> statistics for the two systems are quite striking.
> >>
> >> Of course one could argue that a complete redesign in *any*
langauge
> >> might have achived similar benifits.
> >
> > I would not have assumed that for the "Down Time". One could expect
to
> > see more problems during the first months for the new version.
That's a
> > real nice feedback !


Well, it took Lexical's team four years to complete the entire systems
and during the process, they had given all their best into every single
LOC squeezed out of their brain cells. Separate testing and debugging
sessions were exercised during the course. 25 hours of downtime for V3
in the first month compare to 75 hours for v2 is not too far apart.


>
> That success story looked _so_ good (in general) as to be
questionable.


My team has given every efforts to compile, if not accurate,
near-accurate statistics for the purpose. If anyone has doubts, please
contact those contact persons listed at the end of the document. I am
sure they will give every best they have to answer your questions.


> Has anyone obtained independent corroboration, other than reading this
> web site ?
>
> Larry Kilgallen
>



My team members are quite sad on the feedbacks on CLA. For Ada sake,
these people are trying to give their best in helping to promote Ada in
Malaysia. Why put down their spirit???

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Adrian BY, Hoe
--------------


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Re: New Home for Ada-Malaysia

[Larry Kilgallen]

In article <82ctkj$ti$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, Adrian Hoe <byhoe@my-deja.com> writes:

> My team members are quite sad on the feedbacks on CLA. For Ada sake,
> these people are trying to give their best in helping to promote Ada in
> Malaysia. Why put down their spirit???

I had not seen any discussion other than "the report looks great".
My only interest was to ensure that we didn't _all_ say that and
end up with egg on our face by discovering that there was no such
project or no such company.  My feeling is that this report will
end up being quite famous.

Knowing that there is a human on CLA who can discuss the project
and answer questions gives me reassurance.  That being said, I
personally have no further questions.

Larry Kilgallen

Re: New Home for Ada-Malaysia

[katy_yong]

In article <1999Dec5.101105.1@eisner>,
  Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam wrote:
> In article <82ctkj$ti$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, Adrian Hoe
<byhoe@my-deja.com> writes:
>
> > My team members are quite sad on the feedbacks on CLA. For Ada sake,
> > these people are trying to give their best in helping to promote Ada
in
> > Malaysia. Why put down their spirit???
>
> I had not seen any discussion other than "the report looks great".
> My only interest was to ensure that we didn't _all_ say that and
> end up with egg on our face by discovering that there was no such
> project or no such company.  My feeling is that this report will
> end up being quite famous.
>
> Knowing that there is a human on CLA who can discuss the project
> and answer questions gives me reassurance.  That being said, I
> personally have no further questions.
>
> Larry Kilgallen
>




Thanks Adrian (byhoe) for explaining to CLA.

The reading on these three graphs look "unrealistic" may have these
reasons:

1. The reading for mix-language (V2) may not be accurate, meaning the
actual values may be less or more than the published. These reading are
gathered from the invoices that we had billed to the clients and there
were no remarks indicating which exactly the job categories. Take
downtime for example, the reading may include downtime caused by
hardware or OS failure which this could never be stated on the old
invoices. These invoices are more than 4 years old!

2. The reading for Ada port (V3) look promising 'good' because V3's
algorithms and business rules are ported from V2 which had been stable
for couple of years. Most of the bugs were being eliminated during
design and coding phases. We have got three layers of QA for every
lines/modules.


We understand CLAs concerns over the authenticity of the study/document.
If anyone would like further clarification, he/she is always welcomed.

The posts in this thread, no doubt, has put some pressure to my team
members. My team and I can comprehend that and I would like to represent
them to let you know that this thread has given a lot of valuable
experience in posting such success story and we will certainly exercise
a more comprehensive practice in future success story.

No hard feeling, yeah?  :,)


Warmest regards and many thanks to all who have visited Ada-Malaysia
website and given their valuable and constructive critics. We appreciate
very much.


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Re: New Home for Ada-Malaysia

[Adrian Hoe]

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In article <01bf3ef8$ebdec540$022a6282@dieppe>,
  "Pascal Obry" <pascal_obry@csi.com> wrote:
>
>
> Adrian Hoe <byhoe@my-deja.com> a �crit dans l'article
> <82ctkj$ti$1@nnrp1.deja.com>...
> > My team members are quite sad on the feedbacks on CLA. For Ada sake,
> > these people are trying to give their best in helping to promote Ada
in
> > Malaysia. Why put down their spirit???
>
> I don't think that was the goal here. Just that your data are so good
that
> everybody
> was in right to doubt a bit :-) Anyway it is definitly a very good
> feedbacks given
> your comments. Thanks for the effort, I do know that it is not that
easy to
> build
> this kind of statistics.
>
> Bear in mind that we are certainly all here to promote Ada, but for
that we
> must
> just be careful to not buy blindly any comment we can found on the Web
:-)
> This
> will for sure deserve Ada greatly!



We can't deny this site look so `great' that some further comments have
been left out.


> Again, thanks for the data, I have bookmarked this page :)


thanks for bookmarking the site.



Adrian BY, Hoe
--------------


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