Mike Feldman, meet Archie

Mike Feldman, meet Archie

[Gregory Aharonian]

   Periodically, Mike Feldman posts a list of projects using Ada.  By
itself, the list is interesting, I guess, but without any context (in
terms of use of other languages in projects, and comparisons by lines
of code, year of start and end, cost ,etc) it is hard to conclude much
from the list other than - Ada use exists.  Since we all know Ada use
exists - what's the point.

   Anyways, I decided, since I have nothing better to do, to come up with
my own list.  My list is the distribution of Ada on public computer sites
around the world - a global form of a version of Mike's list.  To prepare
this list, I issued an Archie query for the string "Ada".  Archie is a
program available at most Internet sites that searches through a database
of all of the files publicly available over the Internet through anonymous
ftp.  Periodically computers around the world have their directories swept
for information on such files, and all of this information is stored in 
a central database, which can be searched with the Archie protocol.  It is
a very valuable service, to be able to search many of the world's computers
easily and for free (and it also illustrates how far behind the world the
DoD is when it comes to software and information reuse - Archie itself
show how primitive ASSET and DSRO are - you guys ever hear about the Internet?)

   What were the results of my query?  First, keep in mind that for some
reason most xxx.yyy.MIL sites are not scannable with Archie - you will notice
no such sites in the list below.  Thus the SIMTEL20 repository will not
show up here, as well as other .MIL sites with Ada codes and information.
Also, for some reason the SEI and AJPO sites don't show up here.  However
as a measure of Ada presence in the non-Mandated world, these sites should
be excluded from any search.  Also, I did not do the most comprehensive
Archie search, through which I could have picked up more sites.  Thus,
while my search is not exhaustive, it probably is as exhaustive as 
Mike's search.

    What did I find?  Not much.  The majority of any such Ada references
on sites around the world were to copies of the Ada bindings to X-Windows,
and to the Adaed compiler.  Beyond that, there were a few references to
Ada documents and Ada source code.  Keep in mind that in my string search
for "Ada", I got more references to the "Adams Family" than I did for all
of the Ada-specific references (though putting Gomez in charging of Ada
policy does sound interesting).

    Anyways, measures like this, help wanted ads, commercial reuse products,
actually licensed software, all show that Ada acceptance has been, is and
will be minimal in the non-Mandated world until someone (the DoD, compiler
vendors, or contractors) takes the responsibility of actively promoting
Ada.  This Archie result is embarrassing, given the billions being spent
on Ada development projects.  Embarrassing.


Gregory Aharonian
Source Translation & Optimization


==============================================================================


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-- 
**************************************************************************
Greg Aharonian
Source Translation & Optimiztion
P.O. Box 404, Belmont, MA 02178

Re: Mike Feldman, meet Archie

[Scott McCoy]

I wanted to point out a couple of assumptions implicit in
Gregory's archie query:

	1.  the query was case-sensitive.
	2.  Archie queries are based on file (and dir) names.

Therefore, if any Ada stuff appeared without the string 'Ada'
in its file name, it wouldn't appear in the query results.
Note this is valid for all archie data, not just Ada.  For
example, most of the comp.sources.unix submissions are
written in 'C'.  But very few are distinguishable as being
written in 'C' just from the file name.

In any case, as a point of comparison, somebody want to run 
an archie query on 'c++', 'fortran', 'cobol', etc.  and 
summarize the results?

-- 
Scott McCoy	Harris ISD	Opinions expressed are my own.
Staff Eng - SW	Internet: 	smccoy@dw3g.ess.harris.com

Re: Mike Feldman, meet Archie

[Scott McCoy]

I wrote:
|> 
|> In any case, as a point of comparison, somebody want to run 
|> an archie query on 'c++', 'fortran', 'cobol', etc.  and 
|> summarize the results?
|> 

I just took a couple of minutes and ran an archie query on 'C++'.
All archie found were (hundreds of copies) of C++ LaTex, and a 
C++ mode configuration file for emacs.  

There may have been some wheat in all that chaff, but I didn't 
see it.

-- 
Scott McCoy	Harris ISD	Opinions expressed are my own.
Staff Eng - SW	Internet: 	smccoy@dw3g.ess.harris.com

Re: Mike Feldman, meet Archie

[Benjamin Ketcham]

Looks like you did a case-sensitive search for "Ada", Greg.  Don't you
think it would have been good to look for "ada" as well?  Or, perhaps,
".ada" and "ada.", to cut down on things like "canada"...

$.02, please.

--ben

Re: Mike Feldman, meet Archie

[David Emery]

For various stupid reasons, the Verdix compiler and its derivatives
require that Ada source code in in ".a".  So Greg should add this to
his search.  (Of course, then he'll have to distinguish between
ada_file.a and unix_archive.a.)
				dave

Re: Mike Feldman, meet Archie

[C558172]

In article <C3BJEx.5Gy@world.std.com>
srctran@world.std.com (Gregory Aharonian) writes:
 
>
>show how primitive ASSET and DSRO are - you guys ever hear about the Internet?)
I spent four years in the AF. I heard plenty about Ada (and saw nothing)
and heard nothing of the internet ('till I got to college).
 
>    Anyways, measures like this, help wanted ads, commercial reuse products,
>actually licensed software, all show that Ada acceptance has been, is and
>will be minimal in the non-Mandated world until someone (the DoD, compiler
>vendors, or contractors) takes the responsibility of actively promoting
>Ada.  This Archie result is embarrassing, given the billions being spent
>on Ada development projects.  Embarrassing.
>
>
>Gregory Aharonian
>Source Translation & Optimization
>
Well I agree with that. At least one person in the government understands
the power of internet--Al Gore. Why don't we all just email him a
"save Ada" message. Let's see, Gore knows internet, Gore's big on
endangered species (Ada & Ada programmers), Gore wants to save jobs
=> Gore the Ada Czar
--Shannon

Re: Mike Feldman, meet Archie

[cis.ohio-state.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!usc!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!eff]

    As many have pointed out, and as I pointed out in my original posting,
the Archie search I performed was not very thorough.  I did not intend it to
be, as it was more of a lark prompted by Mike's periodic posting of Ada
projects.
    As someone pointed out, searches for "C++" strings don't return much,
even though there is over ten gigabytes of C/C++ code scattered across the
ftp-sites of the world.  Though, given the logic of assuming a search of
"ada" or "Ada" is what most people would do using the various Internet
searching protocols, you would figure that people with Ada codes available
across the nets would take the initiative and rename their files to be
more obviously identifiable.  If Verdix uses ".a", why can't such sites
use a file-name-redirect to create a variant filename that points to the
original file.  It's these little initiatives that separate real software
reuse practioners from the amatuers at places like ASSET and DSRO, that is,
trying to anticipate and support your customers (don't you hate that word)
needs.

    The point I weakly tried to make with my posting, and more strongly in
other postings, is that the Ada world has no validated measure of Ada
acceptance in the non-Mandated world, that is, no one knows the actual
market share currently, or during the past ten years.  No one knows if
Ada as a new language is being more widely accepted than other new
languages, such as C++ (probably), Smalltalk (maybe), Forth (doubtful) 
or Prolog (doubtful), if it is gaining or losing compared to these
languages.

    The stick-our-heads-in-the-ground attitude, as epitomized in the
million dollar waste of the Mosemann studies, is that the Ada community
has no interest in the demographics of Ada in the non-Mandated world, and
as the GAO pointed out and the DoD not addressed, even in the Mandated world,
the data collected is incomplete and sparse.

    There is nothing more silly than the whole Ada-9X project, for the
simple reason that Ada83 is a pretty good language already, whose major
problems was that no one (DoD, compiler vendors, contractors) cared to
really evangelize for the language and help it win market share.  Instead
of focussing on that rather complex socioeconomic problem, the DoD decided
to focus on a technical problem, that of upgrading Ada83.  Fine, I guess,
but the language is going to be even less accepted than Ada83 because some
of the windows of opportunity open to Ada83 have been shut by C++ and
Smalltalk (partially thanks to IBM).

    Now if people in the DoD were serious about making Ada an accepted
language outside of the Mandated world, in the formal business sense of
launching a product, the first business thing to do would be to do a
comprehensive survey of Ada use in the non-Mandated world, for example,
by doing methodical Archie and WAIS surveys, contacting software
development companies, scanning thousands of technical reports with
source code listings, searches of universities theses, commercial CDROMS
with source code, counting job requirements in help wanted ads for languages
listed, and other areas to find out usage trends for programming
languages for the past ten years to see how well Ada is doing, where it
is doing well, and what are the perceptions of Ada in the non-Mandated
world.

    Such information is crucial for Ada83 and Ada9X survival, yet no one
seems to care, and the one chance to answer such questions, the Mosemann
studies, were flawed beyond conception.  All anyone ever hears about Ada
in the non-Mandated world are ancedotal information, like Mike's posting.
There are no hard facts, more specifically, no systematic collection of
information that would satisfy someone interested in investing in an Ada
venture.

    I would love to do such a study, if for nothing else than to give the
rest of you a chance to flame me for something I have done at taxpayer
expense (and if anyone knows a DoD office I can contact, let me know).

   In any event, my Archie search, Mike's posting, and general knowledge
about Ada usage, are all pretty much equally twentieth-assed, even though
many DoD decisions are made assuming such data exists.


Gregory Aharonian
Source Translation & Optimization
-- 
**************************************************************************
Greg Aharonian
Source Translation & Optimiztion
P.O. Box 404, Belmont, MA 02178

Re: Mike Feldman, meet Archie

[David Emery]

>    Now if people in the DoD were serious about making Ada an accepted
>language outside of the Mandated world, in the formal business sense of
>launching a product, the first business thing to do would be to do a
>comprehensive survey of Ada use in the non-Mandated world, for example,
>by doing methodical Archie and WAIS surveys, contacting software
>development companies, scanning thousands of technical reports with
>source code listings, searches of universities theses, commercial CDROMS
>with source code, counting job requirements in help wanted ads for languages
>listed, and other areas to find out usage trends for programming

I agree that there is room for a serious Ada study, but in the list
Greg mentions, the *only* thing that counts is "contacting software
development companies."  The reason is that 'real developers' are too
busy doing 'real work' to write tech reports, and they generally do
not place their code in the public domain.  Studying Archie and WAIS
databases, technical reports, university theses, etc, will generally
reveal the state of the practice in the research community, which is
different than the state of practice in the commercial world.  

What's most important is finding those companies that are using Ada
when they don't have to, and capitalizing on lessons learned from
them.  Some companies using Ada have declined to answer such surveys,
citing their reasons for Ada as a competitive advantage.  Others have
been more open. 

On the other hand, as has been said many times, choice of language is
*not* generally a technical decision.  The fact that Ada was developed
by the DOD tends to prejudice it in the eyes of many who believe that
anything having to do with the military is inherently evil.  This is
particularly true in academic settings...

				dave

Re: Mike Feldman, meet Archie

[enterpoop.mit.edu!usc!howland.reston.ans.net!bogus.sura.net!jhunix.hcf.jh]

In article <C3BJEx.5Gy@world.std.com> srctran@world.std.com (Gregory Aharonian)
 writes:
>
>   Periodically, Mike Feldman posts a list of projects using Ada.  By
>itself, the list is interesting, I guess, but without any context (in
>terms of use of other languages in projects, and comparisons by lines
>of code, year of start and end, cost ,etc) it is hard to conclude much
>from the list other than - Ada use exists.  Since we all know Ada use
>exists - what's the point.
>
You'd be amazed at the number of people who think that Ada is exclusively
a US DoD toy. The point for net readers, and their friends, and their
friends' friends, is that there are a number of documented projects
beyond the DoD in organizations that have chosen Ada. This knowledge,
and the growing use of Ada as a serious educational language, is intended
to strengthen the hand of those whose supervisors or colleagues resist
Ada because "nobody but DoD uses it." I'm doing what I can to create a
positive, rather than a negative, self-fulfilling prophecy.

I re-post the list whenever there are substantial changes.

Mike Feldman

Marketing Ada

[Mark A. Breland]

In article 18550@seas.gwu.edu, mfeldman@seas.gwu.edu (Michael Feldman) writes:
>
>You'd be amazed at the number of people who think that Ada is exclusively
>a US DoD toy. The point for net readers, and their friends, and their
>friends' friends, is that there are a number of documented projects
>beyond the DoD in organizations that have chosen Ada. This knowledge,
>and the growing use of Ada as a serious educational language, is intended
>to strengthen the hand of those whose supervisors or colleagues resist
>Ada because "nobody but DoD uses it." I'm doing what I can to create a
>positive, rather than a negative, self-fulfilling prophecy.

An incredible amount of energy has been expended on c.l.a indicting users
and mandators of Ada for failing to champion the language to a broader
compputing audience.  Being a diehard pragmatist, I always wondered why
those with the most to gain (e.g., compiler vendors) did not wave the flag
and mount the charge to lead this proselytizing effort.  So when the chance
came recently to gain some insight, I unembarrassedly asked many somewhat
obnoxious questions of the senior Products VP for one of the top 5 Ada
compiler vendors.

The most telling question was:  "Why don't you, the Company, seek to market
Ada as a language; thereby expanding your customer base, generating more
revenue, and strategically securing the Company's position within the
marketplace?"

The answer: "We don't have the marketing personnel resources for that; we
already have a strong niche within the existing market; the target user for
Ada is already aware of Ada's benefits (doesn't need to be sold); the target
user consists of the complex, embedded, _large_ system community (i.e.,
volume of compilers sold is meaningless); we don't know how to market the
merits of Ada to the global community (and don't want to); and (to be
expected) insert_C/C++_flame_here."

Well, that part of me that wears the little green accountant's visor hat
was utterly dumbfounded.  But even worse, I strongly suspect that the
Company mentioned above is not alone.  Rather, I venture to say that ALL
the major Ada compiler vendors have adopted the same philosophy.  In essence,
they feel they have a captive customer base with which they are quite content
to continue conducting business with.  They consider themselves busy enough
meeting the concerns and desires of _that_ customer base without introducing
the complexity of a more eclectic user mix.  To their credit, they are
successful in their innovations as requested by existing customers, they just
don't care to raise their horizons any further.

So...unless a company with an attitude like Borland shows up on the scene,
don't expect to see *any* Ada marketing hype directed at the masses.

---
Mark A. Breland - Microelectronics and Computer Technology Corporation (MCC)
Ada Fault Tolerance                               | voice:    (512) 338-3509
3500 West Balcones Center Drive                   | FAX:      (512) 338-3900
Austin, Texas 78759-6509   USA                    | internet: breland@mcc.com

Re: Mike Feldman, meet Archie

[Gregory Aharonian]

>I agree that there is room for a serious Ada study, but in the list
>Greg mentions, the *only* thing that counts is "contacting software
>development companies."  The reason is that 'real developers' are too
>busy doing 'real work' to write tech reports, and they generally do
>not place their code in the public domain.  Studying Archie and WAIS


Dave,
	I should have been more specific about the technical reports,
for they are important to analyze for the following reasons.  There is
much software that comes out of the DoD that appears as listings in
technical reports available from DTIC/NTIS.  For example, about a year
ago I came across a technical report for cruise missile trajectories
over irregular terrains, which contained either Fortran or C code  (a
report a few foreign agencies snapped up).
  	These reports are a good measure of what goes on inside the
DoD research and development world, and the DoD academic world.  It
measures how people in the Mandated world who have a choice of language
for these smaller projects choose languages.  For example, there is a
constant stream of Master's thesis available from the Naval Postgraduate
School and Air Force Wright Patterson Graduate School, many of which have
excellent source code in them.  For example, a few years ago I was able
to snag a nice recursive descent compiler for Ada written in Ada.
	Analysis of these reports shows that Ada is making inroads into
these defense facilities, but at a rate indicating that it is just
another language, as opposed to something that the DoD is all out to
get accepted.  A classic case was some tank battlefield simulation code
written in Fortran available from the Ballistic Research Lab.  I had the
report with the source code listed, but didn't feel like typing it in.
I called up the guy and asked for the code, which he refused to give to
me for some mumbling reason, even though I already had the listing.
I then tried plan B, saying that I was interested in translating the code
to Ada, and would swap my Ada translation for a diskette of the Fortran
source code.  At this point, he said that if could get someone at the
Ballistic Research Lab to buy him an Ada compiler, he would have done it
himself and didn't need me, but no one wanted to buy him an Ada compiler.
After I stopped laughing, I realized he wasn't going to release the code
and said goodbye.

    Trust me, this is not an isolated incident depicting DoD apathy to
Ada acceptance and the difficulties of trying to do anything with existing
DoD software.

    I could gone for years about bullshit like this throughout the DoD
with regards to Ada unhappiness and hostility to software reuse.  It's a
shame that no one at AJPO or anywhere else is interested in the truth.

    Anyways, analysis of DoD technical reports available publicly
(I have access only to the ADA reports, and not anything classified ADB or
higher) will reveal much about Ada attitudes inside the DoD, as well as
leading to the discovery of tons of great software that is available.
Too bad no one is interested about all of this great software, or Ada
attitudes inside the DoD (of which I think, based on the many not-for
circulation email messages I get, that the Air Force is the most unhappy
having Ada "forced" on them).

Greg Aharonian
Source Translation & Optimization
617-489-3727  (my phone number, not my Social Security number)
-- 
**************************************************************************
Greg Aharonian
Source Translation & Optimiztion
P.O. Box 404, Belmont, MA 02178

Re: Marketing Ada

[Gregory Aharonian]

Mark Breland concludes:

>So...unless a company with an attitude like Borland shows up on the scene,
>don't expect to see *any* Ada marketing hype directed at the masses.

   Unfortunately, things are worse than this, since a fair number of DoD
software policies implicitly assume certain levels of Ada acceptance in
the general marketplace (to provide the DoD with the programmers, tools
and libraries) to meet DoD goals.  With the STANFINS fiasco, having 
someone strongly publicly push for Ada becomes even more important so
that Ada is accepted enough to have the marketplace provide the supply
of programmers, libraries and tools needed to meet DoD software goals.

   Thus it is not just sad that the Ada vendors (as well as the DoD and
contractors like the STARS people) have dropped the Ada marketing ball.
If it gets any worse, it probably will become a mild threat to national
security, as it becomes more difficult for the DoD to meet its software
needs on a diminished budget.

    However, as much of the grapevine that I monitor suspects, there is
a fair chance within the next few years that the DoD will drop the Ada
mandate as unworkable.  When even the outrageously biased and yes-man
Mosemann studies say that Ada currently is only marginally more economical
than C/C++ (read the TRW) section, with C++ catching up, the reality is
probably in C++'s favor, which the generals eventually will be unable to
ignore.

J'accuse.

Greg Aharonian
Source Translation & Optimization
-- 
**************************************************************************
Greg Aharonian
Source Translation & Optimiztion
P.O. Box 404, Belmont, MA 02178

Re: Mike Feldman, meet Archie

[agate!howland.reston.ans.net!paladin.american.edu!darwin.sura.net!seas.gw]

In article <EMERY.93Mar4145446@goldfinger.mitre.org> emery@goldfinger.mitre.org
 (David Emery) writes:
>
[good stuff deleted]

>On the other hand, as has been said many times, choice of language is
>*not* generally a technical decision.  The fact that Ada was developed
>by the DOD tends to prejudice it in the eyes of many who believe that
>anything having to do with the military is inherently evil.  This is
>particularly true in academic settings...
>
This is increasingly seen to be a canard. I have met many hundreds of
academics in the last few years as an active Ada teacher and SIGAda
education co-chair. I hear _over and over_ that the problems with Ada
in recent years in breaking into academia are mostly _not_ political-
correctness problems, but (in no particular order)

- ignorance about Ada's accomplishments and possibilities;
- perceived tremendous cost of compilers;
- lack of curriculum-oriented textbooks.

Various outreach efforts, especially the November 92 CACM issue and
the SIGAda outreach to places like the Computer Science Conference are
setting them straight about the first 2 issues - most folks realize now
that academic prices are affordable enough, especially from academia-
friendly companies ike Meridian and (since 1991) Alsys.

Ada/Ed is making a BIG impact here. Next week I will post a list of all
the schools to which Ada/Ed copies (for DOS and Mac) were given at this
year's CSC last month. You'll see what I mean. Stay tuned.

There are now 7 freshman-level texts and a couple dozen more oriented
specifically to undergrad courses. As teachers find out about these
(and book publishers - unlike Ada vendors - really do know how to
advertise to reach teachers) they are looking upon Ada much more
favorably. 

With all due respect, Dave, I've done my homework on this and i've got
my facts straight. Please do not perpetuate the myth of idelogical
opposition to Ada in the universities. There is undoubtedly a small
group of academics for which this is true, but most thinking people
realize that both X and Berkeley Unix were also funded by DoD, so
resisting Ada on that basis is foolish.

I'm not going to post my "serious Ada schools" list again until there
are significant changes to it - send e-mail if you want one. I will,
on thye other hand, post an updated book list next week.

Cheers -

Mike Feldman

Mike Feldman, meet Archie

[Colin James 0621]

Gregory Aharonian's lists from Archie (despite case) are of only limited
value because the actual sites are not described.  For example,
"stanford.edu" is pretty self-explanatory;  but "unc.edu" is not (probably
means University of North Carolina, but could mean University of Northern
Colorado as well).

Colin James III
Bureau of Land Management, DoI
Denver Service Center
SC-342D, Bldg 50
Denver, CO  80225
(303) 236 - 5897

Re: Mike Feldman, meet Archie

[Mark Priestley]

In article <1993Mar6.033256.18621@seas.gwu.edu> mfeldman@seas.gwu.edu (Michael Feldman) writes:

   This is increasingly seen to be a canard. I have met many hundreds of
   academics in the last few years as an active Ada teacher and SIGAda
   education co-chair. I hear _over and over_ that the problems with Ada
   in recent years in breaking into academia are mostly _not_ political-
   correctness problems, but (in no particular order)

   - ignorance about Ada's accomplishments and possibilities;
   - perceived tremendous cost of compilers;
   - lack of curriculum-oriented textbooks.

There is another, more fundamental reason in my opinion: Ada is widely regarded
as a dead language, both by students and many faculty members, and as a result,
although the technical merits of the language might be well-understood,
no-one's prepared to make the significant investment that changing to Ada would
represent.  By "dead language" I mean an ill-assorted collection of
observations, including: "there are very few jobs in Ada"; "why don't Borland
have an Ada compiler?"; "why is Ada introducing tagged types, instead ofjoining
the OO mainstream?" As a colleague said: "it's like teaching Latin instead of
French, on the grounds that Latin's got more grammmar".

-- 
Mark Priestley      	    	    Email:  	M.Priestley@uk.ac.westminster
School of Computer Science ...
University of Westminster
115 New Cavendish Street    	    Telephone: 	+44 (0)71-911 5000 ext. 3653

Re: Mike Feldman, meet Archie

[Michael Feldman]

In article <1993Mar8.132419.21952@westminster.ac.uk> priestm@westminster.ac.uk (Mark Priestley) writes:
>
>There is another, more fundamental reason in my opinion: Ada is widely regarded
>as a dead language, both by students and many faculty members, and as a result,
>although the technical merits of the language might be well-understood,
>no-one's prepared to make the significant investment that changing to Ada would
>represent.  By "dead language" I mean an ill-assorted collection of
>observations, including: "there are very few jobs in Ada"; "why don't Borland
>have an Ada compiler?"; "why is Ada introducing tagged types, instead ofjoining
>the OO mainstream?" As a colleague said: "it's like teaching Latin instead of
>French, on the grounds that Latin's got more grammmar".
>
Well, you make some good points. I suggest, though, that you ask your friends
at the following UK universities why they don't think Ada is dead. In all
these schools, Ada is being taught as the entry-level language and, as
far as I can tell, propagated through the curriculum. Most of these places,
by the way, have adopted this "dead language" recently, after the C++
craze got started, so they're not just hanging onto something out
of sheer inertia:

Cranfield Institute of Technology, United Kingdom
Portsmouth Polytechnic, United Kingdom
University of Aston, United Kingdom
University of Bradford, United Kingdom
University of Lancaster, United Kingdom
University of Liverpool, United Kingdom
University of Paisley, United Kingdom
University of Stafford, United Kingdom
University of Wales, Aberystwyth, United Kingdom
University of York, United Kingdom

As far as I can tell, there is a distinct trend _toward_ Ada in the UK.
(Undoubtedly there are other trends away from Pascal too.)

Two new first-year texts have just appeared from UK authors: one is by
Culwin and I don't recall the author of the other. Clearly these authors,
and their publishers, seem to have the heretical notion that Ada is alive :-)

I believe, as do many other teachers, that one's first language influences
one's thinking forever. This holds for natural as well as computer languages.
Ada should certainly not be the only one learned by students, but many of
us believe it should be the first. Even in the UK, apparently...

Let's talk a bit about this "investment" to move to Ada. Are you referring
to universities' perceived investment in compilers? Have you checked the
prices lately? Are you referring to mental investment? Are you claiming
that the mental investment to move from, say, Pascal, to ML or C++ is
lower? I find that difficult to believe.

As far as Ada's "death" is concerned, we'll have to see where it is in
five years or so. Obviously nobody has a pure, clear crystal ball. But
we can all make predictions. Mine is that Ada will, over the long run,
be seen to have "staying power" and may outlast some of the more faddish
things as people become disillusioned with the instability of the fads.
Ada's stability and conservative "waterfall model" design may be thought
of as stodgy by many of us impatient computer tekkies, but I'll stick 
out my neck and speculate that the conservativeness and accompanying
portability will be eventually seen as a distinct advantage.

Cheers all -

Mike Feldman

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Michael B. Feldman
co-chair, SIGAda Education Committee

Professor, Dept. of Electrical Engineering and Computer Science
School of Engineering and Applied Science
The George Washington University
Washington, DC 20052 USA
(202) 994-5253 (voice)
(202) 994-5296 (fax)
mfeldman@seas.gwu.edu (Internet)

"The most important thing is to be sincere, 
and once you've learned how to fake that, you've got it made." 
-- old show-business adage
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: Marketing Ada

[Thomas N Erickson]

breland@mcc.com (Mark A. Breland) writes:


>Well, that part of me that wears the little green accountant's visor hat
>was utterly dumbfounded.  But even worse, I strongly suspect that the
>Company mentioned above is not alone.  Rather, I venture to say that ALL
>the major Ada compiler vendors have adopted the same philosophy.  In essence,
>they feel they have a captive customer base with which they are quite content
>to continue conducting business with.  They consider themselves busy enough
>meeting the concerns and desires of _that_ customer base without introducing
>the complexity of a more eclectic user mix.  To their credit, they are
>successful in their innovations as requested by existing customers, they just
>don't care to raise their horizons any further.


Don't count Alsys in the above.  We are positive about the future of Ada
outside of defense and are doing things about it.  The efforts are
extremely targetted at this time, but next year (94) should see a much
broader emphasis.  

Tom Erickson
Group Vice-President, Marketing
Alsys

-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tom Erickson					Alsys
tne@world.std.com				67 South Bedford Street
						Burlington, MA 01803

Re: Marketing Ada

[Michael Feldman]

In article <C3LrA2.7zB@world.std.com> tne@world.std.com (Thomas N Erickson) writes:

[stuff deleted]
>
>Don't count Alsys in the above.  We are positive about the future of Ada
>outside of defense and are doing things about it.  The efforts are
>extremely targetted at this time, but next year (94) should see a much
>broader emphasis.  
>
Ummm - excuse me for being skeptical, Tom. I've been around Ada for 10
years (actually more, but let's start from 1815A's adoption). What I've
heard EVERY year from all the vendors I've spoken to (and that's most
of the ones whose names we'd all recognize) is "well, that's great but
we really don't have the budget to do that big marketing push just now,
so you'll have to wait till next year." After 10 "next year's", I'm still
waiting for the magical next year. Somehow I don't think it would be
prudent for me to hold my breath...

Reminds me of a song I used to hear on the radio as a kid:

"Manana, manana, manana is soon enough for me." (Sorry, I couldn't
put tildes on the first n's - it's Spanish for "tomorrow", right?)

'Nuff said.

Mike Feldman
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Michael B. Feldman
co-chair, SIGAda Education Committee

Professor, Dept. of Electrical Engineering and Computer Science
School of Engineering and Applied Science
The George Washington University
Washington, DC 20052 USA
(202) 994-5253 (voice)
(202) 994-5296 (fax)
mfeldman@seas.gwu.edu (Internet)

"The most important thing is to be sincere, 
and once you've learned how to fake that, you've got it made." 
-- old show-business adage
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: Mike Feldman, meet Archie

[Mark Priestley]

In article <1993Mar8.152831.6407@seas.gwu.edu> mfeldman@seas.gwu.edu (Michael Feldman) writes:

>In article <1993Mar8.132419.21952@westminster.ac.uk> priestm@westminster.ac.uk (Mark Priestley) writes:
>>
>>There is another, more fundamental reason in my opinion: Ada is widely regarded
>>as a dead language, both by students and many faculty members, and as a result,
>>although the technical merits of the language might be well-understood,
>>no-one's prepared to make the significant investment that changing to Ada would
>>represent.  By "dead language" I mean an ill-assorted collection of
>>observations, including: "there are very few jobs in Ada"; "why don't Borland
>>have an Ada compiler?"; "why is Ada introducing tagged types, instead ofjoining
>>the OO mainstream?" As a colleague said: "it's like teaching Latin instead of
>>French, on the grounds that Latin's got more grammmar".

>Well, you make some good points. I suggest, though, that you ask your friends
>at the following UK universities why they don't think Ada is dead. In all

> [stuff about takeup of Ada in the UK omitted]

Don't get me wrong - I'm basically on the side of the angels here, and I know
about the spread of Ada in the UK.  We currently teach Ada as a second-year
option for students specialising in Software Engineering: I occasionally moot
the possibility of switching to Ada as a first language (in place of Modula-2)
and the argument I have most difficulty confronting is the "dead language"
argument. It basically has two components:

    * Ada's missed the boat on object orientation.
    * Ada's too big, and hasn't caught on (just like Algol 68, for example)

Now I disagree about 80% with both of these assertions - but I find them very
difficult to counter.  The people who hold these opinions just aren't
sufficiently impressed by Ada's good points, I'm afraid (maybe I'm no good at
arguing :-)

>I believe, as do many other teachers, that one's first language influences
>one's thinking forever. This holds for natural as well as computer languages.
>Ada should certainly not be the only one learned by students, but many of
>us believe it should be the first. Even in the UK, apparently...

I agree wholeheartedly with all this, except that I waver on whether the
benefits of switching from Modula-2 to Ada outweigh the costs ...

>Let's talk a bit about this "investment" to move to Ada. Are you referring
>to universities' perceived investment in compilers? Have you checked the
>prices lately? Are you referring to mental investment? Are you claiming
>that the mental investment to move from, say, Pascal, to ML or C++ is
>lower? I find that difficult to believe.

Compiler prices are certainly an issue: we want to use a Unix network, not PCs,
for most of our programming teaching, and our Ada compiler supplier recently
shocked us with the suggestion that we should pay a lot more than we currently
are!  We're currently looking around: all recommendations gratefully received!

Mental investment in moving to Ada certainly is significant, though less than
moving to ML or C++ (heaven forfend!) would be.

Most significant is the knock-on effect on the resources required for other
courses: a lot of courses use the first language simply as a tool, and in many
cases rely on particular libraries, or interfaces being available.  If we were
to switch to Ada, we'd need to find equivalents for all these.  I'm not saying
it couldn't be done, but it's a *lot* of work.

>As far as Ada's "death" is concerned, we'll have to see where it is in
>five years or so. Obviously nobody has a pure, clear crystal ball. But
>we can all make predictions. Mine is that Ada will, over the long run,
>be seen to have "staying power" and may outlast some of the more faddish
>things as people become disillusioned with the instability of the fads.
>Ada's stability and conservative "waterfall model" design may be thought
>of as stodgy by many of us impatient computer tekkies, but I'll stick 
>out my neck and speculate that the conservativeness and accompanying
>portability will be eventually seen as a distinct advantage.

Well, I hope you're right, but Ada's superiority to competing languages was
IMHO much clearer 10 years ago, and for whatever reasons, it hasn't exactly
swept the floor with them since then.

>Cheers all -

>Mike Feldman

Cheers

Mark Priestley

-- 
Mark Priestley      	    	    Email:  	M.Priestley@uk.ac.westminster
School of Computer Science ...
University of Westminster
115 New Cavendish Street    	    Telephone: 	+44 (0)71-911 5000 ext. 3653

Re: Marketing Ada

[Michael Feldman]

In article <1993Mar9.042400.2812@seas.gwu.edu> mfeldman@seas.gwu.edu (Michael Feldman) writes:
>In article <C3LrA2.7zB@world.std.com> tne@world.std.com (Thomas N Erickson) writes:
>
>[stuff deleted]
>>
>>Don't count Alsys in the above.  We are positive about the future of Ada
>>outside of defense and are doing things about it.  The efforts are
>>extremely targetted at this time, but next year (94) should see a much
>>broader emphasis.  
>>
>Ummm - excuse me for being skeptical, Tom. I've been around Ada for 10
>years (actually more, but let's start from 1815A's adoption). What I've
>heard EVERY year from all the vendors I've spoken to (and that's most
>of the ones whose names we'd all recognize) is "well, that's great but
>we really don't have the budget to do that big marketing push just now,
>so you'll have to wait till next year." After 10 "next year's", I'm still
>waiting for the magical next year. Somehow I don't think it would be
>prudent for me to hold my breath...
>
[stuff deleted]

Colleagues:

I owe you all an apology.

It has come to my attention through private correspondence that these
comments were open to serious misinterpretation as a direct slur 
on Alsys or, worse, on Tom. Au contraire, Tom is one of the few Ada-
industry officials who reads and responds to the net on a regular basis.
It's apparent that he is doing his best to keep his ear to the ground
and respond informatively where doing so is pertinent. In this he
deserves encouragement.

And Alsys has gone, in about 18 months' time, from perhaps the least 
education-friendly vendor to one of the most friendly. Their academic
pricing (what they call the LEAP program) is aggressive and affordable,
and their people are generally friendly and helpful, in my recent
experience. The number of Alsys entries in the "Who's Using Ada
Report" demonstrates both their growing non-defense customer base
and their willingness to have this publicized.

My skepticism is generic and was aimed at the industry as a whole, not
at Alsys in particular. We have heard ten years' worth of grand plans
for building a bigger Ada market. Indeed, the fast-growing list of non-
defense projects suggests that some of these plans may be bearing fruit.
I certainly hope so! Maybe it'll be different this time.

I remain skeptical about whether the industry in general really knows
how to build markets. I fear that the Ada vendors may be all too typical
of defense companies, which even as we speak are tearing their hair out
trying to figure out how to cope in the post-Cold War world (see today's
news for some Clinton-administration discussion of this matter). The
Ada companies perceived their market to be mainly DoD-oriented and 
captive and, in their myopia, missed the C++ wave coming and never
built up marketing and sales expertise to break Ada loose from its
defense origins and give it a real life of its own. 

There are signs of change, but - without slamming any one company 
or individual - I think our skepticism is well-founded and even
constructive. 

Today's buzzword is "dual-use technology" - technology useful for both
defense and non-defense applications. Ada is a _programming language_ and
a damn good one, and as such is - without changing a byte of a compiler
or a letter of the LRM - dual-use technology. My hope is that all the
Ada companies will realize what a gem they've got, and find the imagination
and the funds to really let the world know. I think they can do it.

Alsys, Tom, I apologize for writing what seemed to be an ad hominem slam.
I've tried very hard not to write such stuff to the net, and to be a voice
of reason here. I blew this one, I guess. 

My generic skepticism still stands. I would be delighted to be proved wrong!

Cheers all -

Mike Feldman
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Michael B. Feldman
co-chair, SIGAda Education Committee

Professor, Dept. of Electrical Engineering and Computer Science
School of Engineering and Applied Science
The George Washington University
Washington, DC 20052 USA
(202) 994-5253 (voice)
(202) 994-5296 (fax)
mfeldman@seas.gwu.edu (Internet)

"The most important thing is to be sincere, 
and once you've learned how to fake that, you've got it made." 
-- old show-business adage
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: Marketing Ada

[Mark A. Breland]

In article 13805@seas.gwu.edu, mfeldman@seas.gwu.edu (Michael Feldman) writes:
>
>I remain skeptical about whether the industry in general really knows
>how to build markets. I fear that the Ada vendors may be all too typical
>of defense companies, which even as we speak are tearing their hair out
>trying to figure out how to cope in the post-Cold War world (see today's
>news for some Clinton-administration discussion of this matter). The
>Ada companies perceived their market to be mainly DoD-oriented and 
>captive and, in their myopia, missed the C++ wave coming and never
>built up marketing and sales expertise to break Ada loose from its
>defense origins and give it a real life of its own. 

To carry your analogy further, Mike, several vendors have elected to jump
on the new C++ bandwagon rather than propel Ada forward on its own merits.
So what we'll soon see are vendors with product lines supporting Ada, C,
AND C++.  This reactive response is typical of defense contractors (not all
mind you), who tend to jump with the latest technology, leaving perfectly
good products behind.  I fear such an environment will cause Ada to languish
in a pitiful pool of ignominy.

>There are signs of change, but - without slamming any one company 
>or individual - I think our skepticism is well-founded and even
>constructive. 

How true.

---
Mark A. Breland - Microelectronics and Computer Technology Corporation (MCC)
Ada Fault Tolerance                               | voice:    (512) 338-3509
3500 West Balcones Center Drive                   | FAX:      (512) 338-3900
Austin, Texas 78759-6509   USA                    | internet: breland@mcc.com

Re: Mike Feldman, meet Archie

[mjl-b]

In article <1993Mar9.112215.3599@westminster.ac.uk> priestm@westminster.ac.uk (Mark Priestley) writes:
>
>Compiler prices are certainly an issue: we want to use a Unix network, not PCs,
>for most of our programming teaching, and our Ada compiler supplier recently
>shocked us with the suggestion that we should pay a lot more than we currently
>are!  We're currently looking around: all recommendations gratefully received!

I believe Alsys still has a policy of 90% educational discount -- they're
contactable at:

Patridge House
Newton Road
Henley-on-Thames
Oxon
RG9 1EN

(0491 579090)


>Mark Priestley
>
>-- 
>Mark Priestley      	    	    Email:  	M.Priestley@uk.ac.westminster
>School of Computer Science ...
>University of Westminster
>115 New Cavendish Street    	    Telephone: 	+44 (0)71-911 5000 ext. 3653

Mat

(Yes, I am connected with Alsys -- they're my degree sponsors).

| Mathew Lodge             | "What's your name, boy?" "Kate." "Isn't that |
| mjl-b@minster.york.ac.uk |  a bit of a girl's name?" "It's short for... |
| University of York, UK   |  Bob." -- Blackadder II                      |

Re: Mike Feldman, meet Archie

[timothy shimeall]

Your methodology is in serious trouble as a metric for Ada use.
It finds (as might be expected) anonymously-available Ada translators
(Ada-Ed) and language-specific bindings (Ada-Motif, Ada-X).  

But Many Ada-related tools don't have "Ada" as part of their name.
Consider:
    Anna (from Stanford)
    AFLEX/AYACC (from UC Irvine)
    ARCTURUS (from UC Irvine -- but not by anonymous ftp)
    SPEC (from NPS -- but not by anonymous ftp)
    etc.

If Archie was even as thorough as a "man -k" under unix, you might
have located these.  Since instead it is closer to a unix "find" call
you didn't have a chance.

Ask yourself, how much C usage would your methodology have located?
(Hint: it would miss "lint", "prof", "make", etc.)  I'd conjecture that your
results would have been comparable to the results of your Ada query.
					Tim

Re: Marketing Ada

[Michael Feldman]

In article <1993Mar12.140219.5705@mcc.com> breland@mcc.com writes:

[stuff deleted]
>
>To carry your analogy further, Mike, several vendors have elected to jump
>on the new C++ bandwagon rather than propel Ada forward on its own merits.
>So what we'll soon see are vendors with product lines supporting Ada, C,
>AND C++.  This reactive response is typical of defense contractors (not all
>mind you), who tend to jump with the latest technology, leaving perfectly
>good products behind.  I fear such an environment will cause Ada to languish
>in a pitiful pool of ignominy.

Well, don't give up hope yet. So far, the vendors aren't really abandoning
Ada, even if they are diversifying into C++, and most of them are. From the
myopic business perspective we've been discussing here, it only makes good
sense for them to go where the bucks are, especially if (as in Meridian's
CASE case), they are just selling a tool they've licensed from somewhere
else and didn't put resources into.

I've used another imprefect analogy about the Mandate: it's protectionism
and can be seen as analogous to Detroit's demand for protection from the
Yellow Peril. Mr. Iacocca's company (and the others too, but he's he most
vocally hypocritical) sells tremendous numbers of Asian cars, and US
cars with Asian engines, even while he screams for protection. Assuming
the Ada industry had something to do with the call for the Mandate (and I
don't really know whether they did, but I guess it's a safe assumption),
they wanted Congressional protection for Ada even while they diversify into
C++. If the Mandate was written with _no_ industry prodding, I'll stand
corrected.
>
>>There are signs of change, but - without slamming any one company 
>>or individual - I think our skepticism is well-founded and even
>>constructive. 
>
>How true.
>
Glad you agree. Let's keep letting them know, publicly and privately, our
thoughts on this.

Mike Feldman