Re: Why soldiers are afraid of Ada

Re: Why soldiers are afraid of Ada

[John Cobarruvias]

In article <SRCTRAN.93Jul7093257@world.std.com> srctran@world.std.com
(Gregory Aharonian) writes:
>
>   The July 7, 1993 issue of the Boston Globe had an article about
worries
>and anger inside the military under President Clinton.  One statement has
a
>major bearing on Ada.
>
>		"A 1990 survey by the Army Research Institute
>		found that 25 percent to 33 percent of service
>		personnel feared they would not be able to find
>		work in the civilian sector if necessaary, and
>		expressed concerns about their long term
>		prospects inside the army.
>		By 1992, the anxiety rate had almost doubled,
>		with 62 percent of enlisted soldiers and 43 percent
>		of officers questioned saying they were very
>		worried about their long-term prospects for
>		their military careers."  [page 14]
>
>And what worried these people?  Currently there are 50 to 100 times more
>private sector C/C++ jobs than there are Ada jobs, as any sampling of
>help wanted ads in metropolitan newspapers will reveal.  Thus there is
not
>much of a market for Ada skills, especially when companies are inundated
>with resumes from many highly qualified applicants with the exact
language
>skills they request in the ads, reducing chances of soldiers arguing
"Haven't
>used C/C++, but Ada is better and I am a quick learner".

Another example of logic on an acid trip. I can just see all the Desert
Storm Grunts trained in the use of an M16, Chemical warfare protection
use, offesive manuvers adapted to the desert, combat leadership skills,
XM1 tank use and maintenance, really concerned about how they will fit
into the software market place once they get out. Yep. Greg, you are once
again ate some bad mushrooms.

The article above has nothing to do with Ada, C, C++, V--, or any other
language you approve, disapprove, or which has screwed you out of any
future business. Sour Grapes have struck again. Try Krogers. 

And maybe you wonder why your efforts are being discounted?

>
>	Given these worries of soldiers, and marketplace job realities,
>it is quite easy to see why the Ada Mandate is being ignored so much
inside
>the DoD.  Soldiers are optimizing their long term prospects at little
cost
>to their short term careers, comforted by the contradictory statements
>coming out of the Pentagon brass about Ada.
>
>-- 
>**************************************************************************

> Greg Aharonian
> Source Translation & Optimization
> P.O. Box 404, Belmont, MA 02178
>




*************************************************************
John R. Cobarruvias, Texas A&M Class of '78, 
NASA Johnson Space Center Houston Tx.
(713)483-9357

"Your pain will be legendary" (Hellraiser I)
"And to think..................I hesitated" (Hellraiser II)
"These pins are killing me!" (Pinhead in Hellraiser IV)
*************************************************************

Why soldiers are afraid of Ada

[Gregory Aharonian]

   The July 7, 1993 issue of the Boston Globe had an article about worries
and anger inside the military under President Clinton.  One statement has a
major bearing on Ada.

		"A 1990 survey by the Army Research Institute
		found that 25 percent to 33 percent of service
		personnel feared they would not be able to find
		work in the civilian sector if necessaary, and
		expressed concerns about their long term
		prospects inside the army.
		By 1992, the anxiety rate had almost doubled,
		with 62 percent of enlisted soldiers and 43 percent
		of officers questioned saying they were very
		worried about their long-term prospects for
		their military careers."  [page 14]

And what worried these people?  Currently there are 50 to 100 times more
private sector C/C++ jobs than there are Ada jobs, as any sampling of
help wanted ads in metropolitan newspapers will reveal.  Thus there is not
much of a market for Ada skills, especially when companies are inundated
with resumes from many highly qualified applicants with the exact language
skills they request in the ads, reducing chances of soldiers arguing "Haven't
used C/C++, but Ada is better and I am a quick learner".

	Given these worries of soldiers, and marketplace job realities,
it is quite easy to see why the Ada Mandate is being ignored so much inside
the DoD.  Soldiers are optimizing their long term prospects at little cost
to their short term careers, comforted by the contradictory statements
coming out of the Pentagon brass about Ada.

-- 
**************************************************************************
 Greg Aharonian
 Source Translation & Optimization
 P.O. Box 404, Belmont, MA 02178

Re: Why soldiers are afraid of Ada

[agate!howland.reston.ans.net!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!The-Star.honeywell.com!]

In article <SRCTRAN.93Jul7093257@world.std.com> srctran@world.std.com (Gregory 
Aharonian) writes:
>
>   The July 7, 1993 issue of the Boston Globe had an article about worries
>and anger inside the military under President Clinton.  One statement has a
>major bearing on Ada.

>		"A 1990 survey by the Army Research Institute
>		found that 25 percent to 33 percent of service
>		personnel feared they would not be able to find
>		work in the civilian sector if necessaary, and
>		expressed concerns about their long term
>		prospects inside the army.
>		By 1992, the anxiety rate had almost doubled,
>		with 62 percent of enlisted soldiers and 43 percent
>		of officers questioned saying they were very
>		worried about their long-term prospects for
>		their military careers."  [page 14]
>

Oh, Greg, what on earth does this have to do with Ada? What percentage
of Army personnel do you think have any contact with Ada? 

>	Given these worries of soldiers, and marketplace job realities,
>it is quite easy to see why the Ada Mandate is being ignored so much inside
>the DoD.  Soldiers are optimizing their long term prospects at little cost
>to their short term careers, comforted by the contradictory statements
>coming out of the Pentagon brass about Ada.

I can't believe you think that the average grunt^H^H^H^H^Hsoldier
knows, cares, or can do anything about Ada. It is far more likely
that the average tank driver, artillery officer, chem warfare
specialist, and/or basic one-each-issue infantryman is worried about
what use the civilian job market has for their specialized killing
skills. You really have reached on this one, Greg. You seem to be
in need of a rest.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
| Mark Shanks                          |           
| Principal Engineer                   |    All opinions mine,  
| 777 Displays (Yeah, we use Ada)      |        of course.
| shanks@saifr00.cfsat.honeywell.com   |          
| "We have such sights to show you..." |    USAFA 76        
-------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: Why soldiers are afraid of Ada

[cis.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!caen!hellgate.utah.edu!fco]

In article <1993Jul7.141538.23375@aio.jsc.nasa.gov> Cobarruvias@asd2.jsc.nasa.g
ov (John Cobarruvias) writes:
>In article <SRCTRAN.93Jul7093257@world.std.com> srctran@world.std.com
>(Gregory Aharonian) writes:
>>
>>   The July 7, 1993 issue of the Boston Globe had an article about
>worries
>>and anger inside the military under President Clinton.  One statement has
>a
>>major bearing on Ada.
>>
>>		"A 1990 survey by the Army Research Institute
>>		found that 25 percent to 33 percent of service
>>		personnel feared they would not be able to find
>>		work in the civilian sector if necessaary, and
>>		expressed concerns about their long term
>>		prospects inside the army.
>>		By 1992, the anxiety rate had almost doubled,
>>		with 62 percent of enlisted soldiers and 43 percent
>>		of officers questioned saying they were very
>>		worried about their long-term prospects for
>>		their military careers."  [page 14]
>>
>>And what worried these people?  Currently there are 50 to 100 times more
>>private sector C/C++ jobs than there are Ada jobs, as any sampling of
>>help wanted ads in metropolitan newspapers will reveal.  Thus there is
>not
>>much of a market for Ada skills, especially when companies are inundated
>>with resumes from many highly qualified applicants with the exact
>language
>>skills they request in the ads, reducing chances of soldiers arguing
>"Haven't
>>used C/C++, but Ada is better and I am a quick learner".
>
>Another example of logic on an acid trip. I can just see all the Desert
>Storm Grunts trained in the use of an M16, Chemical warfare protection
>use, offesive manuvers adapted to the desert, combat leadership skills,
>XM1 tank use and maintenance, really concerned about how they will fit
>into the software market place once they get out. Yep. Greg, you are once
>again ate some bad mushrooms.

In defense of Greg, who will probably never win a Mr. Congeniality award
but who IMHO does occasionally raise some good points: Officers must have
college degrees and at least in the Air Force, which I am familiar with,
many of them have engineering or computer science degrees.  These people
fit Greg's description quite well.

Re: Why soldiers are afraid of Ada

[cis.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!darwin.sura.net!dtix.dt.navy.mil!r]

Just to burst a bubble or two, but most research and development
is done by civilians, not people in uniform.  Least that's what
i have seen.  I have been working at a military research lab for
three years, and the only military people i have worked with have
been liason types.

brad

Re: Why soldiers are afraid of Ada

[cis.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!howland.]

There seems to be no shortage of jobs for people who know Ada -- that's not
to say that they use Ada when they get hired, but knowing it and having
lots of experience in it seems to be counted as a plus.  I speak from the
experiences of my two most recent MS students who both appear to have been
snapped up by employers, one in Texas, the other in the south-bay area.

Judging by the discussions I had over the phone with their employers, they
were viewing Ada experience as having essentially the same impact as
object-oriented programming experience -- Ada is not, strictly, object
oriented, but in large projects, the Ada package and private type
mechanisms have a similar impact on the design process.

					Doug Jones
					jones@cs.uiowa.edu

Re: Why soldiers are afraid of Ada

[agate!howland.reston.ans.net!usc!cs.utexas.edu!csc.ti.com!tilde.csc.ti.co]

In <1993Jul7.160845.20769@fcom.cc.utah.edu> tcrook@u.cc.utah.edu (Tom Crook) wr
ites:

>In article <1993Jul7.141538.23375@aio.jsc.nasa.gov> Cobarruvias@asd2.jsc.nasa.
gov (John Cobarruvias) writes:

>>Another example of logic on an acid trip. I can just see all the Desert
>>Storm Grunts trained in the use of an M16, Chemical warfare protection
>>use, offesive manuvers adapted to the desert, combat leadership skills,
>>XM1 tank use and maintenance, really concerned about how they will fit
>>into the software market place once they get out. Yep. Greg, you are once
>>again ate some bad mushrooms.

>In defense of Greg, who will probably never win a Mr. Congeniality award
>but who IMHO does occasionally raise some good points: Officers must have
>college degrees and at least in the Air Force, which I am familiar with,
>many of them have engineering or computer science degrees.  These people
>fit Greg's description quite well.

There are also quite a number of enlisted pukes who do programming.
John seems to make the mistake of thinking that the military is all
about basically brainless grunts in trenches.  I don't think that's
been so for several decades, at least.  It's a very technical military
these days, and some of them do software and are concerned about what
is marketable when they get out.  


-- 
"Insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to live
 in the real world."   -- Mary Shafer, NASA Ames Dryden
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred.McCall@dseg.ti.com - I don't speak for others and they don't speak for me.

Re: Why soldiers are afraid of Ada

[Esther Lumsdon]

bwallet@apssgi.nswc.navy.mil (Brad Wallet) writes:

>Just to burst a bubble or two, but most research and development
>is done by civilians, not people in uniform.  Least that's what
>i have seen.  I have been working at a military research lab for
>three years, and the only military people i have worked with have
>been liason types.

Ditto for NRL and David Taylor.
-- 
-- Esther Lumsdon, not speaking for Verdix.   esther@verdix.com
"It's time to cut bait and talk turkey.  It takes 2 snakes to cross a
puddle. You have to bale hay while the tractor is warm."
  ---- either H. Ross Perot or Dave Barry

Re: Why soldiers are afraid of Ada

[John Cobarruvias]

In article <1993Jul8.152712.28480@mksol.dseg.ti.com>
mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fred j mccall 575-3539) writes:
>In <1993Jul7.160845.20769@fcom.cc.utah.edu> tcrook@u.cc.utah.edu (Tom
Crook) writes:
>
>>In article <1993Jul7.141538.23375@aio.jsc.nasa.gov>
Cobarruvias@asd2.jsc.nasa.gov (John Cobarruvias) writes:
>
>>>Another example of logic on an acid trip. I can just see all the Desert
>>>Storm Grunts trained in the use of an M16, Chemical warfare protection
>>>use, offesive manuvers adapted to the desert, combat leadership skills,
>>>XM1 tank use and maintenance, really concerned about how they will fit
>>>into the software market place once they get out. Yep. Greg, you are
once
>>>again ate some bad mushrooms.
>
>>In defense of Greg, who will probably never win a Mr. Congeniality award
>>but who IMHO does occasionally raise some good points: Officers must
have
>>college degrees and at least in the Air Force, which I am familiar with,
>>many of them have engineering or computer science degrees.  These people
>>fit Greg's description quite well.
>
>There are also quite a number of enlisted pukes who do programming.
>John seems to make the mistake of thinking that the military is all
>about basically brainless grunts in trenches.  I don't think that's
>been so for several decades, at least.  It's a very technical military
>these days, and some of them do software and are concerned about what
                 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>is marketable when they get out.  

Exactly > SOME OF THEM. Making a statement as assinine (sp?) as Greg did
is just another example of his sour grapes rolling off his plate.  There
are a few active duty personnel who have been trained in the deadly skills
of Ada programming who may, just may, have a problem getting a job in the
outside world; if they decided to get out of the Armed Forces, if they
decide to stay in the Computer field. But to say the Armed Forces as a
whole is afraid of Ada is just plain Frickin crap. 

>
>
>-- 
>"Insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to
live
> in the real world."   -- Mary Shafer, NASA Ames Dryden
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
>Fred.McCall@dseg.ti.com - I don't speak for others and they don't speak
for me.
>




*************************************************************
John R. Cobarruvias, Texas A&M Class of '78, 
NASA Johnson Space Center Houston Tx.
(713)483-9357

"Your pain will be legendary" (Hellraiser I)
"And to think..................I hesitated" (Hellraiser II)
"These pins are killing me!" (Pinhead in Hellraiser IV)
*************************************************************

Re: Why soldiers are afraid of Ada

[agate!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!csc.ti.com]

In <1993Jul8.201353.19685@aio.jsc.nasa.gov> Cobarruvias@asd2.jsc.nasa.gov (John
 Cobarruvias) writes:

>But to say the Armed Forces as a
>whole is afraid of Ada is just plain Frickin crap. 

As are the sort of personal attacks levelled by Mr Crook.  If this is
the best 'defense' of Ada against its critics that its proponents can
mount (and it certainly ought not to be), then I would have to submit
that that is prima facie proof that the critics are correct.

Language wars are stupid.  Personal attacks because you disagree with
someone's viewpoint are stupid.  Both seem to rear their heads here
periodically.  If you want 'sour grapes', examine the attitude of some
(note, *some*) members of the Ada community toward C++ (and the
commercial success it has enjoyed, while Ada has not).

Now, can we all get back to discussing Ada?  Attacks on critics of Ada
and on other languages don't do anything to promote Ada.

-- 
"Insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to live
 in the real world."   -- Mary Shafer, NASA Ames Dryden
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred.McCall@dseg.ti.com - I don't speak for others and they don't speak for me.