Re: Is General Kind the harbinger of doom for the Mandate?

Re: Is General Kind the harbinger of doom for the Mandate?

[Wes Groleau X7574]

In article <EACHUS.93Mar31161717@dr_no.mitre.org> eachus@dr_no.mitre.org (Robert I. Eachus) writes:
>.........., but, in time, all the remaining quality-blind hackers will
>be retired, writing video games, or flipping hamburgers.

I can assure you that unless things change, some of the colleges, as well as the
home computer "field" will continue replacing those "quality-blind hackers" !

At least that's what I see happening now in the workplace !

P.S. I posted this with a confusing grammatical error.  This is an attempt
at Supersedes:  If it didn't work, can someone tell me what I should have done?

Re: Is General Kind the harbinger of doom for the Mandate?

[Benjamin Ketcham]

Since nobody else has spoken up about this yet, I may as well mention it:

The term "hacker" describes a culture of programmers who program for
enjoyment, as well as, often, for work.  The hacker culture espouses the
values of robustness and quality in software, and eschews kluge artistry.

The term "hacker" has been imprecisely applied by the media to refer to
persons who break security on shared computer systems, and/or write and
disseminate software viruses.  The true hacker culture has nothing but
contempt for these people.

A new term has been proposed to describe these security-breakers, to
eliminate the current confusion:  "spiders".

Whether or not this term takes hold, it would be nice if we could preserve
the correct usage of the term "hacker".  Women and men who call themselves
hackers have written some (much) of the highest quality software that
exists, and are a driving force behind the evolution of the whole field of
software engineering.

--ben

Hackers (was Is General Kind)

[Mark A. Breland]

In article 1pirdgINNs48@shelley.u.washington.edu, bketcham@stein2.u.washington.edu (Benjamin Ketcham) writes:
>
>Since nobody else has spoken up about this yet, I may as well mention it:
>
>The term "hacker" describes a culture of programmers who program for
>enjoyment, as well as, often, for work.  The hacker culture espouses the
>values of robustness and quality in software, and eschews kluge artistry.
>
>The term "hacker" has been imprecisely applied by the media to refer to
>persons who break security on shared computer systems, and/or write and
>disseminate software viruses.  The true hacker culture has nothing but
>contempt for these people.

While I would agree with your latter point of the media misapplying the
term "hacker" to e-burglars, I am in diametrical opposition to your
assertion that a true hacker "eschews kluge artistry."  Without igniting
any language flame wars, the definition of hacker that I am familiar with
(and have sadly had to experience in previous incarnations) more closely
adheres to the following:

  "What's the problem?  OK.  Gotta spec?  Great...I'll get back to ya."

  [...six weeks later...]

  "Here, how's this look?...great graphics, huh?!...oh, wrong functionality?
   OK,...I'll get back to ya."

  [...eight weeks later...]

   "Alright, everythings cool now.  What?...it crashed?  Well, it only
    handles the left mouse button.  ALRIGHT ALREADY...I'll FIX it!"

  [...four weeks later...]

   "Put an exception handler in every routine so it won't crash...but the
   performance may require more cycles and I/O channels.  Oh, there are
   no more available resources?  Hmmmm.  What?...a design document?...
   traceability?...capacity and throughput analysis?...what are those?
   Aren't ya supposed to just code to fit the spec?...oh, by the way,
   I'll get to those inline comments after I finish this next project..."

---
Mark A. Breland - Microelectronics and Computer Technology Corporation (MCC)
Ada Fault Tolerance                               | voice:    (512) 338-3509
3500 West Balcones Center Drive                   | FAX:      (512) 338-3900
Austin, Texas 78759-6509   USA                    | internet: breland@mcc.com

Re: Hackers (was Is General Kind)

[Wes Groleau X7574]

In article <1993Apr5.131014.7376@mcc.com> breland@mcc.com writes:
>   "Put an exception handler in every routine so it won't crash...but the
>   performance may require more cycles and I/O channels.  Oh, there are
>   no more available resources?  Hmmmm.  What?...a design document?...
>   traceability?...capacity and throughput analysis?...what are those?
>   Aren't ya supposed to just code to fit the spec?...oh, by the way,
>   I'll get to those inline comments after I finish this next project..."
>

You have short-changed another "class" of "hacker" who says:

   "you guys start coding.  I'll go find out what they want"

Re: Hackers (was Is General Kind)

[howland.reston.ans.net!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!csc.ti.com]

In <1993Apr5.131014.7376@mcc.com> breland@mcc.com (Mark A. Breland) writes:

>In article 1pirdgINNs48@shelley.u.washington.edu, bketcham@stein2.u.washington
.edu (Benjamin Ketcham) writes:
>>
>>Since nobody else has spoken up about this yet, I may as well mention it:
>>
>>The term "hacker" describes a culture of programmers who program for
>>enjoyment, as well as, often, for work.  The hacker culture espouses the
>>values of robustness and quality in software, and eschews kluge artistry.
>>
>>The term "hacker" has been imprecisely applied by the media to refer to
>>persons who break security on shared computer systems, and/or write and
>>disseminate software viruses.  The true hacker culture has nothing but
>>contempt for these people.

>While I would agree with your latter point of the media misapplying the
>term "hacker" to e-burglars, I am in diametrical opposition to your
>assertion that a true hacker "eschews kluge artistry."  Without igniting
>any language flame wars, the definition of hacker that I am familiar with
>(and have sadly had to experience in previous incarnations) more closely
>adheres to the following:

>  "What's the problem?  OK.  Gotta spec?  Great...I'll get back to ya."

>  [...six weeks later...]

>  "Here, how's this look?...great graphics, huh?!...oh, wrong functionality?
>   OK,...I'll get back to ya."

>  [...eight weeks later...]

>   "Alright, everythings cool now.  What?...it crashed?  Well, it only
>    handles the left mouse button.  ALRIGHT ALREADY...I'll FIX it!"

>  [...four weeks later...]

>   "Put an exception handler in every routine so it won't crash...but the
>   performance may require more cycles and I/O channels.  Oh, there are
>   no more available resources?  Hmmmm.  What?...a design document?...
>   traceability?...capacity and throughput analysis?...what are those?
>   Aren't ya supposed to just code to fit the spec?...oh, by the way,
>   I'll get to those inline comments after I finish this next project..."

You can disagree, but you are only perpetrating yet another of the
modern 'misdefinitions' of 'hacker'.  No, he's not going to be
particularly interested in all the paper, per se, but he isn't a 'hack
and slash' programmer, either.  The difference between a (real)
'hacker' and those other folks is that the 'hacker' *loves* what he's
doing and would rather make things elegant and functional than just
about anything.  Sometimes the elegance gets in the way of
comprehension by mere mortals, which is probably the biggest problem
with a 'pure hacker'.  Someday someone is going to want to enhance
what he did.

-- 
"Insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to live
 in the real world."   -- Mary Shafer, NASA Ames Dryden
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred.McCall@dseg.ti.com - I don't speak for others and they don't speak for me.

Re: Hackers (was Is General Kind)

[MILLS,JOHN M.]

In article <1993Apr7.174347.103@mksol.dseg.ti.com> mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (fr
ed j mccall 575-3539) writes:
>In <1993Apr5.131014.7376@mcc.com> breland@mcc.com (Mark A. Breland) writes:
>

[delete lots of optimistic prose, about the higher mission of hackers]

>You can disagree, but you are only perpetrating yet another of the
>modern 'misdefinitions' of 'hacker'.  No, he's not going to be

"You can call a dog's tail a leg, but that don't make it so." -- Abraham Lincol
n

"A rose by any other name would smell as sweet." -- William Shakespeare

"A marvelous animal is the flea, with scarcely a difference 'twixt He and She,
    but He can tell, and so can She."  -- unknown, oft quoted by my father

"What we have here is a failure to communicate"  -- Hud

'Hacker' means what the media mean it to mean. (could I say that fast??)
In popular usage it implies _lots_ more ability than responsibility 
though criminal intent may or may not be attributed.  I humbly [8*>)
suggest it's not a compliment, no matter how many software professionals (?)
wish that it were.

It's the editors of the world you need to convince, not the programmers.

'Sanitation engineers' drive garbage trucks in many PC (no, not 'Personal
Computer') contexts.  Keep trying, tho ..

Regards --jmm--

-- 
John M. Mills, SRE; Georgia Tech/GTRI/TSDL, Atlanta, GA 30332
uucp: ...!{decvax,hplabs,ncar,purdue,rutgers}!gatech!prism!jm59
Internet: john.m.mills@gtri.gatech.edu
EBENE Chocolat Noir 72% de Cacao - WEISS - 42000 St.Etienne - very fine

Re: Hackers (was Is General Kind)

[cis.ohio-state.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!csc.ti.com!til]

In <91874@hydra.gatech.EDU> jm59@prism.gatech.EDU (MILLS,JOHN M.) writes:

>In article <1993Apr7.174347.103@mksol.dseg.ti.com> mccall@mksol.dseg.ti.com (f
red j mccall 575-3539) writes:
>>In <1993Apr5.131014.7376@mcc.com> breland@mcc.com (Mark A. Breland) writes:
>>

>[delete lots of optimistic prose, about the higher mission of hackers]

>>You can disagree, but you are only perpetrating yet another of the
>>modern 'misdefinitions' of 'hacker'.  No, he's not going to be

>"You can call a dog's tail a leg, but that don't make it so." -- Abraham Linco
ln

>"A rose by any other name would smell as sweet." -- William Shakespeare

>"A marvelous animal is the flea, with scarcely a difference 'twixt He and She,
>    but He can tell, and so can She."  -- unknown, oft quoted by my father

>"What we have here is a failure to communicate"  -- Hud

>'Hacker' means what the media mean it to mean. (could I say that fast??)
>In popular usage it implies _lots_ more ability than responsibility 
>though criminal intent may or may not be attributed.  I humbly [8*>)
>suggest it's not a compliment, no matter how many software professionals (?)
>wish that it were.

Rather depends on whether the person who uses it knows what they're
talking about or not.  Contrary to your statement, the Press does
*not* define the English language and what the words mean.  If they
did, we would all be mutually incomprehensible and unable to hold a
discussion about any technical subject whatsoever.

>It's the editors of the world you need to convince, not the
>programmers.

If people who *should* know better use words incorrectly (in order to
make some political point about 'mandated languages' and their
'superiority', for example), how can we ever expect anyone else (like
the Press) to get it right?

>'Sanitation engineers' drive garbage trucks in many PC (no, not 'Personal
>Computer') contexts.  Keep trying, tho ..

So what do 'Software Engineers' drive?  ;-)

-- 
"Insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to live
 in the real world."   -- Mary Shafer, NASA Ames Dryden
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred.McCall@dseg.ti.com - I don't speak for others and they don't speak for me.