Re: Ada vs. C/C++...

[cis.ohio-state.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!cs.utexas.edu!csc.ti. com!tilde.csc.ti.com!mksol!mccall@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU (fred j mccall 575-3539)]

In <EMERY.92Dec8093729@dr_no.mitre.org> emery@dr_no.mitre.org (David Emery) wri
tes:

>I used to read comp.lang.c and comp.lang.c++.  For a while, I got a
>big kick out of comp.lang.c++ and their discussion of standardization
>issues, which the Ada community addressed and (mostly) resolved a long
>time ago.  I even posted to comp.lang.c and comp.lang.c++ once or
>twice.  (The latter was during a discussion of what is known in Ada as
>"elaboration".  The people in c.l.c++ were struggling to understand
>the concept, as it's implicit, rather than explicit, in the language.)
>But, I don't want to become the C/C++ equivalent of people like Ted
>Holden and Fred McCall and start or contribute to comp.lang.jihad.

Pardon me, but you just did.  My apoplogies for thinking that stupid
language bashing doesn't really have a place in ANY newsgroup (unless
someone wants to start some '.advocacy' groups or something).  In any
case, unless you have the force of government behind you, ANY
standardization process tends to be something of a 'struggle', each
and every time.

>I've enjoyed watching the C community struggle with understanding
>threads and the impact of concurrency on their programs.  In
>particular, I've watched people spend lots of time discussing race
>conditions, trying to find the right terms.  What's so 'funny' about
>this is that most any Ada programmer who's had a basic introduction to
>tasking can explain a race condition in about 20 lines of Ada.  

Interesting, but I have to wonder just which 'C' community you're
referring to, since anyone who has studied any computer science has
been taught about race conditions, livelock, deadlock, et al.  It's
hardly necessary to know Ada to get taught this (my school taught
neither C nor Ada, for example, but still taught this).  You seem to
fail to draw a line between high school kids who use C and people who
are professionals and use C -- to you, they are all "the C community". 

>So, to answer your question, the reason I don't post to comp.lang.c or
>comp.lang.c++ is simple.  I don't need the abuse from the majority of
>people who read such groups.  The benefit to the minority of
>open-minded people isn't worth the hasssle of dealing with all the
>flames.  

Pity that the reason you don't do it is because you have better
manners than to behave that way, wouldn't you say?

>During the comp.lang.ada holy wars, I've tried to keep my postings
>based on my experiences, and I've tried to explain/justify my
>conclusions based on my experiences.  Fred McCall's recent postings
>show how the discussion can degenerate into personal ad-hominem
>attacks.    

Only in response to yours, Dave, which is one of the more
'interesting' things about online discussions in general.  One person
makes a bunch of snide remarks categorizing other people, and then
when someone objects to that, THEY are engaging in "personal
ad-hominem attacks".

>What I don't understand is why people like McCall and Holden bother to
>read comp.lang.ada.  Maybe they like to see their name in "electronic
>print".  It's clear that they aren't reading to learn anything about
>Ada; their minds are already made up on this topic.

I read here because I am interested in and work in a place where Ada
is heavily used.  So what's YOUR problem, Dave?  Why do YOU read here?
Because you need a pulpit from which to bash people who use C/C++,
just because it is currently clobbering Ada in the marketplace?

I think you've lost whatever objectivity you may have ever had, Dave.
Would you care to show me where, pray tell, I have come in here
posting about how Ada is crap and C/C++ are wonderful and the only
reason people would pick Ada is because they aren't competent enough
to deal with the potential pitfalls of C/C++ so they need a language
with training wheels?  No, I haven't done any of that.  What I have
done is responded to YOUR remarks about how C/C++ are crap only chosen
by people who are abysmally ingnorant and know only one language and
that if they had any sense they would have picked Ada and C/C++ would
vanish from the market.  Apparently in your universe this is enough to
indicate that my mind is "already made up".

Frankly, I can see why you have problems when you deal with "the C
community".  One is left wondering what ELSE is "clear" to you that
doesn't seem to correspond to reality.

-- 
"Insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to live
 in the real world."   -- Mary Shafer, NASA Ames Dryden
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Fred.McCall@dseg.ti.com - I don't speak for others and they don't speak for me.