Re: Open Systems closed to Ada?

[cis.ohio-state.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!csc.ti.com!til de.csc.ti.com!mksol!mccall@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU (fred j mccall 575-3539)]

In <EMERY.92Nov30210601@dr_no.mitre.org> emery@dr_no.mitre.org (David Emery) wr
ites:

>The U.S. DoD has chosen Ada as a matter of policy.  Its rationale for
>its decision is well-known (and you can disagree with it if you wish.)
>But there's a big difference between the DoD policy on the use of Ada
>and the mantra that I've experienced in the C community.  

>Governments are *supposed* to make policy.  What I consider completely
>objectionable are the people within a technical community who take on
>the role of government/management and make the policy for them.  

Would you rather that government/management 'made policy' with no
input from the technical community?

>Maybe my experience in POSIX is different than the "real workd".  But
>I tell you this:  I've met very few C programmers who have any
>experience with languages significantly different than C (FORTRAN is,
>after all, a similar language.  

NOT!  Or at least no more similar than one procedural language is with
another. 

>Lisp, Smalltalk, SNOBOL, COBOL and Ada
>represent different paradigms.)  

I'm rather curious who these people in the 'C Community' are.  I
prefer (personally) both C++ and C to Ada; my language exerience (in
order) is: FORTRAN IV, BASIC, Pascal, FORTRAN 77, COMPASS, C, Ada,
C++; with brief exposures to SNOBOL, LISP, ALGOL, and a few others.
You insist that my preference must be due to ignorance, but then go on
to accuse the *C COMMUNITY* of being closed-minded and bigotted?

>Even those who profess to like C++
>think its greatest feature is backwards compatability with C.

Say WHAT?  Certainly that's one of many, but "its greatest feature"?
All I can say to that is that you really need to meet more people.

>Conversly, most Ada programmers (that I've met, and i know a LOT of
>Ada people) are familiar with several languages (almost all of them
>know C), and are able to understand the various features of different
>languages.  

Maybe this is your problem.  All the people you know are in the Ada
Community, so when your attitude toward people who aren't becomes
evident, you wind up seeing what you expect to see?

>The C community that I object to has as its primary characteristic
>"Narrow-Mindedness".  

Sounds like the Ada Community that I object to -- what with its rules
and 'Mandates' and accusations of "agree with us or you are ignorant
scum".  Of course, what I've described isn't the Ada Community at all,
but rather some vociferous minority within it.  And what you've
described isn't the "C Community", either.

>The "State religion" metaphor is interesting.  You can well consider
>Ada to be the 'state religion' for the U.S. DoD, but there's no
>requirement to use Ada outside of the DoD (which is the span of the
>Congressional mandate. No one has told HHS, or Agriculture or Commerce
>or Justice to use Ada...)  This can be compared to requiring devotion
>to the state religion while within church.  But, there's no
>requirement to pray to the state religion when outside of the
>state-run church.

>The Ayatollahs of the C community that I've dealt with have a
>different view.  Their view is that "everyone should obey the C
>faith".  People with different views are treated as blasphemers and
>heretics.  

Were you frightened by Dennis Ritchie when you were very young, or
what?  All I can say is that if you came at me with the attitude you
show here, you would probably get exactly the reception that your
attitude seems to lead you to expect.  

Is anyone, no matter who they are, surprised that the sort of abusive
attitude shown here is greeted with something less than love and
kindness from the other side?  

Whatever happened to simply using the best tools to get the job done,
whatever that job might be?  Why so many people who insist that one
tool MUST fit all?  And contrary to what David Emory claims, the
attitude seems to run the other way; there seem to be a lot of Ada
'proponents' who will tell you that if you didn't select Ada for any
important job that it can only be because you are an ignorant idiot or
a "C ayatollah".  More than I have ever encountered among C advocates,
in point of fact (although there are certainly some present in that
group, as well).

So, how about we get back to discussing *Ada* now?

-- 
"Insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to live
 in the real world."   -- Mary Shafer, NASA Ames Dryden
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Fred.McCall@dseg.ti.com - I don't speak for others and they don't speak for me.