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From: schmidt@zola.ics.uci.edu (Doug Schmidt)
Subject: Ada Promises
Date: 15 Nov 89 23:18:49 GMT	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <1989Nov15.151849.1090@paris.ics.uci.edu> (raw)
In-Reply-To: billwolf%hazel.cs.clemson.edu@hubcap.clemson.edu (William Thomas Wolfe, 2847 )

In article <7053@hubcap.clemson.edu>, billwolf%hazel (William Thomas Wolfe, 2847 ) writes:
>   This has been a property of some early Ada *compilers*, but is
>   not a property of the Ada *language*.  

I basically agree with this in principle, though Ganapathi and
Mendal's IEEE Computer article from February 1989 points out several
areas where the Ada's semantics of reordering operations restricts
code motion and strength reduction.  I'd assume that this penalizes
Ada on certain RISC processors since it limits the degree of
instruction scheduling possible.

>   Fortunately, compiler
>   technology is now capable of delivering tight, efficient Ada
>   object code, better than that being produced by C compilers.

Ironically, Ganapathi and Mendal conclude their article by stating
that:
 
  Use of the following Ada capabilities may hinder optimizations currently
  implemented in most Ada compilers:
  
  * exceptions
  * generic units
  * private and limited private types in package definitions
  * naming and modularity of package definitions, and
  * tasking

In other words, just about every major feature that differentiates Ada
from Modula 2 or Pascal exacts a penalty on optimization.  This is a
realistic and understandable phenomenon (C/C++ certainly contain their
share of features that disrupt optimization), but it also makes me
wonder just exactly what you mean with your claim that Ada compilers
produce better code than C compilers.

To avoid misunderstanding, can you please cite *specific* examples
(especially references to publically available literature) to support
your claim?  For example:

1. Precisely which Ada compilers produce better code than which C compilers?
   Not all compilers are created equal...

2. What are the benchmarks and where can they be obtained?  If, in
   order to generate good code, Ada programmers must limit themselves to
   a `Pascal subset' of the language exactly what advantages have
   accrued?

3. What are the hardware/OS platforms and what are the relative costs
   between the Ada and C compilers/environments?  After all, it is
   unfair to compare a $500,000 Rational Ada environment against
   a $120 copy of Turbo C on MS DOS ;-).

Without independently verifiable, empirical evidence it is difficult
to make an informed choice on this issue.  In the words of R. P.
Feynman:

  The fundamental principle of science, the definition almost, is this:
  the sole test of the validity of any idea is experiment.

Additional proof would greatly increase my confidence that Ada is more than
just another `promising' language (pun intended!).

thanks,

  Doug
--
Master Swordsman speak of humility;             | schmidt@ics.uci.edu (ARPA)
Philosophers speak of truth;                    | office: (714) 856-4034
Saints and wisemen speak of the Tao of no doubt;
The moon, sun, and sea speaks for itself. -- Hiroshi Hamada

  parent reply	other threads:[~1989-11-15 23:18 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 41+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
1989-11-14 21:24 A farewell to Ada Ted Holden
1989-11-14 22:54 ` schmidt
1989-11-15 16:06 ` Ada William Thomas Wolfe, 2847 
1989-11-15 16:29   ` Ada & IBM William Thomas Wolfe, 2847 
1989-11-17 15:16     ` ryer
1989-11-18 18:47       ` William Thomas Wolfe, 2847 
1989-11-20  4:53       ` Jerry Callen
1989-11-19  6:05     ` Dick Dunn
1989-11-22 19:20       ` William Thomas Wolfe, 2847 
1989-11-19 20:19     ` Liam R. E. Quin
1989-11-20 12:55       ` William Thomas Wolfe, 2847 
1989-11-25 23:35         ` Liam R. E. Quin
1989-11-26  9:03           ` Ken Ritchie
1989-11-15 23:18   ` Doug Schmidt [this message]
1989-11-16 22:45     ` Ada compilers William Thomas Wolfe, 2847 
1989-11-19  6:30       ` This has gotten stupid! Dick Dunn
1989-11-16 19:08   ` Ada Walter Rowe
1989-11-16 21:33     ` Ada William Thomas Wolfe, 2847 
1989-11-17 18:53       ` Ada Pablo Fernicola
1989-11-18 18:55         ` Ada William Thomas Wolfe, 2847 
1989-11-21  5:24           ` Ada Andrew Koenig
1989-11-22  9:54             ` Ada Mats Luthman
1989-11-22 18:44             ` Ada William Thomas Wolfe, 2847 
1989-11-23  9:44               ` Ada Mats Luthman
1989-11-23  7:12             ` Ada Markku Sakkinen
1989-11-21 14:35           ` Ada [and the object oriented metaphor] mjl
1989-11-22 20:54             ` Hoare, Ada, and safety/complexity John Goodenough
1989-11-24  0:38               ` Richard Pattis
1989-11-26  6:09           ` Ada vs. C++ Paul S. R. Chisholm
1989-11-18  6:38       ` Ada Marco S Hyman
1989-11-19  7:25       ` interesting statistic Dick Dunn
1989-11-22 18:54         ` William Thomas Wolfe, 2847 
1989-11-24 17:44           ` Cay Horstmann
1989-11-25 19:59             ` William Thomas Wolfe, 2847 
1989-11-17 15:59     ` Ada allows one-char names (was Re: Ada) Steve Frysinger of Blue Feather Farm
1989-11-19  5:52   ` Forward into the past Dick Dunn
1989-11-20 16:47   ` Ada vs. Posix -- the battle continues mjl
1989-11-20 21:51     ` Ada & Posix William Thomas Wolfe, 2847 
1989-11-21  1:06       ` William Thomas Wolfe, 2847 
1989-11-15 18:55 ` A farewell to Ada Richard S D'Ippolito
1989-11-17 17:19 ` Michael Schwartz
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