Unknown Government Training ?

Unknown Government Training ?

[Mark Oestmann]

Ben Casado writes,
>      Perhaps you were involved with the government for a few years and 
> not that much was being done for the sake of training personnel in the Ada 
> language, but I worked with the government for two years and received an 
> education and training in Ada that made me very marketable in private 
> industry.  In my first year with the government I was send to Texas to get  
> trained in Ada and Software Engineering.  After that year I was transferred   
> to the Communications and Electronics Command, Ft. Monmouth N.J. to continue 
> my training.  There I developed a wide variety of projects in Ada, and also 
> received an educational package that helped me obtained a masters in Software 
> Engineering at Monmouth College.  
>      The department of the army, more in particular AST at CECOM Ft. Monmouth
> N.J., is doing serious training in Ada and Software Engineering and is 
> investing a lot of money to get their personnel trained.   Perhaps you should 
> do a little research and learn about what is been done by this organization.
> I am speaking in defense of the department of the army, and I am sure that the
> others branches of the DOD are investing as well.  

It appears that our organization needs to be made a little more visible.
The School of Engineering and Logistics located at Red  River Army Depot
in Texarkana, Texas trains civilian engineers and logisticians for the Army
Material Command (AMC) and other government agencies.  Software Engineering
is one of the six engineering programs taught at the school.  The Software
Engineering program is in its third year of existence.  The program of 
instruction is one year in length and Ada is the core language of the
program.  Each student brought into the program must have a Bachelor's
degree in engineering.  The AMC software engineers also have a second year
of training and work at Monmouth College and CECOM, Ft. Monmouth, NJ.
The second year of training incidentally leads to a Master's degree in 
Software Engineering. 
Ada is also taught in the other five engineering programs.

Mark Oestmann
School of Engineering and Logistics
Red River Army Depot
Texarkana, TX  75507-5000

214/334-3335
AMXMC-SEL@SIMTEL20.ARMY.MIL

-------

Unknown government training?

[Ben x2302]

>   This is a common problem in the government.  The majority of the 
>   government's software is in COBOL, and a good many of its programmers
>   know nothing about C, PASCAL, etc.  The major reason for this is that
>   the government can not recruit people with any type of CS degree.  How
>   many CS majors out there would be willing to start at $14,000?  But a
>   lot of secretaries, computer operators, and low level managers are 
>   willing to become 'programmers' in order to reap the riches of computer
>   industry.  I worked for the government for awhile and everything was
>   done in COBOL with a little systems work done in Algol(Burroughs shop).
>   Management kept saying that the DOD had mandated ADA as a programming
>   language of the future but from what I saw, only about 10% of the
>   programmers would be able to comprehend ADA or would be willing to try.
>   Personally, I don't see the government completely switching from COBOL 
>   to ADA because of the expense of conversion, cost of training, and 
>   resistance to change.  However, the trend in the government is to contract
>   out this type of work, so who knows.


Dear Mr. Alan Beal:

     My name is Ben Casado, I am currently working at Lockheed Electronics
Corporation, Plainfield N.J., and I am writing in response to the comments
you made in February 26.  Perhaps instead of a statement, what you should have
written was a question to the people involved in this activity, to find out 
what the government is doing as far as training their personnel in Ada 
technology. 
     Perhaps you were involved with the government for a few years and 
not that much was being done for the sake of training personnel in the Ada 
language, but I worked with the government for two years and received an 
education and training in Ada that made me very marketable in private 
industry.  In my first year with the government I was send to Texas to get  
trained in Ada and Software Engineering.  After that year I was transferred   
to the Communications and Electronics Command, Ft. Monmouth N.J. to continue 
my training.  There I developed a wide variety of projects in Ada, and also 
received an educational package that helped me obtained a masters in Software 
Engineering at Monmouth College.  
     The department of the army, more in particular AST at CECOM Ft. Monmouth
N.J., is doing serious training in Ada and Software Engineering and is 
investing a lot of money to get their personnel trained.   Perhaps you should 
do a little research and learn about what is been done by this organization.
I am speaking in defense of the department of the army, and I am sure that the
others branches of the DOD are investing as well.  
     Before you get involved in a public activity such as this one and make
unbacked allegations about the DOD, perhaps a little research should be
done on your part.  
     If you Mr. Beal, or any other is interested in finding more about the
training that I received in order to learned what is being done at the 
government, call at (201) 757-1600 ext 2472, or after hours at (201) 359-2296.

 Ben Casado
 Lockheed Electronics Corporation,
 Advanced Programs.
 lecgwy!mdlrth.dnet!casado@rutgers.edu 

Re: Unknown government training?

[Alan Beal]

In article <8902280023.AA20727@rutgers.edu> casado@mdlrth.dnet (Ben x2302) writes:
>     Perhaps you were involved with the government for a few years and 
>not that much was being done for the sake of training personnel in the Ada 
>language, but I worked with the government for two years and received an 
>education and training in Ada that made me very marketable in private 
>industry.

   Ok, I worked for the defense department(really Defense Logistics Agency) 
   for 5 years.  I started out without any degree in CS, ADP, etc but was
   recruited into a 3 year intern program to train me how to program in
   COBOL.  One person was trained in ADA the whole time I was there - this
   is out of about 60-70 programmers.  There was lip service to how the
   defense department had mandated that all new software be programmed in
   ADA.  When I left(in Sept), the score was COBOL 3000, ADA 0.

   I have a friend who worked for an Air Force cataloging agency and then
   for the Navy.  I don't recall any mention of ADA training or its use
   by him.  

   I may have been premature in implying that the government isn't using ADA
   at this time or isn't planning to use ADA in the future.  My
   opinion is that there will be some areas in which ADA will be used but I
   feel a great deal of the programming will continue to be done in COBOL
   for many years to come.

   It is true that the government invests a lot of money in training, but I
   question if it is always well spent.  After all, there are those of us
   who willing accept this training and then leave.  I have seen numerous
   cases where people claimed they couldn't program in language XYZ, but
   once they received training in language XYZ, about one month 
   later it would be hard to get those people to do even the most basic
   programming in that language.  At this point, they suddenly get a job as
   a systems analyst.

>In my first year with the government I was send to Texas to get  
>trained in Ada and Software Engineering.  After that year I was transferred   
>to the Communications and Electronics Command, Ft. Monmouth N.J. to continue 
>my training.  There I developed a wide variety of projects in Ada, and also 
>received an educational package that helped me obtained a masters in Software 
>Engineering at Monmouth College.  

  I am curious why you aren't still with the government if it was such the
  progressive, modern environment that you depict.  I would predict you
  are probably making at least one-half again as much as you were with the
  government.  Now Lockheed is benefiting from the investment of the 
  government on your behalf.

>     Before you get involved in a public activity such as this one and make
>unbacked allegations about the DOD, perhaps a little research should be
>done on your part.  

  I was just commenting on my experiences with the government, and I agree
  my statements may have been a little too general and perhaps I should
  not have been speaking for the defense department as a whole.  But then
  after 5 years, I could really tell you some horror stories.
-=-
 Alan Beal
 The Ohio State University
 Department of Computer and Information Science
 beal@cis.ohio-state.edu      {pyramid,killer}!osu-cis!cis.ohio-state.edu!beal

Re: Unknown government training?

[William A. Bralick]

In article <37413@tut.cis.ohio-state.edu> Alan Beal <beal@cis.ohio-state.edu> writes:

>   I may have been premature in implying that the government isn't using ADA
>   at this time or isn't planning to use ADA in the future.  

Rest assured that the government has plenty of Air Defense Artillery units.
The ADA is certainly a critical element of our force structure.  This 
discussion is probably better suited to sci.military, though.

(I know, but I couldn't help myself :-)

Regards,

-- 
Will Bralick : wbralick@afit-ab.arpa  |  If we desire to defeat the enemy,
Air Force Institute of Technology,    |  we must proportion our efforts to 
                                      |  his powers of resistance.
with disclaimer;  use disclaimer;     |               - Carl von Clauswitz

Re: Unknown government training?

[James Haskins]

From article <37413@tut.cis.ohio-state.edu>, by beal@ketch.cis.ohio-state.edu (Alan Beal):
> In article <8902280023.AA20727@rutgers.edu> casado@mdlrth.dnet (Ben x2302) writes:
> 
>    Ok, I worked for the defense department(really Defense Logistics Agency) 
>    for 5 years.  I started out without any degree in CS, ADP, etc but was
>    recruited into a 3 year intern program to train me how to program in
>    COBOL.  One person was trained in ADA the whole time I was there - this
>    is out of about 60-70 programmers.  There was lip service to how the
>    defense department had mandated that all new software be programmed in
>    ADA.  When I left(in Sept), the score was COBOL 3000, ADA 0.
> 
  Why did it surprise you that DLSC showed little enthusiasm for ADA?  If  
things are still as I recall them when I left in 82, well over 90 % of DIDS
and the other subsidiary systems are written in COBOL and the organization
is principally operating in maintenance mode.  DLA as a whole has not
completely ignored the subject.  Here at DSAC (for the rest of the readers
this is the principal design activity for DLA), an ADA task group worked for
nearly two years.  A cadre of folks was trained and did some development work
on various prototype demos.  While it is true that this has not led to a
stampede to get the agency converted to ADA, it is evidence that we have
not taken a totally complacent attitude.  For the rest of the readers, don't
be surprised if ADA is slow to "take over" DoD.  Like everyone else in the
industry, we have a large installed base of software written in other
languages.  There are some here that would argue that a move to C, for 
portability reasons, would make sense in some cases.  If ADA takes over, the
process will be evolutionary rather than revolutionary.


>    It is true that the government invests a lot of money in training, but I
>    question if it is always well spent.  After all, there are those of us
>    who willing accept this training and then leave.  I have seen numerous
>    cases where people claimed they couldn't program in language XYZ, but
>    once they received training in language XYZ, about one month 
>    later it would be hard to get those people to do even the most basic
>    programming in that language.  At this point, they suddenly get a job as
    a systems analyst.
> 
> 

I wish I had a dollar for every time I've heard this argument about the low
mentality of government workers.  Even government workers often engage in 
this form of "fed bashing".  It is hard to attract job candidates, especially
at the entry level, because we can't offer competitive salaries.  We lost two
coop students, students that we had provided the opportunity to gain 
experience through summer employment while they were completing college, to
IBM and AT&T because we could not match the starting salaries.  However,
in many places, like Battle Creek or Columbus, the journeyman salaries are
generally competitive, at least for most programming jobs.  Folks who complain
about the way the government operates and the people who work for it but who
refuse to work for the government themselves don't have a bitch coming when
the government doesn't act the way they think it should.> 
>  Alan Beal
>  The Ohio State University
>  Department of Computer and Information Science
>  beal@cis.ohio-state.edu      {pyramid,killer}!osu-cis!cis.ohio-state.edu!beal
-- 
Jim Haskins
DLA Systems Automation Center                     | 614 238-9432
DSAC-TMP P.O. Box 1605 Columbus, Ohio 43216       | Autovon 850-
All opinions expressed are mine alone etc., etc.