* Re: TIOBE Programming Community Index for November 2007
2007-11-04 17:56 TIOBE Programming Community Index for November 2007 Martin Krischik
@ 2007-11-04 19:08 ` j.khaldi
2007-11-04 21:27 ` Ludovic Brenta
2007-11-04 21:09 ` Markus E L
` (3 subsequent siblings)
4 siblings, 1 reply; 30+ messages in thread
From: j.khaldi @ 2007-11-04 19:08 UTC (permalink / raw)
On Nov 4, 6:56 pm, Martin Krischik <krisc...@users.sourceforge.net>
wrote:
> Hello,
>
> You, I don't like the index, but it is there, widely used and I think we
> have to deal with it.
>
> And currently we deal badly - place 20 - one down and we are off the scale:
>
> http://www.tiobe.com/tpci.htm
>
> Yes, sure those Lua advocates must have fixed something to gain 32 places in
> one year:
>
> http://www.tiobe.com/tiobe_index/Lua.html
>
> But then it shows that they have a dedicated comunity which can fix
> something. Why can't we?
First you have to fix this: Ada lacks a free and *fast* compiler,
perhaps written in Ada (like the free Pascal one); and then this: an
integrated development tool written in Ada to (like Lazarus -
http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/).
> On a lighter side: Visual-Basic overtook C++ ?!?
Many desktop applications are developed in VB or Delphi. They are
fast, cheap and easy to write using RAD tools.
Jilani
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread
* Re: TIOBE Programming Community Index for November 2007
2007-11-04 17:56 TIOBE Programming Community Index for November 2007 Martin Krischik
2007-11-04 19:08 ` j.khaldi
@ 2007-11-04 21:09 ` Markus E L
2007-11-05 9:19 ` Martin Krischik
2007-11-05 1:10 ` anon
` (2 subsequent siblings)
4 siblings, 1 reply; 30+ messages in thread
From: Markus E L @ 2007-11-04 21:09 UTC (permalink / raw)
Martin Krischik wrote:
> Hello,
>
> You, I don't like the index, but it is there, widely used and I think we
> have to deal with it.
>
> And currently we deal badly - place 20 - one down and we are off the scale:
>
> http://www.tiobe.com/tpci.htm
>
> Yes, sure those Lua advocates must have fixed something to gain 32 places in
> one year:
>
> http://www.tiobe.com/tiobe_index/Lua.html
>
> But then it shows that they have a dedicated comunity which can fix
> something. Why can't we?
>
> On a lighter side: Visual-Basic overtook C++ ?!?
>
"The ratings are based on the world-wide availability of skilled
engineers, courses and third party vendors."
That might explain a lot: C++ programmers are presently much in
demand, VB programmers are getting phased out. Ehat the index
basically measures (partially, at least) is unemployment.
Just an idea ;-).
Regards -- Markus
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread
* Re: TIOBE Programming Community Index for November 2007
2007-11-04 21:09 ` Markus E L
@ 2007-11-05 9:19 ` Martin Krischik
2007-11-05 10:24 ` Markus E L
2007-11-06 20:20 ` Gautier
0 siblings, 2 replies; 30+ messages in thread
From: Martin Krischik @ 2007-11-05 9:19 UTC (permalink / raw)
Markus E L schrieb:
> Martin Krischik wrote:
>
>> Hello,
>>
>> You, I don't like the index, but it is there, widely used and I think we
>> have to deal with it.
>>
>> And currently we deal badly - place 20 - one down and we are off the scale:
>>
>> http://www.tiobe.com/tpci.htm
>>
>> Yes, sure those Lua advocates must have fixed something to gain 32 places in
>> one year:
>>
>> http://www.tiobe.com/tiobe_index/Lua.html
>>
>> But then it shows that they have a dedicated comunity which can fix
>> something. Why can't we?
>>
>> On a lighter side: Visual-Basic overtook C++ ?!?
>>
>
>
> "The ratings are based on the world-wide availability of skilled
> engineers, courses and third party vendors."
That's the logical description. Physically it is done 'by counting hits
of the most popular search engines. The search query that is used is
+"<language> programming" '
One problem we face is that "most popular" now excludes usenet and
google-groups :-(. See:
http://www.tiobe.com/tiobe_index/tpci_definition.htm
> That might explain a lot: C++ programmers are presently much in
> demand, VB programmers are getting phased out. that the index
> basically measures (partially, at least) is unemployment.
Well it's more a measurer of:
<META NAME="KEYWORDS" CONTENT="XXX programming">
Martin
--
mailto://krischik@users.sourceforge.net
Ada programming at: http://ada.krischik.com
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread
* Re: TIOBE Programming Community Index for November 2007
2007-11-05 9:19 ` Martin Krischik
@ 2007-11-05 10:24 ` Markus E L
2007-11-06 20:20 ` Gautier
1 sibling, 0 replies; 30+ messages in thread
From: Markus E L @ 2007-11-05 10:24 UTC (permalink / raw)
Martin Krischik wrote:
> Markus E L schrieb:
>> Martin Krischik wrote:
>>
>>> Hello,
>>>
>>> You, I don't like the index, but it is there, widely used and I think we
>>> have to deal with it.
>>>
>>> And currently we deal badly - place 20 - one down and we are off the scale:
>>>
>>> http://www.tiobe.com/tpci.htm
>>>
>>> Yes, sure those Lua advocates must have fixed something to gain 32 places in
>>> one year:
>>>
>>> http://www.tiobe.com/tiobe_index/Lua.html
>>>
>>> But then it shows that they have a dedicated comunity which can fix
>>> something. Why can't we?
>>>
>>> On a lighter side: Visual-Basic overtook C++ ?!?
>>>
>>
>>
>> "The ratings are based on the world-wide availability of skilled
>> engineers, courses and third party vendors."
>
> That's the logical description. Physically it is done 'by counting hits
> of the most popular search engines. The search query that is used is
> +"<language> programming" '
The problem with hat method is that it doesn't count "popularity", but
"activity", meaning, if people start mass migratring away from a
language, one might get a situation in which the language is being
mentioned rather often.
> One problem we face is that "most popular" now excludes usenet and
> google-groups :-(. See:
>
> http://www.tiobe.com/tiobe_index/tpci_definition.htm
:-). Those indices are worth nothing, simply.
>
>> That might explain a lot: C++ programmers are presently much in
>> demand, VB programmers are getting phased out. that the index
>> basically measures (partially, at least) is unemployment.
>
> Well it's more a measurer of:
>
> <META NAME="KEYWORDS" CONTENT="XXX programming">
Yes, might be. I hope you noticed my smiley (it was a ;-) ...), but
I'm at least partially serious: Those methods measure whatever they
count, but definitely not popularity.
Regards -- Markus
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread
* Re: TIOBE Programming Community Index for November 2007
2007-11-05 9:19 ` Martin Krischik
2007-11-05 10:24 ` Markus E L
@ 2007-11-06 20:20 ` Gautier
1 sibling, 0 replies; 30+ messages in thread
From: Gautier @ 2007-11-06 20:20 UTC (permalink / raw)
Martin Krischik:
> One problem we face is that "most popular" now excludes usenet and
> google-groups :-(.
There are some gateways usenet <-> web, like http://de.nntp2http.com/
I found once relaying the OpenGL ng, looking like a blog or a web forum.
______________________________________________________________
Gautier -- http://www.mysunrise.ch/users/gdm/index.htm
Ada programming -- http://www.mysunrise.ch/users/gdm/gsoft.htm
NB: For a direct answer, e-mail address on the Web site!
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread
* Re: TIOBE Programming Community Index for November 2007
2007-11-04 17:56 TIOBE Programming Community Index for November 2007 Martin Krischik
2007-11-04 19:08 ` j.khaldi
2007-11-04 21:09 ` Markus E L
@ 2007-11-05 1:10 ` anon
2007-11-05 7:27 ` Martin Krischik
2007-11-05 9:29 ` Stephen Leake
2007-11-06 20:35 ` Simon Wright
4 siblings, 1 reply; 30+ messages in thread
From: anon @ 2007-11-05 1:10 UTC (permalink / raw)
Means nothing!
The rating as states is based on search engines. At the beginning of
classes students are searching for sites to find help. After a month
most have them the links and are no longer searching. So, the rating
drops. A better check will be after the final exam and before the next
class begins.
And most working programmers including Ada programmers will search
privately before deciding to change job. If they find one then the family
finds out as the boss receive his 2-week notice. Others use local or
national paid job services which TIOBE does not have access to. And a
small number will use word of mouth, from friend, which TIOBE will
never have access to. Other use "Hotjob", "monster", "careerbuilder",
or etc. which searches decreases at the beginning though the mid of the
school term but increase at the end as the grads start to become a
honest tax payer.
So, I would not hold too much stock in TIOBE rating system, says.
In <1779892.Lp74q3fGR4@linux1.krischik.com>, Martin Krischik <krischik@users.sourceforge.net> writes:
>Hello,
>
>You, I don't like the index, but it is there, widely used and I think we
>have to deal with it.
>
>And currently we deal badly - place 20 - one down and we are off the scale:
>
>http://www.tiobe.com/tpci.htm
>
>Yes, sure those Lua advocates must have fixed something to gain 32 places in
>one year:
>
>http://www.tiobe.com/tiobe_index/Lua.html
>
>But then it shows that they have a dedicated comunity which can fix
>something. Why can't we?
>
>On a lighter side: Visual-Basic overtook C++ ?!?
>
>Martin
>--
>mailto://krischik@users.sourceforge.net
>Ada programming at: http://ada.krischik.com
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread
* Re: TIOBE Programming Community Index for November 2007
2007-11-05 1:10 ` anon
@ 2007-11-05 7:27 ` Martin Krischik
2007-11-05 8:54 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
` (2 more replies)
0 siblings, 3 replies; 30+ messages in thread
From: Martin Krischik @ 2007-11-05 7:27 UTC (permalink / raw)
anon schrieb:
> Means nothing!
>
> The rating as states is based on search engines. At the beginning of
> classes students are searching for sites to find help. After a month
> most have them the links and are no longer searching. So, the rating
> drops. A better check will be after the final exam and before the next
> class begins.
>
Prehaps you should read the definition:
http://www.tiobe.com/tiobe_index/tpci_definition.htm
Aa far as I understand it they just count hits. If you got to google and
execute:
http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=de&newwindow=1&q=%2B%22Ada+programming%22&btnG=Suche&lr=lang_de%7Clang_en
you get 220.000 pages. Note the use of +"Ada programming" - without the
+ and the " it would be a lot more. I think adding:
<META NAME="KEYWORDS" CONTENT="Ada programming">
to every Ada related page would do the trick.
Martin
--
mailto://krischik@users.sourceforge.net
Ada programming at: http://ada.krischik.com
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread
* Re: TIOBE Programming Community Index for November 2007
2007-11-05 7:27 ` Martin Krischik
@ 2007-11-05 8:54 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2007-11-05 9:35 ` Martin Krischik
2007-11-05 10:11 ` Ludovic Brenta
2007-11-05 9:34 ` Stephen Leake
2007-11-05 13:19 ` anon
2 siblings, 2 replies; 30+ messages in thread
From: Dmitry A. Kazakov @ 2007-11-05 8:54 UTC (permalink / raw)
On Mon, 05 Nov 2007 08:27:03 +0100, Martin Krischik wrote:
> <META NAME="KEYWORDS" CONTENT="Ada programming">
>
> to every Ada related page would do the trick.
Just "Ada" isn't enough? I think I have no single "Ada programming" on my
pages.
--
Regards,
Dmitry A. Kazakov
http://www.dmitry-kazakov.de
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread
* Re: TIOBE Programming Community Index for November 2007
2007-11-05 8:54 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
@ 2007-11-05 9:35 ` Martin Krischik
2007-11-05 11:07 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2007-11-05 19:46 ` Manuel Gomez
2007-11-05 10:11 ` Ludovic Brenta
1 sibling, 2 replies; 30+ messages in thread
From: Martin Krischik @ 2007-11-05 9:35 UTC (permalink / raw)
Dmitry A. Kazakov schrieb:
> On Mon, 05 Nov 2007 08:27:03 +0100, Martin Krischik wrote:
>
>> <META NAME="KEYWORDS" CONTENT="Ada programming">
>>
>> to every Ada related page would do the trick.
>
> Just "Ada" isn't enough? I think I have no single "Ada programming" on my
> pages.
The way they described it you will need the exact string "Ada
programming" with one space in between. The main reason why we chosen
"Ada programming" when we renamed the wikibook. Or created a category
"Category:Ada programming" on wikipedia. Or have you noticed the "Ada
programming, � 2005,2006 the Authors, Content is available under GNU
Free Documentation License." on all the other Wiki pages.
And for a short time it worked moving Ada up 2 .. 3 places. But not in
the long run - you need to keep momentum. But I already tweaked most of
the pages I have access to.
BTW: there is a reason for it. Just searching Ada programming on YouTube
gives you lot's of hits on women forenames and/or TV programs.
Martin
--
mailto://krischik@users.sourceforge.net
Ada programming at: http://ada.krischik.com
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread
* Re: TIOBE Programming Community Index for November 2007
2007-11-05 9:35 ` Martin Krischik
@ 2007-11-05 11:07 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2007-11-05 19:46 ` Manuel Gomez
1 sibling, 0 replies; 30+ messages in thread
From: Dmitry A. Kazakov @ 2007-11-05 11:07 UTC (permalink / raw)
On Mon, 05 Nov 2007 10:35:26 +0100, Martin Krischik wrote:
> Dmitry A. Kazakov schrieb:
>> On Mon, 05 Nov 2007 08:27:03 +0100, Martin Krischik wrote:
>>
>>> <META NAME="KEYWORDS" CONTENT="Ada programming">
>>>
>>> to every Ada related page would do the trick.
>>
>> Just "Ada" isn't enough? I think I have no single "Ada programming" on my
>> pages.
>
> The way they described it you will need the exact string "Ada
> programming" with one space in between. The main reason why we chosen
> "Ada programming" when we renamed the wikibook. Or created a category
> "Category:Ada programming" on wikipedia. Or have you noticed the "Ada
> programming, � 2005,2006 the Authors, Content is available under GNU
> Free Documentation License." on all the other Wiki pages.
Thank you for the hint. I will add "Ada programming" to my Ada-pages. Not
that I believe it could boots that index... (:-))
--
Regards,
Dmitry A. Kazakov
http://www.dmitry-kazakov.de
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread
* Re: TIOBE Programming Community Index for November 2007
2007-11-05 9:35 ` Martin Krischik
2007-11-05 11:07 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
@ 2007-11-05 19:46 ` Manuel Gomez
1 sibling, 0 replies; 30+ messages in thread
From: Manuel Gomez @ 2007-11-05 19:46 UTC (permalink / raw)
On 5 nov, 10:35, Martin Krischik <krisc...@users.sourceforge.net>
wrote:
> BTW: there is a reason for it. Just searching Ada programming on YouTube
> gives you lot's of hits on women forenames and/or TV programs.
>
They say:
"From this month on, we have stopped monitoring Google groups
because it is not representative anymore. Instead we have added
YouTube for a small percentage. The choice for YouTube might seem
strange but it is now #4 on the Alexa.com chart and people tend to
upload lectures and "how to" videos on this site. The top 3
programming languages on YouTube is Java, C++, and (surprisingly)
Python."
Given that they have added YouTube we should think on uploading some
videos to that site. Some old ones can be found in
http://www.adapower.com/index.php?Command=Class&ClassID=AdvocacyVideos&Title=Ada+Advocacy+Videos
AdaCore has a great repository of Ada videos but I wonder whether they
would like that people upload their videos to YouTube.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread
* Re: TIOBE Programming Community Index for November 2007
2007-11-05 8:54 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2007-11-05 9:35 ` Martin Krischik
@ 2007-11-05 10:11 ` Ludovic Brenta
2007-11-05 11:07 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
1 sibling, 1 reply; 30+ messages in thread
From: Ludovic Brenta @ 2007-11-05 10:11 UTC (permalink / raw)
Dmitry A. Kazakov writes:
> On Mon, 05 Nov 2007 08:27:03 +0100, Martin Krischik wrote:
>
>> <META NAME="KEYWORDS" CONTENT="Ada programming">
>>
>> to every Ada related page would do the trick.
>
> Just "Ada" isn't enough? I think I have no single "Ada programming" on my
> pages.
No, A.D.A. also stands for Americans with Disabilities Act: this is a US
regulation about accessibility and is referenced in a lot of places.
--
Ludovic Brenta.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread
* Re: TIOBE Programming Community Index for November 2007
2007-11-05 7:27 ` Martin Krischik
2007-11-05 8:54 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
@ 2007-11-05 9:34 ` Stephen Leake
2007-11-05 10:05 ` Martin Krischik
2007-11-05 13:19 ` anon
2 siblings, 1 reply; 30+ messages in thread
From: Stephen Leake @ 2007-11-05 9:34 UTC (permalink / raw)
Martin Krischik <krischik@users.sourceforge.net> writes:
> I think adding:
>
> <META NAME="KEYWORDS" CONTENT="Ada programming">
>
> to every Ada related page would do the trick.
Or to every non-Ada related page!
--
-- Stephe
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread
* Re: TIOBE Programming Community Index for November 2007
2007-11-05 9:34 ` Stephen Leake
@ 2007-11-05 10:05 ` Martin Krischik
2007-11-06 10:21 ` Stephen Leake
0 siblings, 1 reply; 30+ messages in thread
From: Martin Krischik @ 2007-11-05 10:05 UTC (permalink / raw)
Stephen Leake schrieb:
> Martin Krischik <krischik@users.sourceforge.net> writes:
>
>> I think adding:
>>
>> <META NAME="KEYWORDS" CONTENT="Ada programming">
>>
>> to every Ada related page would do the trick.
>
> Or to every non-Ada related page!
Technically true but it might be considered cheating.
Martin
--
mailto://krischik@users.sourceforge.net
Ada programming at: http://ada.krischik.com
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread
* Re: TIOBE Programming Community Index for November 2007
2007-11-05 10:05 ` Martin Krischik
@ 2007-11-06 10:21 ` Stephen Leake
2007-11-06 17:38 ` Martin Krischik
0 siblings, 1 reply; 30+ messages in thread
From: Stephen Leake @ 2007-11-06 10:21 UTC (permalink / raw)
Martin Krischik <krischik@users.sourceforge.net> writes:
> Stephen Leake schrieb:
>> Martin Krischik <krischik@users.sourceforge.net> writes:
>>
>>> I think adding:
>>>
>>> <META NAME="KEYWORDS" CONTENT="Ada programming">
>>>
>>> to every Ada related page would do the trick.
>>
>> Or to every non-Ada related page!
>
> Technically true but it might be considered cheating.
Yes; that was partly my point.
How many of the Visual Basic hits are due to such cheating? We have
no way of knowing.
One more reason to ignore this web site.
--
-- Stephe
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread
* Re: TIOBE Programming Community Index for November 2007
2007-11-06 10:21 ` Stephen Leake
@ 2007-11-06 17:38 ` Martin Krischik
0 siblings, 0 replies; 30+ messages in thread
From: Martin Krischik @ 2007-11-06 17:38 UTC (permalink / raw)
Stephen Leake wrote:
> Martin Krischik <krischik@users.sourceforge.net> writes:
>
>> Stephen Leake schrieb:
>>> Martin Krischik <krischik@users.sourceforge.net> writes:
>>>
>>>> I think adding:
>>>>
>>>> <META NAME="KEYWORDS" CONTENT="Ada programming">
>>>>
>>>> to every Ada related page would do the trick.
>>>
>>> Or to every non-Ada related page!
>>
>> Technically true but it might be considered cheating.
>
> Yes; that was partly my point.
>
> How many of the Visual Basic hits are due to such cheating? We have
> no way of knowing.
Well, I think others cheated far more:
http://www.tiobe.com/tiobe_index/Lua.html
Incease popularity 7 fold in 10 month ...
But even more interesting is:
http://www.tiobe.com/tiobe_index/D.html
Martin
--
mailto://krischik@users.sourceforge.net
Ada programming at: http://ada.krischik.com
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread
* Re: TIOBE Programming Community Index for November 2007
2007-11-05 7:27 ` Martin Krischik
2007-11-05 8:54 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2007-11-05 9:34 ` Stephen Leake
@ 2007-11-05 13:19 ` anon
2007-11-05 13:54 ` Martin Krischik
2 siblings, 1 reply; 30+ messages in thread
From: anon @ 2007-11-05 13:19 UTC (permalink / raw)
The problem with this type of survey board is that it uses hits. Any
single person can key in the correct information and cause the numbers
to change in the way he/she likes. Or, any internet programmer can build
a net application to alter the hits pattern in a few seconds.
Plus, most job hunting programmers do not use the keys "Ada programming"
or "Ada jobs". They search for the type of job that they want, such as a
person wanting to work with super-computers might search for
"Super-computers" or "Super-computers jobs". Or they could search for
specific jobs like "Programming jobs in weather forecasting" or
"NASA jobs", in both case super-computers are widely used and neither
search uses a programming language even though one or both jobs could
use Ada.
Actually most grads and programmers looking for jobs do not care what
language they use so long as they can program and not just vacuum out
a dusty computer cabinet or defrag a hard drive at the local computer
repair shop.
And for Ada. The name is not copyrighted! Just entering "Ada" in
a search engine will get you site for.
American Dental Association
American Diabetes Association
American Dietetic Association
Americans with Disabilities Act
Alternative Distribution Alliance
Aeronautical Development Agency
...
and finally [ Ada (programming language) ]
...
Because those topics and others use programming, you could see links to
those website and others if you use "Ada programming" but the
programming languages site should pop up more frequently than the others,
but that not always the case at google.
Then there are people like me who have yet to use "Ada programming" in
a search engine. "Ada Language" is better and limits the data to the
Ada language and its related fields.
So, the hit counter is not a perfect list as TIOBE would like you to
believe.
In <472ec5e7$1@news.post.ch>, Martin Krischik <krischik@users.sourceforge.net> writes:
>anon schrieb:
>> Means nothing!
>>
>> The rating as states is based on search engines. At the beginning of
>> classes students are searching for sites to find help. After a month
>> most have them the links and are no longer searching. So, the rating
>> drops. A better check will be after the final exam and before the next
>> class begins.
>>
>
>Prehaps you should read the definition:
>
>http://www.tiobe.com/tiobe_index/tpci_definition.htm
>
>Aa far as I understand it they just count hits. If you got to google and
>execute:
>
>http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=de&newwindow=1&q=%2B%22Ada+programming%22&btnG=Suche&lr=lang_de%7Clang_en
>
>you get 220.000 pages. Note the use of +"Ada programming" - without the
>+ and the " it would be a lot more. I think adding:
>
><META NAME="KEYWORDS" CONTENT="Ada programming">
>
>to every Ada related page would do the trick.
>
>Martin
>
>--
>mailto://krischik@users.sourceforge.net
>Ada programming at: http://ada.krischik.com
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread
* Re: TIOBE Programming Community Index for November 2007
2007-11-05 13:19 ` anon
@ 2007-11-05 13:54 ` Martin Krischik
2007-11-05 16:00 ` anon
0 siblings, 1 reply; 30+ messages in thread
From: Martin Krischik @ 2007-11-05 13:54 UTC (permalink / raw)
anon schrieb:
> Plus, most job hunting programmers do not use the keys "Ada
> programming" or "Ada jobs".
TIOBE does not only go for job seeker but also for managers who consider
the programming language for a new project.
Or - more likely - a programmer will approach a manager with the claim
"Look Ruby is in the 10 ten of the TIOBE index. Ruby is a top ten
language. Ruby would be good for us. :-) :-)"
Or - horror scenario - "Look Ada dropped of the top 20 at TIOBE - it's
old fashioned - no body uses it any more - we should not be using it".
Dropping off the top 20 will give Ada basher another angle to attack.
> So, the hit counter is not a perfect list as TIOBE would like you to
> believe.
I know that. But many don't.
Besides: TIOBE does not measure actually used search pattern but the
result to one example pattern which they made up and consider useful.
If we find it useful or not does not matter - they find it useful. So we
should consider tweaking our Web-Sides so they will match there pattern.
We would not be the first.
Martin
--
mailto://krischik@users.sourceforge.net
Ada programming at: http://ada.krischik.com
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread
* Re: TIOBE Programming Community Index for November 2007
2007-11-05 13:54 ` Martin Krischik
@ 2007-11-05 16:00 ` anon
2007-11-05 16:10 ` Martin Krischik
0 siblings, 1 reply; 30+ messages in thread
From: anon @ 2007-11-05 16:00 UTC (permalink / raw)
>Or - more likely - a programmer will approach a manager with the claim
>"Look Ruby is in the 10 ten of the TIOBE index. Ruby is a top ten
>language. Ruby would be good for us. :-) :-)"
A programmer suggestion how thing should be managed. That like saying
that a initial programmer job start at $100_000 per year. We all know
that's not true. The top of the pay scale last year was reportedly, the
email specialist at $75_000 for at least 5 years experience, in the US.
Plus, since "google" has not compiled with the US government request to
give them information of what porn site were searched, what makes you
think they would give any information to TIOBE. And since then other
search engines have decide to become private with their data as well. So,
can we trust that TIOBE is actually getting valid data or reporting the
valid data.
In <472f20aa$1@news.post.ch>, Martin Krischik <krischik@users.sourceforge.net> writes:
>anon schrieb:
>
>> Plus, most job hunting programmers do not use the keys "Ada
>> programming" or "Ada jobs".
>
>TIOBE does not only go for job seeker but also for managers who consider
>the programming language for a new project.
>
>Or - more likely - a programmer will approach a manager with the claim
>"Look Ruby is in the 10 ten of the TIOBE index. Ruby is a top ten
>language. Ruby would be good for us. :-) :-)"
>
>Or - horror scenario - "Look Ada dropped of the top 20 at TIOBE - it's
>old fashioned - no body uses it any more - we should not be using it".
>
>Dropping off the top 20 will give Ada basher another angle to attack.
>
>> So, the hit counter is not a perfect list as TIOBE would like you to
>> believe.
>
>I know that. But many don't.
>
>Besides: TIOBE does not measure actually used search pattern but the
>result to one example pattern which they made up and consider useful.
>
>If we find it useful or not does not matter - they find it useful. So we
>should consider tweaking our Web-Sides so they will match there pattern.
>
>We would not be the first.
>
>Martin
>--
>mailto://krischik@users.sourceforge.net
>Ada programming at: http://ada.krischik.com
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread
* Re: TIOBE Programming Community Index for November 2007
2007-11-04 17:56 TIOBE Programming Community Index for November 2007 Martin Krischik
` (2 preceding siblings ...)
2007-11-05 1:10 ` anon
@ 2007-11-05 9:29 ` Stephen Leake
2007-11-05 10:16 ` Martin Krischik
2007-11-06 20:35 ` Simon Wright
4 siblings, 1 reply; 30+ messages in thread
From: Stephen Leake @ 2007-11-05 9:29 UTC (permalink / raw)
Martin Krischik <krischik@users.sourceforge.net> writes:
> You, I don't like the index, but it is there, widely used
What data do you have to back up the assertion that it is "widely
used"?
As a counter point, this is the first I've heard of it.
> http://www.tiobe.com/tpci.htm
It says:
Observe that the TIOBE index is not about the best programming
language or the language in which most lines of code have been
written.
So why should we care?
--
-- Stephe
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread
* Re: TIOBE Programming Community Index for November 2007
2007-11-05 9:29 ` Stephen Leake
@ 2007-11-05 10:16 ` Martin Krischik
2007-11-06 10:19 ` Stephen Leake
0 siblings, 1 reply; 30+ messages in thread
From: Martin Krischik @ 2007-11-05 10:16 UTC (permalink / raw)
Stephen Leake schrieb:
> Martin Krischik <krischik@users.sourceforge.net> writes:
>
>> You, I don't like the index, but it is there, widely used
>
> What data do you have to back up the assertion that it is "widely
> used"?
Google for "TIOBE Programming Community Index" ;-).
> As a counter point, this is the first I've heard of it.
You can't be long here at comp.lang.ada - I have an article on it every
3 to 6 month.
>> http://www.tiobe.com/tpci.htm
>
> It says:
>
> Observe that the TIOBE index is not about the best programming
> language or the language in which most lines of code have been
> written.
>
> So why should we care?
Because it also says:
The index can be used to check whether your programming skills are
still up to date or to make a strategic decision about what
programming language should be adopted when starting to build
a new software system.
And have a look at the Ada bashing on the definition page:
http://www.tiobe.com/tiobe_index/tpci_definition.htm
This is what you also see in daily practice: Ada is hardly used for
new mission-critical systems any more.
Emphasis on "new". This is the problem: Right or wrong - they tell the
world which language to use in future. And this is why we should care.
Martin
--
mailto://krischik@users.sourceforge.net
Ada programming at: http://ada.krischik.com
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread
* Re: TIOBE Programming Community Index for November 2007
2007-11-05 10:16 ` Martin Krischik
@ 2007-11-06 10:19 ` Stephen Leake
2007-11-06 10:56 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2007-11-06 17:25 ` Martin Krischik
0 siblings, 2 replies; 30+ messages in thread
From: Stephen Leake @ 2007-11-06 10:19 UTC (permalink / raw)
Martin Krischik <krischik@users.sourceforge.net> writes:
> Stephen Leake schrieb:
>
>> Martin Krischik <krischik@users.sourceforge.net> writes:
>>
>>> You, I don't like the index, but it is there, widely used
>>
>> What data do you have to back up the assertion that it is "widely
>> used"?
>
> Google for "TIOBE Programming Community Index" ;-).
Ok, so several (many? lots?) of other web sites reference it.
To me, "used", in this context, means "employed as a criteria for
choosing a language".
How many people pick a language for a project based on this web site?
>> As a counter point, this is the first I've heard of it.
>
> You can't be long here at comp.lang.ada - I have an article on it every
> 3 to 6 month.
Well, I've been here longer than that. I guess my newsgroup memory
filter has been ignoring these posts.
>>> http://www.tiobe.com/tpci.htm
>>
>> It says:
>>
>> Observe that the TIOBE index is not about the best programming
>> language or the language in which most lines of code have been
>> written.
>>
>> So why should we care?
>
> Because it also says:
>
> The index can be used to check whether your programming skills are
> still up to date or to make a strategic decision about what
> programming language should be adopted when starting to build
> a new software system.
Well, it may _say_ that, but I don't _believe_ it!
The number of websites that satisfy its search criteria does _not_
correlate with my ability to get a job programming in Ada.
> And have a look at the Ada bashing on the definition page:
> http://www.tiobe.com/tiobe_index/tpci_definition.htm
>
> This is what you also see in daily practice: Ada is hardly used for
> new mission-critical systems any more.
>
> Emphasis on "new". This is the problem: Right or wrong - they tell the
> world which language to use in future. And this is why we should care.
I beg to differ; this is why we should educate managers about _real_
reasons to pick languages.
--
-- Stephe
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread
* Re: TIOBE Programming Community Index for November 2007
2007-11-04 17:56 TIOBE Programming Community Index for November 2007 Martin Krischik
` (3 preceding siblings ...)
2007-11-05 9:29 ` Stephen Leake
@ 2007-11-06 20:35 ` Simon Wright
2007-11-07 16:22 ` Martin Krischik
4 siblings, 1 reply; 30+ messages in thread
From: Simon Wright @ 2007-11-06 20:35 UTC (permalink / raw)
Martin Krischik <krischik@users.sourceforge.net> writes:
> But then it shows that they have a dedicated comunity which can fix
> something. Why can't we?
For all we know they may just have been frequent YouTube posters!
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread