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From: "Harald Korneliussen" <vintermann@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: How come Ada isn't more popular?
Date: 25 Jan 2007 23:16:10 -0800
Date: 2007-01-25T23:16:10-08:00	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <1169795770.615567.64860@s48g2000cws.googlegroups.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <4iauh.1157694$084.1040745@attbi_s22>



On 25 Jan, 23:36, "Jeffrey R. Carter" <jrcar...@acm.org> wrote:
> The only safe use of C is as a target language for code generators (such
> as the SofCheck Ada -> C compiler). The continuing creation of
> buffer-overflow errors in C shows that, in practice, it is impossible
> for humans to create safe C.
>
Not to promote C myself, but there exist tools which may be useful.
Run-time checking such as can be achieved with profilers and
malloc-replacements don't cut it, IMO, since they only find errors in
the most trodden paths of the program. Static analysers, like the one
promoted by Coverity, now there's something valuable. Aslo,
annotation-based analyzers like splint can probably make programs as
safe as Ada if the developers actually take the time to use them.
Another interesting approach is that taken by CCured, of transforming C
programs by classifying pointers according to usage, and then inserting
run-time checks to guarantee no access violations of memory corruption.
These are interesting, practical approaches for those of us who have to
maintain C code. The downside is that the further your program strays
from ansi C (not to say into C++!), the less tools are available.




  parent reply	other threads:[~2007-01-26  7:16 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 397+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2007-01-23  5:53 How come Ada isn't more popular? artifact.one
2007-01-23  6:37 ` adaworks
2007-01-23  6:50   ` artifact.one
2007-01-23 14:24   ` Arthur Evans Jr
2007-01-23 20:11     ` Jeffrey R. Carter
2007-01-23 21:14       ` Markus E Leypold
2007-01-23 15:23   ` Ed Falis
2007-01-23 20:09   ` Jeffrey R. Carter
2007-01-24  8:50     ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2007-01-24 20:23       ` Jeffrey R. Carter
2007-01-24 11:06     ` gautier_niouzes
2007-01-24 19:25       ` tmoran
2007-01-25  4:46         ` Gautier
2007-01-25  9:29           ` Markus E Leypold
2007-01-27 16:59             ` Stephen Leake
2007-01-27 20:40               ` Markus E Leypold
2007-01-27 21:19                 ` Markus E Leypold
2007-01-28  8:44                   ` Ray Blaak
2007-01-29  8:56                 ` Maciej Sobczak
2007-01-29 14:21                   ` Markus E Leypold
2007-01-31  9:23                     ` Maciej Sobczak
2007-01-31 10:24                       ` Markus E Leypold
2007-02-02  8:42                         ` Maciej Sobczak
2007-02-02  9:32                           ` Alex R. Mosteo
2007-02-02 11:04                             ` Maciej Sobczak
2007-02-02 13:57                           ` Markus E Leypold
2007-02-03  9:44                             ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2007-02-03 14:51                               ` Markus E Leypold
2007-02-04 17:55                                 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2007-02-04 20:18                                   ` Markus E Leypold
2007-02-04 21:29                                     ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2007-02-04 22:33                                       ` Markus E Leypold
2007-02-05  9:20                                         ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2007-02-05 12:16                                           ` Harald Korneliussen
2007-02-05 14:06                                             ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2007-02-05 13:53                                           ` Markus E Leypold
2007-02-05  9:59                             ` Maciej Sobczak
2007-02-05 13:43                               ` Markus E Leypold
2007-02-06  9:15                                 ` Maciej Sobczak
2007-02-06 11:45                                   ` Markus E Leypold
2007-02-06 14:16                                     ` Maciej Sobczak
2007-02-06 15:44                                       ` Markus E Leypold
2007-02-06 17:40                                         ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2007-02-07  8:55                                         ` Maciej Sobczak
2007-02-07  9:30                                           ` GC in Ada Martin Krischik
2007-02-07 11:08                                             ` Markus E Leypold
2007-02-07 11:15                                             ` Maciej Sobczak
2007-02-07 11:53                                               ` Martin Krischik
2007-02-07 12:22                                                 ` Markus E Leypold
2007-02-08  7:26                                                   ` Martin Krischik
2007-02-08  9:33                                                     ` Markus E Leypold
2007-02-09 13:37                                                       ` Martin Krischik
2007-02-09 13:47                                                       ` Georg Bauhaus
2007-02-09 15:29                                                         ` Maciej Sobczak
2007-02-09 20:52                                                           ` Georg Bauhaus
2007-02-08  7:48                                                 ` Maciej Sobczak
2007-02-08  8:20                                                   ` Martin Krischik
2007-02-08  8:43                                                   ` Markus E Leypold
2007-02-09 14:20                                                     ` Maciej Sobczak
2007-02-09 16:23                                                       ` Markus E Leypold
2007-02-12  8:52                                                         ` Maciej Sobczak
2007-02-12 12:56                                                           ` Markus E Leypold
2007-02-08 18:24                                                   ` Jeffrey R. Carter
2007-02-09  8:57                                                     ` Jean-Pierre Rosen
2007-02-09 12:57                                                       ` Robert A Duff
2007-02-09 14:44                                                         ` Jean-Pierre Rosen
2007-02-10 13:38                                                           ` Robert A Duff
2007-02-12  8:47                                                             ` Jean-Pierre Rosen
2007-02-12 15:31                                                               ` Jeffrey R. Carter
2007-02-09 18:35                                                       ` Jeffrey R. Carter
2007-02-10 19:01                                                         ` Martin Krischik
2007-02-11 15:22                                                         ` Pascal Obry
2007-02-11 20:30                                                           ` Jeffrey R. Carter
2007-02-13 18:47                                                             ` Pascal Obry
2007-02-13 23:08                                                               ` Jeffrey R. Carter
2007-02-14 11:13                                                                 ` Jean-Pierre Rosen
2007-02-14 16:29                                                                   ` Jeffrey R. Carter
2007-02-14 19:47                                                                 ` Robert A Duff
2007-02-14 11:10                                                               ` Jean-Pierre Rosen
2007-02-14 16:29                                                                 ` Jeffrey R. Carter
2007-02-15  8:39                                                                   ` Jean-Pierre Rosen
2007-02-15 17:14                                                                     ` Jeffrey R. Carter
2007-02-08 18:38                                                 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2007-02-09  7:58                                                   ` Maciej Sobczak
2007-02-09 10:07                                                   ` Martin Krischik
2007-02-09 14:10                                                     ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2007-02-07 12:19                                               ` Markus E Leypold
2007-02-08  7:54                                                 ` Maciej Sobczak
2007-02-08  9:49                                                   ` Markus E Leypold
2007-02-07 10:10                                           ` How come Ada isn't more popular? Georg Bauhaus
2007-02-07 10:56                                           ` Markus E Leypold
2007-02-07 22:58                                             ` Georg Bauhaus
2007-02-08  9:04                                             ` Maciej Sobczak
2007-02-08 10:01                                               ` Markus E Leypold
2007-02-06 17:47                                       ` Ray Blaak
2007-02-06 18:05                                         ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2007-02-06 18:28                                           ` Markus E Leypold
2007-02-07  7:54                                           ` Maciej Sobczak
2007-02-07  9:42                                             ` Markus E Leypold
2007-02-08  8:10                                               ` Maciej Sobczak
2007-02-08 18:14                                             ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2007-02-09  8:17                                               ` Maciej Sobczak
2007-02-09 14:02                                                 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2007-02-09 18:08                                                   ` Ray Blaak
2007-02-09 18:43                                                     ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2007-02-09 18:57                                                       ` Ray Blaak
2007-02-09 18:03                                                 ` Ray Blaak
2007-02-09 18:47                                                   ` Randy Brukardt
2007-02-09 19:02                                                     ` Ray Blaak
2007-02-09 19:35                                                       ` Randy Brukardt
2007-02-09 19:52                                                         ` Ray Blaak
2007-02-12  7:20                                                           ` Harald Korneliussen
2007-02-12 14:12                                                             ` Robert A Duff
2007-02-09 22:11                                                         ` Markus E Leypold
2007-02-09 22:05                                                     ` Markus E Leypold
2007-02-10  1:31                                                       ` Randy Brukardt
2007-02-10  2:18                                                         ` Markus E Leypold
2007-02-05 19:05                               ` Ray Blaak
2007-02-09  8:01                           ` adaworks
2007-02-09  9:07                             ` Jean-Pierre Rosen
2007-02-09 10:36                               ` Maciej Sobczak
2007-02-09 12:50                                 ` Robert A Duff
2007-02-09 14:02                                   ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2007-02-10 18:21                                     ` adaworks
2007-02-10 18:41                                       ` Markus E Leypold
2007-02-10 20:29                                       ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2007-02-09 14:12                                   ` Maciej Sobczak
2007-02-09 19:41                                     ` Randy Brukardt
2007-02-12  9:07                                       ` Maciej Sobczak
2007-02-12 20:56                                         ` Randy Brukardt
2007-02-13  9:02                                           ` Maciej Sobczak
2007-02-14 10:12                                           ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2007-02-09  9:21                             ` Markus E Leypold
2007-01-25 21:42           ` Randy Brukardt
2007-01-28 19:32             ` Gautier
2007-01-30 19:41               ` tmoran
2007-01-25 22:21           ` Jeffrey R. Carter
2007-01-25 11:31   ` Ali Bendriss
2007-01-27  5:12     ` Charles D Hixson
2007-01-27  9:52       ` Markus E Leypold
2007-01-27 22:01         ` Charles D Hixson
2007-01-27 23:24           ` Markus E Leypold
2007-01-28  9:14             ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2007-01-28 15:06               ` Markus E Leypold
2007-01-29 14:37                 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2007-01-29 15:50                   ` Markus E Leypold
2007-01-30 19:58                     ` Robert A Duff
2007-01-30 21:52                       ` Markus E Leypold
2007-01-31 22:49                         ` Robert A Duff
2007-01-31 23:07                           ` (see below)
2007-01-31 23:18                             ` Robert A Duff
2007-01-31 23:36                               ` (see below)
2007-02-01  7:57                           ` Markus E Leypold
2007-01-31 17:49                       ` Ed Falis
2007-01-31 22:53                         ` Robert A Duff
2007-01-31 10:55                     ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2007-01-31 15:16                       ` Markus E Leypold
2007-02-01 14:22                         ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2007-02-01 15:18                           ` Markus E Leypold
2007-02-01 16:26                           ` Georg Bauhaus
2007-02-01 17:36                             ` Markus E Leypold
2007-02-01 20:53                               ` Georg Bauhaus
2007-02-01 21:57                                 ` Markus E Leypold
2007-02-01 22:03                                 ` Markus E Leypold
2007-02-01 23:40                                 ` Markus E Leypold
2007-02-03 16:54                                   ` Georg Bauhaus
2007-02-03 18:39                                     ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2007-02-03 20:06                                     ` Markus E Leypold
2007-02-05  0:06                                       ` Markus E Leypold
2007-02-05 13:58                                         ` Georg Bauhaus
2007-02-05 14:23                                           ` Markus E Leypold
2007-02-02  7:17                                 ` Harald Korneliussen
2007-02-05  0:39                               ` Robert A Duff
2007-02-05  1:00                                 ` Markus E Leypold
2007-02-02  9:20                             ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2007-02-02 12:34                               ` Markus E Leypold
2007-02-03  9:45                                 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2007-02-03 14:16                                   ` Markus E Leypold
2007-02-04 19:33                                     ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2007-02-04 20:44                                       ` Markus E Leypold
2007-02-04 23:00                                         ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2007-02-04 23:21                                           ` Markus E Leypold
2007-02-02 14:27                               ` Georg Bauhaus
2007-02-02 16:07                                 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2007-02-01 19:31                           ` Ray Blaak
2007-02-01 22:54                             ` Randy Brukardt
2007-02-02  1:37                               ` in defense of GC (was Re: How come Ada isn't more popular?) Ray Blaak
2007-02-02  9:35                                 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2007-02-02 12:44                                   ` in defense of GC Markus E Leypold
2007-02-03 10:13                                     ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2007-02-03 14:28                                       ` Markus E Leypold
2007-02-04 18:38                                         ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2007-02-04 20:24                                           ` Markus E Leypold
2007-02-04 21:57                                             ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2007-02-04 22:47                                               ` Markus E Leypold
2007-02-04 23:08                                                 ` Markus E Leypold
2007-02-05 15:57                                                   ` Markus E Leypold
2007-02-05  8:47                                                 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2007-02-05 14:03                                                   ` Markus E Leypold
2007-02-05  0:23                                         ` Robert A Duff
2007-02-05  0:55                                           ` Markus E Leypold
2007-02-06  0:01                                             ` Robert A Duff
2007-02-06  1:06                                               ` Markus E Leypold
2007-02-05  1:00                                           ` Ray Blaak
2007-02-05  1:19                                             ` Markus E Leypold
2007-02-06  8:32                                               ` Ray Blaak
2007-02-06 11:07                                                 ` Markus E Leypold
2007-02-06 18:01                                                   ` Ray Blaak
2007-02-06 18:25                                                     ` Markus E Leypold
2007-02-06 19:42                                                     ` Ray Blaak
2007-02-06  0:18                                             ` Robert A Duff
2007-02-06  0:59                                               ` Ray Blaak
2007-02-06  1:07                                               ` Markus E Leypold
2007-02-02 18:15                                   ` in defense of GC (was Re: How come Ada isn't more popular?) Ray Blaak
2007-02-02 19:35                                     ` Adam Beneschan
2007-02-02 20:04                                     ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2007-02-02 22:40                                       ` Ray Blaak
2007-02-03 10:00                                         ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2007-02-03 14:30                                           ` in defense of GC Markus E Leypold
2007-02-02 12:36                                 ` Markus E Leypold
2007-02-02 21:50                                 ` in defense of GC (was Re: How come Ada isn't more popular?) Gautier
2007-02-04  8:19                                   ` Ray Blaak
2007-02-04 17:36                                     ` Hyman Rosen
2007-02-04 21:21                                       ` Ray Blaak
2007-02-05  1:12                                 ` Robert A Duff
2007-02-05  9:06                                   ` Ray Blaak
2007-02-06  0:28                                     ` in defense of GC Robert A Duff
2007-02-06  8:24                                       ` Ray Blaak
2007-02-06 11:50                                         ` Markus E Leypold
2007-02-07  7:44                                           ` Ray Blaak
2007-02-07  8:54                                             ` Georg Bauhaus
2007-02-07 11:19                                               ` Markus E Leypold
2007-02-07 23:32                                                 ` Georg Bauhaus
2007-02-08  8:49                                                   ` Markus E Leypold
2007-02-09 14:09                                                     ` Georg Bauhaus
2007-02-09 16:17                                                       ` Markus E Leypold
2007-02-09 20:51                                                         ` Georg Bauhaus
2007-02-09 22:19                                                           ` Markus E Leypold
2007-02-08  9:24                                                   ` Markus E Leypold
2007-02-09 15:08                                                     ` Georg Bauhaus
2007-02-07 19:01                                               ` Ray Blaak
2007-02-07 11:17                                             ` Markus E Leypold
2007-01-29 16:23                 ` How come Ada isn't more popular? Georg Bauhaus
2007-01-29 16:56                   ` Markus E Leypold
2007-01-29 23:56       ` Randy Brukardt
2007-01-23  6:58 ` AW: " Grein, Christoph (Fa. ESG)
2007-01-23 10:31   ` Talulah
2007-01-23 13:48     ` Anders Wirzenius
2007-01-23 20:17     ` Jeffrey R. Carter
2007-01-23 20:43       ` Pascal Obry
2007-01-24  9:42       ` Maciej Sobczak
2007-01-24 20:48         ` Jeffrey R. Carter
2007-01-23 10:02 ` Stephen Leake
2007-01-23 16:49   ` adaworks
2007-01-23 17:40     ` Markus E Leypold
2007-01-24 12:51       ` Peter Hermann
2007-01-24 14:42         ` Markus E Leypold
2007-01-23 20:10   ` Jeffrey R. Carter
2007-01-23 22:37     ` Frank J. Lhota
2007-01-24  7:27       ` Jeffrey R. Carter
2007-01-24  9:50         ` Maciej Sobczak
2007-01-24 20:25           ` Jeffrey R. Carter
2007-01-24 21:34             ` Markus E Leypold
2007-01-25  9:23               ` Markus E Leypold
2007-01-26  7:59               ` Maciej Sobczak
2007-01-26 20:05                 ` Jeffrey R. Carter
2007-01-26 22:43                   ` Markus E Leypold
2007-01-23 21:19   ` Björn Persson
2007-01-23 10:38 ` Alex R. Mosteo
2007-01-23 12:58   ` gautier_niouzes
2007-01-23 21:56   ` Dr. Adrian Wrigley
2007-01-24 13:52     ` Alex R. Mosteo
2007-01-24 19:25     ` tmoran
2007-01-24 19:38     ` artifact.one
2007-01-26  2:50     ` Keith Thompson
2007-01-26  5:29     ` Gautier
2007-01-27  5:22     ` Charles D Hixson
2007-01-23 19:16 ` Tero Koskinen
2007-01-23 21:12   ` Ludovic Brenta
2007-01-24  9:59     ` Maciej Sobczak
2007-01-24 18:22       ` Yves Bailly
2007-01-24 19:18       ` Markus E Leypold
2007-01-25  8:37         ` Maciej Sobczak
2007-01-25  9:40           ` Markus E Leypold
2007-01-26  8:52             ` Ludovic Brenta
2007-01-26 11:40               ` Markus E Leypold
2007-01-27 16:56             ` Stephen Leake
2007-01-27 19:58               ` Markus E Leypold
2007-01-28 17:12                 ` Ed Falis
2007-01-28 18:38                   ` Markus E Leypold
2007-01-25 10:13           ` Harald Korneliussen
2007-01-25 12:54             ` Markus E Leypold
2007-01-26  7:03               ` Harald Korneliussen
2007-01-25 13:08             ` Markus E Leypold
2007-01-25 22:36             ` Jeffrey R. Carter
2007-01-25 23:26               ` Markus E Leypold
2007-01-26  4:23                 ` Jeffrey R. Carter
2007-01-26 11:35                   ` Markus E Leypold
2007-01-26 20:22                     ` Jeffrey R. Carter
2007-01-26 23:04                       ` Markus E Leypold
2007-01-27 19:57                         ` Frank J. Lhota
2007-01-28 20:43                         ` adaworks
2007-01-28 22:57                           ` Markus E Leypold
2007-01-29  1:04                           ` Jeffrey R. Carter
2007-01-28 20:32                   ` adaworks
2007-01-28 21:12                     ` Cesar Rabak
2007-01-28 22:43                       ` Markus E Leypold
2007-01-29 22:40                         ` Cesar Rabak
2007-01-30  9:31                           ` Markus E Leypold
2007-01-30 16:19                           ` adaworks
2007-01-30 21:05                             ` Jeffrey Creem
2007-01-31  7:59                               ` AW: " Grein, Christoph (Fa. ESG)
2007-02-03 16:33                                 ` Martin Krischik
2007-01-28 22:38                     ` Markus E Leypold
2007-01-29 16:16                       ` adaworks
2007-01-29 16:35                         ` Markus E Leypold
2007-01-29  1:02                     ` Jeffrey R. Carter
2007-01-30  0:21                       ` Randy Brukardt
2007-01-26  7:21                 ` Harald Korneliussen
2007-01-26  7:16               ` Harald Korneliussen [this message]
2007-01-27  5:30             ` Charles D Hixson
2007-01-24 20:10   ` Cesar Rabak
2007-01-23 20:02 ` Jeffrey R. Carter
2007-01-24  7:18   ` adaworks
2007-01-24 14:19   ` Alex R. Mosteo
2007-01-24 15:27     ` Poll on background of Ada people (was: How come Ada isn't more po) Larry Kilgallen
2007-01-23 21:36 ` How come Ada isn't more popular? kevin  cline
2007-01-23 22:18   ` Martin Dowie
2007-01-24  4:14     ` Alexander E. Kopilovich
2007-01-24  7:30       ` Jeffrey R. Carter
2007-01-24 20:15         ` Alexander E. Kopilovich
2007-01-25 22:16           ` Jeffrey R. Carter
2007-01-25 23:32             ` Markus E Leypold
2007-01-26  8:50               ` AW: " Grein, Christoph (Fa. ESG)
2007-01-26 11:52                 ` Markus E Leypold
2007-01-29  6:16                   ` AW: " Grein, Christoph (Fa. ESG)
2007-01-29 14:31                     ` Markus E Leypold
2007-01-26  8:56               ` Ludovic Brenta
2007-01-26 11:49                 ` Markus E Leypold
2007-01-26 22:05             ` Alexander E. Kopilovich
2007-01-24  7:31     ` Jeffrey R. Carter
2007-01-24  7:42     ` kevin  cline
2007-01-24  8:07       ` Ludovic Brenta
2007-01-24 12:12         ` Markus E Leypold
2007-01-24 12:48           ` Ludovic Brenta
2007-01-24 14:49             ` Markus E Leypold
2007-01-24 13:40           ` Pascal Obry
2007-01-24 14:50             ` Markus E Leypold
2007-01-24 17:22               ` Pascal Obry
2007-01-24 17:56                 ` Markus E Leypold
2007-01-24 18:09                   ` Pascal Obry
2007-01-24 19:37                     ` Markus E Leypold
2007-01-24 19:52                       ` Pascal Obry
2007-01-24 21:31                         ` Markus E Leypold
2007-03-19  2:09                           ` adaworks
2007-01-25  7:52                     ` Harald Korneliussen
2007-01-24 16:25         ` Adam Beneschan
2007-01-24 17:03           ` Niklas Holsti
2007-01-25 15:37           ` Bob Spooner
2007-02-06  9:54         ` Dave Thompson
2007-02-06 11:01           ` Ludovic Brenta
2007-02-26  5:47             ` Dave Thompson
2007-01-24 16:14       ` adaworks
2007-01-25  0:22         ` kevin  cline
2007-01-25  6:04           ` adaworks
2007-01-25 10:37             ` Maciej Sobczak
2007-01-25 23:36               ` Markus E Leypold
2007-01-25 10:42           ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2007-01-25  8:27         ` Harald Korneliussen
2007-01-25  4:50       ` Alexander E. Kopilovich
2007-01-27  5:43       ` Charles D Hixson
2007-01-27  8:38         ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2007-01-28 12:11           ` Michael Bode
2007-01-28 15:20             ` Markus E Leypold
2007-01-29  9:44               ` Martin Krischik
2007-01-27 13:06         ` Gautier
2007-01-27 16:28           ` Ludovic Brenta
2007-01-28  0:55           ` Charles D Hixson
2007-01-28  1:18             ` Ludovic Brenta
2007-01-28 17:06             ` Jeffrey R. Carter
2007-01-28 21:11             ` adaworks
2007-01-24 19:33   ` Arthur Evans Jr
     [not found]     ` <egYth.15026$w91.10597@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net>
2007-01-25 22:34       ` Jeffrey R. Carter
2007-01-25 22:55         ` Robert A Duff
2007-01-26 19:59           ` Jeffrey R. Carter
2007-01-27  3:54         ` Randy Brukardt
2007-01-24  0:12 ` JPWoodruff
2007-01-24 10:32   ` gautier_niouzes
2007-01-25  1:01   ` Alexander E. Kopilovich
2007-01-26  5:01     ` JPWoodruff
2007-03-05  2:19 ` Brian May
  -- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2007-02-10  4:18 Randy Brukardt
2007-02-10  9:15 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2007-02-10 13:22   ` Robert A Duff
2007-02-10 15:54     ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2007-02-12 14:23       ` Robert A Duff
2007-02-12 15:49         ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
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