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From: "Hyman Rosen" <hyman.rosen@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: AdaCore ... the Next SCO?
Date: 18 Jul 2006 07:22:11 -0700
Date: 2006-07-18T07:22:11-07:00	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <1153232531.124342.293270@s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: 1153220326.967685.309610@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com

Ludovic Brenta wrote:
> The reasons why the headers have no legal force
...
> I think that AdaCore could successfully convince a
> court that they are indeed the copyright holder.

The natural mistake people here (and ACT as well) are making is to
assume that law works like computers. For example, you are recommending
technological solutions to ward off "spoofing attacks" on the license
and copyright of programs.

That's not how things work. In law, especially in license and contract
disputes, the assumption is that everyone is honest and that things
mean what they say. People wind up in court over disputes in meaning
and interpretation. Deliberate dishonesty and fraud is a much rarer
thing. Furthermore, law accomodates itself to the way things are.
Should a licensing dispute about Ada generic packages wind up in court,
it will be demonstrated that there are many open source libraries
available on the internet, and that it's routine to download them and
aggregate them under the terms of the licenses they contain in their
headers and associated license files. It will also be demonstrated that
for many of the libraries that ACT supplies and claims are distributed
only under the GPL, there are either identical or ancestral versions
available elsewhere with the extra exemption. The onus will be on ACT
to explain why, if they wished to change the license terms, they did
not follow normal practice and indicate the changed terms in the files
they distribute. The answer is going to be laziness or attempted
entrapment, and neither will sit well with the court.

Dewar's comments are those of a cautious (Ada!) programmer - he says
that since you have no way of knowing who might have altered the
headers of the files, you cannot trust them and so they are irrelevant,
and therefore they should be ignored, regardless of what they say. A
lawyer would laugh at this. A lawyer's assumption would be that things
must mean what they say and say what they mean. Regardless of whether
someone down the road might fraudulently alter the license of a file,
it is the responsibility of the distributors to make sure that the
license terms are given clearly and unambiguously if they intend to
later enforce their ownership rights. You've all seen the automatic
disclaimers that company lawyers attach to outgoing e-mails, the
warning labels on possibly dangerous products, and so on. Do you really
think that a lawyer would sanction sending out files that contain
deliberate misstatements of their licensing terms? It's laughable.




  parent reply	other threads:[~2006-07-18 14:22 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 171+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2006-06-27 10:58 Ada in Debian: most libraries will switch to the pure GPL in Etch Ludovic Brenta
2006-06-27 11:48 ` AdaCore ... the Next SCO? Jeffrey Creem
2006-06-27 13:13   ` Ludovic Brenta
2006-06-27 15:16     ` M E Leypold
2006-06-28 20:14       ` Simon Wright
2006-06-28 20:26         ` Ludovic Brenta
2006-06-27 16:38     ` Martin Krischik
2006-06-27 17:58       ` Georg Bauhaus
2006-06-28  0:24         ` M E Leypold
2006-06-28  6:09           ` Simon Wright
2006-06-28  7:45             ` Martin Krischik
2006-06-28 13:07               ` M E Leypold
2006-06-29 17:07                 ` Martin Krischik
2006-06-29 22:26                   ` Simon Wright
2006-06-30 16:46                     ` Martin Krischik
2006-07-01  8:20                       ` Georg Bauhaus
2006-07-02 12:10                         ` Martin Krischik
2006-06-28 20:26               ` Simon Wright
2006-06-29 17:45           ` Stephen Leake
2006-06-30  8:55             ` M E Leypold
2006-06-28  7:28         ` Martin Krischik
2006-06-28  8:07           ` No relicense everything now! (was: Re: AdaCore ... the Next SCO?) Georg Bauhaus
2006-06-28 13:14             ` M E Leypold
2006-06-29 17:53           ` AdaCore ... the Next SCO? Stephen Leake
2006-06-29 20:31             ` Jeffrey R. Carter
2006-06-30  8:40               ` M E Leypold
2006-06-30 15:19               ` Stephen Leake
2006-06-29 22:06             ` Jeffrey Creem
2006-06-30  8:46               ` M E Leypold
2006-06-30 15:21               ` Stephen Leake
2006-06-28  0:18       ` M E Leypold
2006-06-28 20:12         ` Ludovic Brenta
2006-06-28 22:45           ` M E Leypold
2006-06-28 21:54         ` Björn Persson
2006-06-28 22:57           ` M E Leypold
2006-06-28  6:06       ` Simon Wright
2006-06-28  7:49         ` Martin Krischik
2006-06-29 17:43       ` Stephen Leake
2006-06-27 23:10     ` Jeffrey Creem
2006-06-28  2:23       ` M E Leypold
2006-06-29 17:40     ` Stephen Leake
2006-06-27 15:00   ` M E Leypold
2006-06-27 18:49     ` Georg Bauhaus
2006-06-28  0:06       ` M E Leypold
2006-07-03 22:22         ` Hyman Rosen
2006-07-03 23:58           ` M E Leypold
2006-07-04 10:19             ` Georg Bauhaus
2006-07-04 22:13               ` M E Leypold
2006-07-04 18:55             ` Hyman Rosen
2006-07-04 20:29               ` Simon Wright
2006-07-04 22:34                 ` M E Leypold
2006-07-04 22:20               ` M E Leypold
2006-07-14 13:11                 ` Hyman Rosen
2006-07-14 15:14                   ` michael bode
2006-07-14 19:58                   ` M E Leypold
2006-07-17 20:13                     ` Hyman Rosen
2006-07-17 21:24                       ` Michael Bode
2006-07-17 22:23                         ` Hyman Rosen
2006-07-18  0:38                           ` M E Leypold
2006-07-18  7:40                             ` michael bode
2006-07-18 10:22                               ` Georg Bauhaus
2006-07-18 11:55                                 ` michael bode
2006-07-18 19:46                                   ` Georg Bauhaus
2006-07-18 19:55                                     ` Michael Bode
2006-07-18 10:58                               ` Ludovic Brenta
2006-07-18 11:35                                 ` Revocable or non-revocable licenses from AdaCore? (Re: AdaCore ... the Next SCO?) Jacob Sparre Andersen
2006-07-18 20:37                                   ` Samuel Tardieu
2006-07-18 12:55                                 ` AdaCore ... the Next SCO? michael bode
2006-07-18 13:26                                   ` Marius Amado-Alves
2006-07-18 19:11                                     ` Michael Bode
2006-07-18 20:33                                       ` Ludovic Brenta
2006-07-20 21:55                                     ` Björn Persson
2006-07-18 14:22                                 ` Hyman Rosen [this message]
2006-06-28 14:27       ` Preben Randhol
2006-06-28 15:22         ` Georg Bauhaus
2006-06-28 15:36         ` M E Leypold
2006-06-28 20:18         ` Ludovic Brenta
2006-06-29  7:09           ` Preben Randhol
2006-06-29 20:01         ` Björn Persson
2006-06-30  8:52           ` M E Leypold
2006-07-03 22:02         ` Hyman Rosen
2006-07-03 23:55           ` M E Leypold
2006-07-04 18:07           ` Michael Bode
2006-07-04 22:18             ` M E Leypold
2006-07-18 10:18           ` Jacob Sparre Andersen
2006-06-28  5:58   ` Simon Wright
2006-06-28 13:04     ` M E Leypold
2006-06-29 22:46       ` Simon Wright
2006-06-30  7:01         ` Martin Dowie
2006-07-01  8:48           ` Simon Wright
2006-06-30  8:39         ` M E Leypold
2006-07-01  8:58           ` Simon Wright
2006-06-27 13:46 ` Ada in Debian: most libraries will switch to the pure GPL in Etch Alex R. Mosteo
2006-06-27 14:40 ` M E Leypold
2006-06-27 14:52   ` What luck we had M E Leypold
2006-06-27 19:13     ` Pascal Obry
2006-06-28 13:39       ` Preben Randhol
2006-06-28 19:20         ` Michael Bode
2006-06-27 20:40     ` Jeffrey R. Carter
2006-06-28  0:02       ` M E Leypold
2006-06-27 18:57   ` Ada in Debian: most libraries will switch to the pure GPL in Etch Ed Falis
2006-06-28  0:58     ` M E Leypold
2006-06-28 19:45       ` Ludovic Brenta
2006-06-27 21:10   ` Ludovic Brenta
2006-06-28  1:02     ` M E Leypold
2006-06-27 15:00 ` Dr. Adrian Wrigley
2006-06-27 15:28   ` Ludovic Brenta
2006-06-27 15:38     ` M E Leypold
2006-06-27 16:40     ` Dr. Adrian Wrigley
2006-06-27 17:45       ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2006-06-27 21:18       ` Ludovic Brenta
2006-06-28  0:45         ` M E Leypold
2006-06-28  0:48         ` M E Leypold
2006-06-28 10:51         ` Dr. Adrian Wrigley
2006-06-28 11:14           ` Georg Bauhaus
2006-06-28 11:21             ` Georg Bauhaus
2006-06-28 12:41               ` Ludovic Brenta
2006-06-28 13:36             ` M E Leypold
2006-06-28 13:31           ` M E Leypold
2006-06-28  0:42       ` M E Leypold
2006-06-28 19:24       ` Simon Wright
2006-06-28 23:00         ` M E Leypold
2006-06-27 18:50     ` Michael Bode
2006-06-28  0:50       ` M E Leypold
2006-06-27 19:25     ` Michael Bode
2006-06-28  0:52       ` M E Leypold
2006-06-27 19:39     ` Florian Weimer
2006-06-27 20:47       ` Ludovic Brenta
2006-06-28  0:53         ` M E Leypold
2006-06-28 18:57         ` Florian Weimer
2006-06-28 13:50     ` Preben Randhol
2006-06-28 14:16       ` Georg Bauhaus
2006-06-28 19:14         ` Georg Bauhaus
2006-06-28 19:55           ` Ludovic Brenta
2006-06-28 19:54       ` Ludovic Brenta
2006-06-29  6:12       ` Ole-Hjalmar Kristensen
2006-06-28 19:22     ` Simon Wright
2006-06-27 18:39 ` Michael Bode
2006-06-27 19:28   ` Georg Bauhaus
2006-06-27 19:39     ` Michael Bode
2006-06-27 20:09       ` Georg Bauhaus
2006-06-27 20:23         ` Michael Bode
2006-06-27 20:53           ` Georg Bauhaus
2006-06-27 22:53             ` Björn Persson
2006-06-28  5:11               ` Georg Bauhaus
2006-06-28  1:29             ` M E Leypold
2006-06-28  1:18         ` M E Leypold
2006-06-28  6:07         ` Michael Bode
2006-06-28 17:58           ` Frank J. Lhota
2006-06-28 18:17             ` Ed Falis
2006-06-28 18:55             ` Florian Weimer
2006-06-30 19:55               ` Preben Randhol
2006-06-28 18:57             ` Georg Bauhaus
2006-06-28 19:28               ` Frank J. Lhota
2006-06-28 19:38                 ` Michael Bode
2006-06-28 19:17             ` Michael Bode
2006-06-28 20:48             ` Florian Weimer
2006-06-28  1:07     ` M E Leypold
2006-06-27 21:07   ` Ludovic Brenta
2006-06-27 21:19     ` Michael Bode
2006-06-28  1:40       ` M E Leypold
2006-06-28  1:35     ` M E Leypold
2006-06-28 11:57   ` Florian Weimer
2006-06-28 18:45     ` Michael Bode
2006-06-28 19:51     ` Ludovic Brenta
2006-06-28 20:46       ` Florian Weimer
2006-06-28 23:06         ` M E Leypold
2006-06-27 22:44 ` Simon Wright
2006-07-03 18:21 ` Matthew Goulet
2006-07-04  7:21   ` Ludovic Brenta
     [not found] <475ECA93-5C51-40D2-90CB-9DA9D4ECE1D9@amado-alves.info>
2006-07-18 22:02 ` AdaCore ... the Next SCO? Marius Amado-Alves
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