* Re: Effect of Gender in Learning Ada [not found] <mailman.23.1051336825.13478.comp.lang.ada@ada.eu.org> @ 2003-04-26 11:01 ` Preben Randhol 2003-04-26 15:37 ` chris.danx 2003-04-26 15:37 ` Effect of Gender in Learning Ada - OT Peter Richtmyer 0 siblings, 2 replies; 14+ messages in thread From: Preben Randhol @ 2003-04-26 11:01 UTC (permalink / raw) Robert C. Leif wrote: > > Is there any data on the relative grades of males vs. females in > learning Ada or other programming languages? A real problem exists in > the decrease in the proportion of female programmers and/or software > engineers. Decrease? I thought the number was increasing? > If there is any dimorphism between the genders, I would > suspect that woman might have the advantage. At least in US society, > organization, neatness, and capacity for verbal and written > expression are not preferentially associated with college age males. > However in US society, risk taking and impatience are associated with > college age males. I have a gut feeling that the use of C and its > dialects for the introductory programming language may turn off the > ladies. It is stupid to use C in any introductory programming course IMHO. There has been studies to show that female students was more practical in relations to computers. I mean they don't care how much RAM, Hz etc. but that the job gets done. I heard once a story from a university where the male students mainly chose to use C while the female chose lisp or some other high level programming language to solve an assignment. The female students got the job done fast and on time, while the male mainly didn't make the deadline or they couldn't deliver solutions to the whole assignment. However one should of course never generalise these things. How the situation is now I don't know, but you should be able to find social / anthropological studies of these things I think. In my view C has the same problems as premature optimisation of source code. > I should note that the purpose of this posting is neither to start an > argument nor to propose a hypothesis. It is a request for data. And please turn off HTML when you post to usenet. -- Preben Randhol http://www.pvv.org/~randhol/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* Re: Effect of Gender in Learning Ada 2003-04-26 11:01 ` Effect of Gender in Learning Ada Preben Randhol @ 2003-04-26 15:37 ` chris.danx 2003-04-26 15:37 ` Effect of Gender in Learning Ada - OT Peter Richtmyer 1 sibling, 0 replies; 14+ messages in thread From: chris.danx @ 2003-04-26 15:37 UTC (permalink / raw) Preben Randhol wrote: > Robert C. Leif wrote: > >>Is there any data on the relative grades of males vs. females in >>learning Ada or other programming languages? A real problem exists in >>the decrease in the proportion of female programmers and/or software >>engineers. > > > Decrease? I thought the number was increasing? So did I... If it is decreasing perhaps it's just stateside? Perhaps it's also due to the economy? I know alot of people who are considering non-programming and non-SE careers now, and they haven't even graduated yet. I'm certainly considering something other than Software Development (multimed, DB, . Given the evident (& regretable) gap in pay in the uk between women and men, it's concievable women are less inclined to go for SE/programming jobs or courses. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* Re: Effect of Gender in Learning Ada - OT 2003-04-26 11:01 ` Effect of Gender in Learning Ada Preben Randhol 2003-04-26 15:37 ` chris.danx @ 2003-04-26 15:37 ` Peter Richtmyer 2003-04-26 15:45 ` Chad R. Meiners ` (2 more replies) 1 sibling, 3 replies; 14+ messages in thread From: Peter Richtmyer @ 2003-04-26 15:37 UTC (permalink / raw) Preben Randhol <randhol+news@pvv.org> wrote in message news:<slrnbakpn5.ht.randhol+news@kiuk0152.chembio.ntnu.no>... > However one should of course never generalise these things. "In general" one must generalize about almost all things. I am not an expert on learning or cognitive processes, but it is clear to me that we can not process information and survive without generalizing. We generalize about C programmers, liberals, hockey players, SARS patients, doctors, WMD, country-and-western musicians, pit bulls, anti-gunners, priests, etc. What we should not do is apply the generalization to a specific individual person or thing indiscriminantly: Oh, he is an Ada programmer so he must be ... I suspect that is what most people probably mean when they make a statement against generalizing. I feel silly stating (to me) the obvious, but I get chills when I see a statement about "not generalizing" like the above. It seems like some PC "knee-jerk" thing to make that disclaimer. Should I don the asbestos suit? peace :-) Peter PS - I don't care if there are more or less of a gender in SW unless: -- it is costing me money -- there is something illegal or immoral going on And I do not want my tax money spent trying to get "even parity" in programming (or back hoe operators or ...) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* Re: Effect of Gender in Learning Ada - OT 2003-04-26 15:37 ` Effect of Gender in Learning Ada - OT Peter Richtmyer @ 2003-04-26 15:45 ` Chad R. Meiners 2003-04-26 16:53 ` Preben Randhol 2003-04-26 22:14 ` Frode Tennebø 2 siblings, 0 replies; 14+ messages in thread From: Chad R. Meiners @ 2003-04-26 15:45 UTC (permalink / raw) "Peter Richtmyer" <prichtmyer@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:1b585154.0304260737.154758a4@posting.google.com... > I feel silly stating (to me) the obvious, but I get chills when I > see a statement about "not generalizing" like the above. It seems > like some PC "knee-jerk" thing to make that disclaimer. > > Should I don the asbestos suit? Probably not. In my experience the majority of people I know agree with you about generalizations. ;) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* Re: Effect of Gender in Learning Ada - OT 2003-04-26 15:37 ` Effect of Gender in Learning Ada - OT Peter Richtmyer 2003-04-26 15:45 ` Chad R. Meiners @ 2003-04-26 16:53 ` Preben Randhol 2003-04-26 23:24 ` Peter Richtmyer 2003-04-26 22:14 ` Frode Tennebø 2 siblings, 1 reply; 14+ messages in thread From: Preben Randhol @ 2003-04-26 16:53 UTC (permalink / raw) Peter Richtmyer wrote: > I feel silly stating (to me) the obvious, but I get chills when I > see a statement about "not generalizing" like the above. It seems > like some PC "knee-jerk" thing to make that disclaimer. I get chills when I listen to people who only perceives the world in black and white. -- Preben Randhol http://www.pvv.org/~randhol/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* Re: Effect of Gender in Learning Ada - OT 2003-04-26 16:53 ` Preben Randhol @ 2003-04-26 23:24 ` Peter Richtmyer 0 siblings, 0 replies; 14+ messages in thread From: Peter Richtmyer @ 2003-04-26 23:24 UTC (permalink / raw) Preben Randhol <randhol+news@pvv.org> wrote in message news:<slrnbaleci.3fp.randhol+news@kiuk0152.chembio.ntnu.no>... > I get chills when I listen to people who only perceives the world in > black and white. Hey, me too. This might be the start of a ... :-) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* Re: Effect of Gender in Learning Ada - OT 2003-04-26 15:37 ` Effect of Gender in Learning Ada - OT Peter Richtmyer 2003-04-26 15:45 ` Chad R. Meiners 2003-04-26 16:53 ` Preben Randhol @ 2003-04-26 22:14 ` Frode Tennebø 2003-04-26 23:41 ` Robin KAY 2 siblings, 1 reply; 14+ messages in thread From: Frode Tennebø @ 2003-04-26 22:14 UTC (permalink / raw) On Saturday 26 April 2003 17:37 Peter Richtmyer wrote: > PS - I don't care if there are more or less of a gender in SW unless: > -- it is costing me money > -- there is something illegal or immoral going on > > And I do not want my tax money spent trying to get "even parity" > in programming (or back hoe operators or ...) "My tax money". Are you making deposits and counting? :) You would if it meant a greater probability of safer software being installed in the planes you fly or the subways you take, wouldn't you? -Frode -- ^ Frode Tenneb� | email: frode@tennebo.com | Frode@IRC ^ | with Standard.Disclaimer; use Standard.Disclaimer; | ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* Re: Effect of Gender in Learning Ada - OT 2003-04-26 22:14 ` Frode Tennebø @ 2003-04-26 23:41 ` Robin KAY 2003-04-27 0:19 ` Frode Tennebø 2003-04-27 2:57 ` tmoran 0 siblings, 2 replies; 14+ messages in thread From: Robin KAY @ 2003-04-26 23:41 UTC (permalink / raw) Frode Tenneb� wrote: > On Saturday 26 April 2003 17:37 Peter Richtmyer wrote: > >> PS - I don't care if there are more or less of a gender in SW unless: >> -- it is costing me money >> -- there is something illegal or immoral going on >> >> And I do not want my tax money spent trying to get "even parity" >> in programming > [snip] > You would if it meant a greater probability of safer software being > installed in the planes you fly or the subways you take, wouldn't you? But it doesn't mean that at all, rather the opposite. People should be hired purely based on their ability to do the job. When you start to push for numerical parity among the sexes (, races, etc.) for it's own sake you undermine that goal. Fighting illegal/immoral discrimination is one thing, but there's a very fine line between that and say, throwing out your top applicant because you need meet your quota on red haired (^_^) employees. Quotas are a form of discrimination in themselves - a legal one perhaps, but dubiously moral and nothing that will make the software in planes or underground trains any safer. -- Wishing you good fortune, --Robin Kay-- (komadori) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* Re: Effect of Gender in Learning Ada - OT 2003-04-26 23:41 ` Robin KAY @ 2003-04-27 0:19 ` Frode Tennebø 2003-04-27 12:42 ` Robin KAY 2003-04-27 2:57 ` tmoran 1 sibling, 1 reply; 14+ messages in thread From: Frode Tennebø @ 2003-04-27 0:19 UTC (permalink / raw) On Sunday 27 April 2003 01:41 Robin KAY wrote: > Frode Tenneb� wrote: > >> You would if it meant a greater probability of safer software being >> installed in the planes you fly or the subways you take, wouldn't >> you? > > But it doesn't mean that at all, rather the opposite. People should be > hired purely based on their ability to do the job. Which, sometimes, may depend on their sex. "hired purely based on their ability" is not very objective. Also, if two candidates, one male and one female, had identical "abilities to do the job", _I_ would chose, independent of quotas, the female candidate purely based on the not-documented-but-in-my-experience effect of, on average, females outperform males in the field of engineering. > Quotas are a form of discrimination in themselves - a > legal one perhaps, but dubiously moral and nothing that will make the > software in planes or underground trains any safer. Have you worked in an all-male environment (dislaimer: Robin being a vry neutral name)? The only thing worse is perhaps an all-female environment (or so have I been told). :) Even if all those males possessed better abilities than their female rivals, I would never have such a composition in my (hypothetical) department. -Frode -- ^ Frode Tenneb� | email: frode@tennebo.com | Frode@IRC ^ | with Standard.Disclaimer; use Standard.Disclaimer; | ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* Re: Effect of Gender in Learning Ada - OT 2003-04-27 0:19 ` Frode Tennebø @ 2003-04-27 12:42 ` Robin KAY 2003-04-27 18:06 ` Peter Richtmyer 0 siblings, 1 reply; 14+ messages in thread From: Robin KAY @ 2003-04-27 12:42 UTC (permalink / raw) Frode Tenneb� wrote: > On Sunday 27 April 2003 01:41 Robin KAY wrote: > >> Frode Tenneb� wrote: >> >>> You would if it meant a greater probability of safer software being >>> installed in the planes you fly or the subways you take, wouldn't >>> you? >> >> But it doesn't mean that at all, rather the opposite. People should be >> hired purely based on their ability to do the job. > > Which, sometimes, may depend on their sex. "hired purely based on their > ability" is not very objective. Also, if two candidates, one male and > one female, had identical "abilities to do the job", _I_ would chose, > independent of quotas, the female candidate purely based on the > not-documented-but-in-my-experience effect of, on average, females > outperform males in the field of engineering. Ability can be measured objectively, at least to some extent. On the other hand, selecting a candidate based (at least in part) on their sex is subjective, influenced by whether you believe that a particular sex is superior or inferior at performing a certain task. In practice it may be necessary to sometimes make such educated gueses, but still I regret its necessity. >> Quotas are a form of discrimination in themselves - a >> legal one perhaps, but dubiously moral and nothing that will make the >> software in planes or underground trains any safer. > > Have you worked in an all-male environment (dislaimer: Robin being a vry > neutral name)? The only thing worse is perhaps an all-female > environment (or so have I been told). :) Even if all those males > possessed better abilities than their female rivals, I would never have > such a composition in my (hypothetical) department. Given that the abilities of an average male and female candidate are roughly equal, then a fair and non-discrimatory hiring process should result in roughly equal numbers of male and female empolyees. A single sex enviroment of any significant size is indicitive of something having gone wrong. -- Wishing you good fortune, --Robin Kay-- (komadori) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* Re: Effect of Gender in Learning Ada - OT 2003-04-27 12:42 ` Robin KAY @ 2003-04-27 18:06 ` Peter Richtmyer 2003-04-27 20:41 ` Robin KAY 0 siblings, 1 reply; 14+ messages in thread From: Peter Richtmyer @ 2003-04-27 18:06 UTC (permalink / raw) Robin KAY <komadori@myrealbox.com> wrote in message news:<1051447321.38985.0@iapetus.uk.clara.net>... > Given that the abilities of an average male and female candidate are > roughly equal, then a fair and non-discrimatory hiring process should > result in roughly equal numbers of male and female empolyees. A single > sex enviroment of any significant size is indicitive of something having > gone wrong. These topics are very complex... let me just expound a bit more. "Given that" - Above, do you mean "Assuming that" or "Since it has been proved that"? Is it hypothesis or fact? "Abilities" - to do what? Get good grades? Impress the hiring agents? Or to effectively produce as a good team member? I have seen lots of people with "abilities" to work, cramming 4 hours of so-so work into 8 hours, and being praised for what they do (really for how the "look"). Measurement is VERY difficult. Robin's first sentence above, instead of "equal numbers", should (IMHO) be "numbers proportionate to the applicant pool" or something to that effect. Though I still do not agree that every software group (or any group) must be proportionate to the applicant pool on the basis of gender, race, ethnicity, (dis)ability, religous (un)affiliation and sexual preference. Isn't that the total package? Or did I leave out any criteria? Robin's last sentence above should (IMHO) have a "possibly" between "is" and "indicative". So many factors ... enough for now :-) Peter ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* Re: Effect of Gender in Learning Ada - OT 2003-04-27 18:06 ` Peter Richtmyer @ 2003-04-27 20:41 ` Robin KAY 0 siblings, 0 replies; 14+ messages in thread From: Robin KAY @ 2003-04-27 20:41 UTC (permalink / raw) Peter Richtmyer wrote: > Robin KAY <komadori@myrealbox.com> wrote in message > news:<1051447321.38985.0@iapetus.uk.clara.net>... [snip] >> A single >> sex enviroment of any significant size is indicitive of something having >> gone wrong. > > These topics are very complex... let me just expound a bit more. [snip] What I was trying to say was that assuming that the sexes are roughly on average equal in abilities and given a fair and non-discrimatory hiring process the probability of employees of only a single sex being hired is low. Therefore (IMHO) the disadvantages[1] of a quota system outweigh the advantage of preventing a single sex environment in the few situations where it might occur under a fair and non-discrimatory hiring process. My (evidently badly worded) comment was solely directed at Frode's implication[2] that quotas were needed in order to prevent single sex enivronments. [1] a) reduced quality of employees becuase meeting quotas must be taken into account as well the ability of candidates, and b) belief (either by themselves or by coworkers) that employees who count towards a quota might not have been hired otherwise. [2] Frode said "Have you worked in an all-male environment? The only thing worse is perhaps an all-female environment" in response to "Quotas are a form of discrimination in themselves". > Though I still do not agree that every software group (or any group) > must be proportionate to the applicant pool on the basis of ... Neither do I, though I can see how you might have misread that from my reply to Frode. I was only saying that the make up of the employee pool is likely to resemble that of the applicant pool. If you have you two sexes in the applicant pool but only one sex in the employee pool then it suggests something fishy is going on (e.g. someone's been dumping synthetic estrogens in the water *bad pun* ^_^'). > Robin's last sentence above should (IMHO) have a "possibly" between > "is" and "indicative". So many factors ... I was using 'indicative' in a suggestive sense. > enough for now :-) Yes ^_^'. -- Wishing you good fortune, --Robin Kay-- (komadori) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* Re: Effect of Gender in Learning Ada - OT 2003-04-26 23:41 ` Robin KAY 2003-04-27 0:19 ` Frode Tennebø @ 2003-04-27 2:57 ` tmoran 2003-04-27 12:38 ` Robin KAY 1 sibling, 1 reply; 14+ messages in thread From: tmoran @ 2003-04-27 2:57 UTC (permalink / raw) Sheesh, to some people *all* questions must be political. I really, really, doubt that Bob Leif was planning to propose gender, hair color, or any consideration other than ability, for hiring programmers. The question was whether there is any data available on the average grades people get in programming class, as a function of gender and language. Such averages would not be very useful in a single hiring decision, but it might, or might not, turn out to be helpful for language advocacy (and perhaps for language design). ---------------------------------------- Observation trumps belief. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* Re: Effect of Gender in Learning Ada - OT 2003-04-27 2:57 ` tmoran @ 2003-04-27 12:38 ` Robin KAY 0 siblings, 0 replies; 14+ messages in thread From: Robin KAY @ 2003-04-27 12:38 UTC (permalink / raw) tmoran@acm.org wrote: > I really, really, doubt that Bob Leif was planning to propose gender, hair > color, or any consideration other than ability, for hiring programmers. I wasn't replying to Robert (Bob?) Leif's original question but rather to Frode's suggestion that government enforcement/encouragement of even numerical parity between the sexes would increase the quality of software in safety critical applications. -- Wishing you good fortune, --Robin Kay-- (komadori) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2003-04-27 20:41 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 14+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed) -- links below jump to the message on this page -- [not found] <mailman.23.1051336825.13478.comp.lang.ada@ada.eu.org> 2003-04-26 11:01 ` Effect of Gender in Learning Ada Preben Randhol 2003-04-26 15:37 ` chris.danx 2003-04-26 15:37 ` Effect of Gender in Learning Ada - OT Peter Richtmyer 2003-04-26 15:45 ` Chad R. Meiners 2003-04-26 16:53 ` Preben Randhol 2003-04-26 23:24 ` Peter Richtmyer 2003-04-26 22:14 ` Frode Tennebø 2003-04-26 23:41 ` Robin KAY 2003-04-27 0:19 ` Frode Tennebø 2003-04-27 12:42 ` Robin KAY 2003-04-27 18:06 ` Peter Richtmyer 2003-04-27 20:41 ` Robin KAY 2003-04-27 2:57 ` tmoran 2003-04-27 12:38 ` Robin KAY
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