Re: Effect of Gender in Learning Ada

Re: Effect of Gender in Learning Ada

[Preben Randhol]

Robert C. Leif wrote:
> 
> Is there any data on the relative grades of males vs. females in 
> learning Ada or other programming languages? A real problem exists in
> the decrease in the proportion of female programmers and/or software
> engineers. 

Decrease? I thought the number was increasing?

> If there is any dimorphism between the genders, I would
> suspect that woman might have the advantage. At least in US society,
> organization, neatness, and capacity for verbal and written
> expression are not preferentially associated with college age males.
> However in US society, risk taking and impatience are associated with
> college age males. I have a gut feeling that the use of C and its
> dialects for the introductory programming language may turn off the
> ladies.

It is stupid to use C in any introductory programming course IMHO.

There has been studies to show that female students was more practical
in relations to computers. I mean they don't care how much RAM, Hz etc.
but that the job gets done. I heard once a story from a university where
the male students mainly  chose to use C while the female chose lisp or
some other high level programming language to solve an assignment. The
female students got the job done fast and on time, while the male mainly
didn't make the deadline or they couldn't deliver solutions to the whole
assignment. However one should of course never generalise these things.
How the situation is now I don't know, but you should be able to find
social / anthropological studies of these things I think.

In my view C has the same problems as premature optimisation of source
code.

> I should note that the purpose of this posting is neither to start an
> argument nor to propose a hypothesis. It is a request for data.

And please turn off HTML when you post to usenet.

-- 
Preben Randhol                    http://www.pvv.org/~randhol/

Re: Effect of Gender in Learning Ada

[chris.danx]

Preben Randhol wrote:
> Robert C. Leif wrote:
> 
>>Is there any data on the relative grades of males vs. females in 
>>learning Ada or other programming languages? A real problem exists in
>>the decrease in the proportion of female programmers and/or software
>>engineers. 
> 
> 
> Decrease? I thought the number was increasing?

So did I...  If it is decreasing perhaps it's just stateside?  Perhaps 
it's also due to the economy?  I know alot of people who are considering 
non-programming and non-SE careers now, and they haven't even graduated 
yet.  I'm certainly considering something other than Software 
Development (multimed, DB,  .  Given the evident (& regretable) gap in 
pay in the uk between women and men, it's concievable women are less 
inclined to go for SE/programming jobs or courses.

Re: Effect of Gender in Learning Ada - OT

[Peter Richtmyer]

Preben Randhol <randhol+news@pvv.org> wrote in message news:<slrnbakpn5.ht.randhol+news@kiuk0152.chembio.ntnu.no>...

> However one should of course never generalise these things.

"In general" one must generalize about almost all things. I am 
not an expert on learning or cognitive processes, but it is 
clear to me that we can not process information and survive 
without generalizing. 

We generalize about C programmers, liberals, hockey players,
SARS patients, doctors, WMD, country-and-western musicians, 
pit bulls, anti-gunners, priests, etc. 

What we should not do is apply the generalization to a specific
individual person or thing indiscriminantly:

    Oh, he is an Ada programmer so he must be ...

I suspect that is what most people probably mean when they make a
statement against generalizing.

I feel silly stating (to me) the obvious, but I get chills when I 
see a statement about "not generalizing" like the above. It seems
like some PC "knee-jerk" thing to make that disclaimer.

Should I don the asbestos suit?
peace  :-)

Peter

PS - I don't care if there are more or less of a gender in SW unless:
       -- it is costing me money
       -- there is something illegal or immoral going on

And I do not want my tax money spent trying to get "even parity"
in programming (or back hoe operators or ...)

Re: Effect of Gender in Learning Ada - OT

[Chad R. Meiners]

"Peter Richtmyer" <prichtmyer@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1b585154.0304260737.154758a4@posting.google.com...
> I feel silly stating (to me) the obvious, but I get chills when I
> see a statement about "not generalizing" like the above. It seems
> like some PC "knee-jerk" thing to make that disclaimer.
>
> Should I don the asbestos suit?

Probably not.  In my experience the majority of people I know agree with you
about generalizations. ;)

Re: Effect of Gender in Learning Ada - OT

[Preben Randhol]

Peter Richtmyer wrote:
> I feel silly stating (to me) the obvious, but I get chills when I 
> see a statement about "not generalizing" like the above. It seems
> like some PC "knee-jerk" thing to make that disclaimer.

I get chills when I listen to people who only perceives the world in
black and white.

-- 
Preben Randhol                    http://www.pvv.org/~randhol/

Re: Effect of Gender in Learning Ada - OT

[Peter Richtmyer]

Preben Randhol <randhol+news@pvv.org> wrote in message news:<slrnbaleci.3fp.randhol+news@kiuk0152.chembio.ntnu.no>...

> I get chills when I listen to people who only perceives the world in
> black and white.

Hey, me too. This might be the start of a ...     :-)

Re: Effect of Gender in Learning Ada - OT

[Frode Tennebø]

On Saturday 26 April 2003 17:37 Peter Richtmyer wrote:

> PS - I don't care if there are more or less of a gender in SW unless:
>        -- it is costing me money
>        -- there is something illegal or immoral going on
> 
> And I do not want my tax money spent trying to get "even parity"
> in programming (or back hoe operators or ...)

"My tax money". Are you making deposits and counting? :)

You would if it meant a greater probability of safer software being
installed in the planes you fly or the subways you take, wouldn't you? 

 -Frode

-- 
^ Frode Tenneb� | email: frode@tennebo.com | Frode@IRC ^
|  with Standard.Disclaimer; use Standard.Disclaimer;  |

Re: Effect of Gender in Learning Ada - OT

[Robin KAY]

Frode Tenneb� wrote:

> On Saturday 26 April 2003 17:37 Peter Richtmyer wrote:
>
>> PS - I don't care if there are more or less of a gender in SW unless:
>> -- it is costing me money
>> -- there is something illegal or immoral going on
>>
>> And I do not want my tax money spent trying to get "even parity"
>> in programming
>
[snip]

> You would if it meant a greater probability of safer software being
> installed in the planes you fly or the subways you take, wouldn't you?

But it doesn't mean that at all, rather the opposite. People should be 
hired purely based on their ability to do the job. When you start to 
push for numerical parity among the sexes (, races, etc.) for it's own 
sake you undermine that goal. Fighting illegal/immoral discrimination is 
one thing, but there's a very fine line between that and say, throwing 
out your top applicant because you need meet your quota on red haired 
(^_^) employees. Quotas are a form of discrimination in themselves - a 
legal one perhaps, but dubiously moral and nothing that will make the 
software in planes or underground trains any safer.

-- 
Wishing you good fortune,
--Robin Kay-- (komadori)

Re: Effect of Gender in Learning Ada - OT

[Frode Tennebø]

On Sunday 27 April 2003 01:41 Robin KAY wrote:

> Frode Tenneb� wrote:
> 
>> You would if it meant a greater probability of safer software being
>> installed in the planes you fly or the subways you take, wouldn't
>> you?
> 
> But it doesn't mean that at all, rather the opposite. People should be
> hired purely based on their ability to do the job.

Which, sometimes, may depend on their sex. "hired purely based on their
ability" is not very objective. Also, if two candidates, one male and
one female, had identical "abilities to do the job", _I_ would chose,
independent of quotas, the female candidate purely based on the
not-documented-but-in-my-experience effect of, on average, females
outperform males in the field of engineering.

> Quotas are a form of discrimination in themselves - a 
> legal one perhaps, but dubiously moral and nothing that will make the 
> software in planes or underground trains any safer.

Have you worked in an all-male environment (dislaimer: Robin being a vry
neutral name)? The only thing worse is perhaps an all-female
environment (or so have I been told). :) Even if all those males
possessed better abilities than their female rivals, I would never have
such a composition in my (hypothetical) department.

 -Frode
-- 
^ Frode Tenneb� | email: frode@tennebo.com | Frode@IRC ^
|  with Standard.Disclaimer; use Standard.Disclaimer;  |

Re: Effect of Gender in Learning Ada - OT

[Robin KAY]

Frode Tenneb� wrote:

> On Sunday 27 April 2003 01:41 Robin KAY wrote:
>
>> Frode Tenneb� wrote:
>>
>>> You would if it meant a greater probability of safer software being
>>> installed in the planes you fly or the subways you take, wouldn't
>>> you?
>>
>> But it doesn't mean that at all, rather the opposite. People should be
>> hired purely based on their ability to do the job.
>
> Which, sometimes, may depend on their sex. "hired purely based on their
> ability" is not very objective. Also, if two candidates, one male and
> one female, had identical "abilities to do the job", _I_ would chose,
> independent of quotas, the female candidate purely based on the
> not-documented-but-in-my-experience effect of, on average, females
> outperform males in the field of engineering.

Ability can be measured objectively, at least to some extent. On the 
other hand, selecting a candidate based (at least in part) on their sex 
is subjective, influenced by whether you believe that a particular sex 
is superior or inferior at performing a certain task. In practice it may 
be necessary to sometimes make such educated gueses, but still I regret 
its necessity.

>> Quotas are a form of discrimination in themselves - a
>> legal one perhaps, but dubiously moral and nothing that will make the
>> software in planes or underground trains any safer.
>
> Have you worked in an all-male environment (dislaimer: Robin being a vry
> neutral name)? The only thing worse is perhaps an all-female
> environment (or so have I been told). :) Even if all those males
> possessed better abilities than their female rivals, I would never have
> such a composition in my (hypothetical) department.

Given that the abilities of an average male and female candidate are 
roughly equal, then a fair and non-discrimatory hiring process should 
result in roughly equal numbers of male and female empolyees. A single 
sex enviroment of any significant size is indicitive of something having 
gone wrong.

-- 
Wishing you good fortune,
--Robin Kay-- (komadori)

Re: Effect of Gender in Learning Ada - OT

[Peter Richtmyer]

Robin KAY <komadori@myrealbox.com> wrote in message news:<1051447321.38985.0@iapetus.uk.clara.net>...

> Given that the abilities of an average male and female candidate are 
> roughly equal, then a fair and non-discrimatory hiring process should 
> result in roughly equal numbers of male and female empolyees. A single 
> sex enviroment of any significant size is indicitive of something having 
> gone wrong.

These topics are very complex... let me just expound a bit more.

"Given that" - Above, do you mean "Assuming that" or "Since it has
been proved that"? Is it hypothesis or fact?

"Abilities" - to do what? Get good grades? Impress the hiring agents?
Or to
effectively produce as a good team member? I have seen lots of people 
with "abilities" to work, cramming 4 hours of so-so work into 8 hours,
and
being praised for what they do (really for how the "look").
Measurement is
VERY difficult.

Robin's first sentence above, instead of "equal numbers", should
(IMHO) be
"numbers proportionate to the applicant pool" or something to that
effect.

Though I still do not agree that every software group (or any group)
must be proportionate to the applicant pool on the basis of gender,
race, ethnicity, (dis)ability, religous (un)affiliation and sexual
preference. Isn't that the
total package? Or did I leave out any criteria?

Robin's last sentence above should (IMHO) have a "possibly" between
"is"
and "indicative".  So many factors ...

enough for now   :-)
Peter

Re: Effect of Gender in Learning Ada - OT

[Robin KAY]

Peter Richtmyer wrote:

> Robin KAY <komadori@myrealbox.com> wrote in message 
> news:<1051447321.38985.0@iapetus.uk.clara.net>...

[snip]

>> A single
>> sex enviroment of any significant size is indicitive of something having
>> gone wrong.
>
> These topics are very complex... let me just expound a bit more.

[snip]

What I was trying to say was that assuming that the sexes are roughly on 
average equal in abilities and given a fair and non-discrimatory hiring 
process the probability of employees of only a single sex being hired is 
low. Therefore (IMHO) the disadvantages[1] of a quota system outweigh 
the advantage of preventing a single sex environment in the few 
situations where it might occur under a fair and non-discrimatory hiring 
process. My (evidently badly worded) comment was solely directed at 
Frode's implication[2] that quotas were needed in order to prevent 
single sex enivronments.

[1] a) reduced quality of employees becuase meeting quotas must be taken 
into account as well the ability of candidates, and b) belief (either by 
themselves or by coworkers) that employees who count towards a quota 
might not have been hired otherwise.

[2] Frode said "Have you worked in an all-male environment? The only 
thing worse is perhaps an all-female environment" in response to "Quotas 
are a form of discrimination in themselves".

> Though I still do not agree that every software group (or any group)
> must be proportionate to the applicant pool on the basis of ...

Neither do I, though I can see how you might have misread that from my 
reply to Frode. I was only saying that the make up of the employee pool 
is likely to resemble that of the applicant pool. If you have you two 
sexes in the applicant pool but only one sex in the employee pool then 
it suggests something fishy is going on (e.g. someone's been dumping 
synthetic estrogens in the water *bad pun* ^_^').

> Robin's last sentence above should (IMHO) have a "possibly" between
> "is" and "indicative". So many factors ...

I was using 'indicative' in a suggestive sense.

> enough for now :-)

Yes ^_^'.

-- 
Wishing you good fortune,
--Robin Kay-- (komadori)

Re: Effect of Gender in Learning Ada - OT

[tmoran]

Sheesh, to some people *all* questions must be political.
I really, really, doubt that Bob Leif was planning to propose gender, hair
color, or any consideration other than ability, for hiring programmers.
The question was whether there is any data available on the average grades
people get in programming class, as a function of gender and language.
Such averages would not be very useful in a single hiring decision, but it
might, or might not, turn out to be helpful for language advocacy (and
perhaps for language design).
----------------------------------------
Observation trumps belief.

Re: Effect of Gender in Learning Ada - OT

[Robin KAY]

tmoran@acm.org wrote:

> I really, really, doubt that Bob Leif was planning to propose gender, hair
> color, or any consideration other than ability, for hiring programmers.

I wasn't replying to Robert (Bob?) Leif's original question but rather 
to Frode's suggestion that government enforcement/encouragement of even 
numerical parity between the sexes would increase the quality of 
software in safety critical applications.

-- 
Wishing you good fortune,
--Robin Kay-- (komadori)