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From: "Robert I. Eachus" <rieachus@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Certified C compilers for safety-critical embedded systems
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2003 16:33:47 -0500
Date: 2003-12-27T16:33:47-05:00	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <0ridnTmiEKohZ3Ci4p2dnA@comcast.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <1riouv4pi49nqjl5r4vsn71bh69891ips7@4ax.com>

Alan Balmer wrote:

> That seems obvious. It's possible to write a C program with *no*
> residual errors. It may be easier to write a SPARK program with no
> residual errors, but there's no law that says C programs have to have
> more errors.

But is it possible to write a C program and an Ada program which 
implement the same algorithm with no residual errors?

My experience indicates that it is not.  This is not saying that you 
can't build an Ada to C translator, or a C to Ada translator, although 
the first has been done several times, and the second would be much 
harder.  The problem is that if I have a C program "in hand" and go to 
translate it into Ada, there are usually hundreds of questions that I 
end up asking.  Some of them may be answered in the specificiation for 
the C program--assuming that such a specification exists.

The net result is that even if I start out to write identical programs 
in C and Ada, the Ada program ends up much more tightly specified. 
Whether these additional specifications are meaningful in terms of the 
intent of the program, or are just "accidental" overspecification due to 
the fact that Ada asks the question and it is easier to answer it than 
dodge it, the Ada and C programs implement two different specifications. 
  (Or to be formal, the set of specifications that the C program 
satisfies will normally be a superset of those satisfied by the 
"equivalent" Ada program.)

Does this make the C program better?  I don't think so.  I am much more 
concerned that set of specifications satisfied includes the "real" 
specification, which often includes requirements omitted from the 
original written specification.  Ada does a much better job of 
identifying these implicit requirements and getting them formalized.

The best example of this problem doesn't involve Ada at all.  The French 
developed a programming language used for the Airbus A320, and it took 5 
crashes for omissions in the specification to be identified and fixed.

One problem was that the autopilot would maintain a specified hight 
above ground between waypoints until the last waypoint before landing. 
Then it would put the plane into the glidepath for the destination 
runway.  The problem occurred when the last waypoint set was not in the 
glide path, the 'correction' that occurred when the waypoint was passed 
could result in a stall, or in the case of a landing in mountainous 
territory diving to the glide path which was underground at the last way 
point.

Airbus originally diagnosed the cause of the crashes as the pilots 
selecting the 'wrong' descent mode.  But as I said, it was not pilot 
error, but a missing specification.  The glide path for the runway was 
assumed to be everywhere above ground.  More correctly it was assumed 
that the last waypoint would be the outer beacon for the intended 
runway.  But there are cases where that is not possible, and in those 
cases, the A320 could be deadly. And in the crash which resulted in the 
problem being detected, the outer marker beacon was situated on a 
mountain which extended into the glide path.

As far as I am concerned Airbus's contribution to the analysis of a 
crash near Strasbourg, France January 20, 1992 was criminal.  If you 
look at all the "weasel words" in retrospect, they knew that it couldn't 
have been the pilot error they suggested.  (Autopilot in wrong mode.) 
The "rapid" descent that left one second between the altitude warning 
and the crash was at over a 50% angle over descending terrain.  Somehow 
I don't think the flight crew "overlooked" the rapid descent--other than 
looking through the cockpit window below their feet.

As it was, it took two more crashes before an investigation concluded 
that at least two previous crashes, and probably all four were due to 
missing requirements in the specifications for the provably correct 
code.  For example, in the first crash at a French airshow, a lot of 
attention was focused on whether the engines spooled up "quick enough" 
when the crew selected abort/go around.  A later crash in Japan in a 
similar situation, but a "real" landing attempt showed that engine speed 
  wasn't the problem.  The Japanese plane didn't strike trees with its 
tail: "Finally, the engine stalled after the angle of ascent increased 
to 53 degrees, and the plane fell towards the ground, crashing 
tail-first."  As any pilot can tell you trying to increase altitude in 
any flight mode, but certainly when close to the ground, pulling the 
nose much above level is a deadly error. Beyond a certain AoA (angle of 
attack) the plane will slow down requiring more AoA (or throttle) to 
stay level. Go back and look at the first A320 crash, and it is clear 
that a human pilot would have not have increased the AoA to go around, 
and in (more) level flight the tail would not have hit the trees.

Sorry to spend so many electrons and photons on this, but it is an issue 
that should not be overlooked.  Formal proofs of correctness are 
worthless if the requirements are not complete.  I like a language that 
asks the questions that the specification forgot.
-- 
                                           Robert I. Eachus

"The war on terror is a different kind of war, waged capture by capture, 
cell by cell, and victory by victory. Our security is assured by our 
perseverance and by our sure belief in the success of liberty." -- 
George W. Bush




  reply	other threads:[~2003-12-27 21:33 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 465+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
     [not found] <3fe00b82.90228601@News.CIS.DFN.DE>
     [not found] ` <3FE026A8.3CD6A3A@yahoo.com>
     [not found]   ` <x0%Db.16$_l6.25998@news.uswest.net>
     [not found]     ` <3bf1uvg2ntadvahfud2rg6ujk24sora6gr@4ax.com>
     [not found]       ` <2u3auvogde8ktotlaq0ldiaska3g416gus@4ax.com>
     [not found]         ` <bs62ph$giu$1@newshost.mot.com>
     [not found]           ` <20619edc.0312221020.3fd1b4ee@posting.google.com>
     [not found]             ` <b5feuv06s2nmpakq0o1b7v0kpd450v3eli@4ax.com>
2003-12-23  5:06               ` Certified C compilers for safety-critical embedded systems Mike Silva
2003-12-23 15:44                 ` Alan Balmer
2003-12-23 19:32                   ` Mike Silva
2003-12-28  8:34                     ` Peter Amey
2003-12-28 15:05                       ` Chris Hills
2003-12-23 20:33                   ` Larry Kilgallen
2003-12-23 21:46                     ` Alan Balmer
2003-12-23 22:11                       ` Larry Kilgallen
2003-12-24 16:46                 ` Chris Hills
2003-12-24 18:22                   ` Alan Balmer
2003-12-24 20:35                     ` Chris Hills
2003-12-24 20:56                       ` Alan Balmer
2003-12-24 20:14                   ` Dave Hansen
2003-12-24 20:41                     ` Chris Hills
2003-12-24 22:19                       ` Dave Hansen
2003-12-26 10:44                         ` Chris Hills
2003-12-26 21:49                           ` Larry Kilgallen
2003-12-26 22:10                             ` Chris Hills
2003-12-26 23:20                               ` Robert A Duff
2003-12-27  5:29                                 ` James Rogers
2003-12-27  6:24                                   ` Jeff C,
2003-12-27  7:50                                     ` James Rogers
2003-12-28  1:00                                       ` CBFalconer
2003-12-28 23:06                                         ` Ian Bell
2003-12-27 15:27                                   ` Ian Bell
2003-12-27 16:47                                     ` Simon Wright
2003-12-27 17:08                                       ` Ian Bell
2003-12-27 21:32                                         ` Georg Bauhaus
2003-12-28 22:59                                           ` Ian Bell
2003-12-29  2:43                                             ` Robert I. Eachus
2003-12-29  7:43                                               ` Georg Bauhaus
2003-12-29 16:16                                                 ` Robert I. Eachus
2003-12-27 16:49                                     ` Georg Bauhaus
2003-12-27 17:10                                       ` Ian Bell
2003-12-27 19:54                                         ` Robert I. Eachus
2003-12-27 20:57                                         ` Georg Bauhaus
2003-12-27 17:34                                       ` Jeff C,
2003-12-27 15:34                                   ` Frank J. Lhota
2003-12-29 17:46                                   ` Dave Hansen
2003-12-29 21:13                                     ` Alex Colvin
2003-12-29 21:50                                       ` Hyman Rosen
2003-12-30 16:15                                       ` Martin Krischik
2003-12-30  1:53                                     ` James Rogers
2003-12-29  9:08                                 ` Peter Hermann
2003-12-26 23:47                               ` Larry Kilgallen
2003-12-26 16:52                       ` Martin Krischik
2003-12-26 18:42                         ` Hyman Rosen
2003-12-26 23:00                           ` Robert A Duff
2003-12-27 13:26                           ` Martin Krischik
2003-12-28 16:33                             ` Chris Hills
2003-12-29 17:46                               ` Dave Hansen
2003-12-30 10:18                                 ` Martin Krischik
2003-12-30 14:48                                   ` Dave Hansen
2003-12-30 17:08                                     ` Martin Krischik
2003-12-30 17:44                                       ` Hyman Rosen
2003-12-30 18:28                                         ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2003-12-30 22:26                                           ` Alexandre E. Kopilovitch
2003-12-30 21:15                                         ` CBFalconer
2003-12-30 21:30                                           ` Hyman Rosen
2003-12-31 10:41                                             ` Martin Krischik
2004-01-06 19:54                                         ` Martin Dowie
2003-12-30 17:59                                       ` Chris Hills
2003-12-30 18:27                                         ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2003-12-30 20:07                                         ` Martin Krischik
2003-12-30 18:31                                       ` CBFalconer
2003-12-30 19:20                                       ` Dave Hansen
2003-12-30 21:15                                         ` CBFalconer
2003-12-31  0:03                                           ` Dave Hansen
2003-12-31 14:27                                             ` Georg Bauhaus
2004-01-05 22:08                                               ` Dave Hansen
2004-01-05 22:36                                                 ` Stephen Leake
2004-01-06 13:54                                                   ` Frank J. Lhota
2004-01-06 14:14                                                     ` Jean-Pierre Rosen
2004-01-06 23:14                                                       ` Alexandre E. Kopilovitch
2004-01-06 23:59                                                         ` Robert I. Eachus
2004-01-07  0:51                                                       ` Stephen Leake
2004-01-07 12:24                                                         ` Martin Krischik
2004-01-07 12:56                                                       ` Marin David Condic
2004-01-07 13:39                                                         ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2004-01-07 14:21                                                         ` Stephen Leake
2004-01-07 23:35                                                           ` Robert A Duff
2004-01-08  3:32                                                             ` Alexandre E. Kopilovitch
2004-01-08  8:35                                                               ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2004-01-09  3:47                                                                 ` Alexandre E. Kopilovitch
2004-01-09  3:59                                                                   ` Hyman Rosen
2004-01-09 22:00                                                                     ` Robert A Duff
2004-01-10 22:48                                                                       ` Hyman Rosen
2004-01-08 16:46                                                               ` Robert A Duff
2004-01-08 17:50                                                                 ` Georg Bauhaus
2004-01-09  4:31                                                                 ` Alexandre E. Kopilovitch
2004-01-09 22:10                                                                   ` Robert A Duff
2004-01-10  3:44                                                                     ` Alexander Kopilovitch
2004-01-08 14:32                                                             ` Frank J. Lhota
2004-01-08 16:28                                                               ` Robert A Duff
2004-01-09 13:35                                                                 ` In-Out Parameters for functions (was: " Marin David Condic
2004-01-09 22:30                                                                   ` Robert A Duff
2004-01-09 23:38                                                                     ` Alexandre E. Kopilovitch
2004-01-23 14:01                                                                       ` In-Out Parameters for functions Wojtek Narczynski
2004-01-23 19:05                                                                         ` Alexandre E. Kopilovitch
2004-01-24 15:21                                                                           ` Wojtek Narczynski
2004-01-24 20:42                                                                             ` Alexandre E. Kopilovitch
2004-01-24 21:57                                                                               ` Robert A Duff
2004-01-25 21:02                                                                                 ` Alexandre E. Kopilovitch
2004-01-26 10:17                                                                                   ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2004-01-26 20:19                                                                                     ` Alexandre E. Kopilovitch
2004-01-27  9:22                                                                                       ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2004-01-26 14:06                                                                                   ` Wojtek Narczynski
2004-01-26 19:00                                                                                     ` Alexandre E. Kopilovitch
2004-01-27 10:24                                                                                       ` Wojtek Narczynski
2004-01-26 20:38                                                                                     ` Robert A Duff
2004-01-27 10:45                                                                                       ` Wojtek Narczynski
2004-01-26 23:12                                                                                   ` Robert A Duff
2004-01-26 23:24                                                                                     ` Hyman Rosen
2004-01-26 23:37                                                                                       ` Robert A Duff
2004-01-27  2:26                                                                                         ` Hyman Rosen
2004-01-27  8:18                                                                                           ` Stephen Leake
2004-01-27 17:37                                                                                             ` Hyman Rosen
2004-01-27 19:05                                                                                               ` David Starner
2004-01-27 19:31                                                                                                 ` Hyman Rosen
2004-01-27 20:06                                                                                               ` Robert A Duff
2004-01-28  9:29                                                                                                 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2004-01-28 15:20                                                                                                   ` Hyman Rosen
2004-01-29  9:08                                                                                                     ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2004-01-29 15:37                                                                                                       ` Hyman Rosen
2004-01-29 18:43                                                                                                         ` David Starner
2004-01-29 19:46                                                                                                           ` Hyman Rosen
2004-01-29 20:23                                                                                                             ` Georg Bauhaus
2004-01-29 21:36                                                                                                               ` Hyman Rosen
2004-01-30 17:39                                                                                                                 ` Georg Bauhaus
2004-01-30 18:14                                                                                                                   ` Hyman Rosen
2004-01-30 19:32                                                                                                                     ` Georg Bauhaus
2004-01-30 20:51                                                                                                                       ` Hyman Rosen
2004-01-30 23:25                                                                                                                         ` Georg Bauhaus
2004-01-31  0:07                                                                                                                         ` Robert I. Eachus
2004-01-29 23:52                                                                                                             ` David Starner
2004-01-30  3:02                                                                                                             ` Robert I. Eachus
2004-01-30 16:09                                                                                                               ` Hyman Rosen
2004-01-30 16:31                                                                                                                 ` Peter Amey
2004-01-30 19:20                                                                                                                   ` Hyman Rosen
2004-02-02 10:39                                                                                                                     ` Peter Amey
2004-01-31  1:03                                                                                                                 ` Robert I. Eachus
2004-01-30  9:53                                                                                                             ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2004-01-30 17:06                                                                                                               ` Hyman Rosen
2004-01-30 17:52                                                                                                                 ` David Starner
2004-01-30 20:28                                                                                                                   ` Hyman Rosen
2004-01-30 21:31                                                                                                                 ` Alexandre E. Kopilovitch
2004-02-01  4:10                                                                                                                   ` Hyman Rosen
2004-02-01 21:05                                                                                                                     ` David Starner
2004-02-01 21:55                                                                                                                       ` Hyman Rosen
2004-02-02  2:20                                                                                                                         ` David Starner
2004-02-02 14:36                                                                                                                           ` Hyman Rosen
2004-01-31  5:27                                                                                                                 ` Randy Brukardt
2004-02-01  4:02                                                                                                                   ` Hyman Rosen
2004-02-03  1:54                                                                                                                     ` Randy Brukardt
2004-02-03  3:07                                                                                                                       ` Hyman Rosen
2004-02-01  2:14                                                                                                                 ` cl1motorsports
2004-02-02  9:31                                                                                                                 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2004-02-02 14:33                                                                                                                   ` Hyman Rosen
2004-02-02 15:41                                                                                                                     ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2004-02-02 17:01                                                                                                                       ` Hyman Rosen
2004-02-03  8:54                                                                                                                         ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2004-02-03 14:06                                                                                                                           ` Hyman Rosen
2004-02-03 15:32                                                                                                                             ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2004-02-03 16:11                                                                                                                               ` Hyman Rosen
2004-02-03 23:04                                                                                                                                 ` David Starner
2004-02-03 23:38                                                                                                                                   ` Hyman Rosen
2004-02-04  1:54                                                                                                                                     ` David Starner
2004-02-04 14:54                                                                                                                                       ` Hyman Rosen
2004-02-04  3:56                                                                                                                                     ` Alexandre E. Kopilovitch
2004-02-05 13:32                                                                                                                                       ` Hyman Rosen
2004-02-04  7:00                                                                                                                                     ` Vinzent 'Gadget' Hoefler
2004-02-04 14:57                                                                                                                                       ` Hyman Rosen
2004-02-04 15:19                                                                                                                                         ` Vinzent 'Gadget' Hoefler
2004-02-04 15:52                                                                                                                                           ` Hyman Rosen
2004-02-04 16:36                                                                                                                                             ` Vinzent 'Gadget' Hoefler
2004-02-04 17:11                                                                                                                                               ` Hyman Rosen
2004-02-04 19:58                                                                                                                                             ` David Starner
2004-02-04 10:28                                                                                                                                     ` Stuart Palin
2004-02-04 15:07                                                                                                                                       ` Hyman Rosen
2004-02-04 15:19                                                                                                                                         ` Vinzent 'Gadget' Hoefler
2004-02-04 15:54                                                                                                                                           ` Hyman Rosen
2004-02-04 16:36                                                                                                                                             ` Vinzent 'Gadget' Hoefler
2004-02-04 17:13                                                                                                                                               ` Hyman Rosen
2004-02-05 12:11                                                                                                                                         ` Stuart Palin
2004-02-05 13:22                                                                                                                                           ` Hyman Rosen
2004-02-05 14:53                                                                                                                                             ` Robert I. Eachus
2004-02-05 15:43                                                                                                                                               ` Hyman Rosen
2004-02-06  7:41                                                                                                                                                 ` Robert I. Eachus
2004-02-24  1:27                                                                                                                                                   ` Hyman Rosen
2004-02-06 10:27                                                                                                                                             ` Stuart Palin
2004-02-24  1:55                                                                                                                                               ` Hyman Rosen
2004-02-24  2:16                                                                                                                                                 ` David Starner
2004-02-24 14:51                                                                                                                                                   ` Hyman Rosen
2004-02-24 23:55                                                                                                                                                     ` David Starner
2004-02-25  0:44                                                                                                                                                       ` Stephen Leake
2004-02-25  9:21                                                                                                                                                         ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2004-02-27  4:58                                                                                                                                                           ` left-to-right (was In-Out Parameters for functions) Stephen Leake
2004-02-27  9:43                                                                                                                                                             ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2004-02-27 14:07                                                                                                                                                               ` Stephen Leake
2004-02-27 15:18                                                                                                                                                                 ` Preben Randhol
2004-02-27 17:06                                                                                                                                                                 ` Hyman Rosen
2004-02-27 17:11                                                                                                                                                                 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2004-02-28 13:22                                                                                                                                                                   ` Stephen Leake
2004-03-01 11:12                                                                                                                                                                     ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2004-02-27 18:29                                                                                                                                                               ` Alexandre E. Kopilovitch
2004-03-01 11:12                                                                                                                                                                 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2004-02-28  0:12                                                                                                                                                             ` Randy Brukardt
2004-02-28 16:58                                                                                                                                                             ` Robert I. Eachus
2004-02-29 13:44                                                                                                                                                               ` Stephen Leake
2004-02-25  9:33                                                                                                                                                         ` In-Out Parameters for functions David Starner
2004-02-25 14:21                                                                                                                                                           ` Hyman Rosen
2004-02-25 14:34                                                                                                                                                             ` Vinzent 'Gadget' Hoefler
2004-02-25 15:02                                                                                                                                                               ` Hyman Rosen
2004-02-25 15:43                                                                                                                                                                 ` Vinzent 'Gadget' Hoefler
2004-02-25 15:53                                                                                                                                                                   ` Hyman Rosen
2004-02-25 16:05                                                                                                                                                                     ` Vinzent 'Gadget' Hoefler
2004-02-25 16:44                                                                                                                                                                       ` Hyman Rosen
2004-02-25 20:45                                                                                                                                                                         ` Randy Brukardt
2004-02-25 21:33                                                                                                                                                                           ` Hyman Rosen
2004-02-26  8:45                                                                                                                                                                             ` Preben Randhol
2004-02-26  8:46                                                                                                                                                                               ` Preben Randhol
2004-02-26 14:41                                                                                                                                                                               ` Hyman Rosen
2004-02-26  9:44                                                                                                                                                                             ` Vinzent 'Gadget' Hoefler
2004-02-26 13:24                                                                                                                                                                               ` Robert I. Eachus
2004-02-26 14:33                                                                                                                                                                                 ` Jean-Pierre Rosen
2004-02-28 17:11                                                                                                                                                                                   ` Robert I. Eachus
2004-02-26 15:21                                                                                                                                                                                 ` Hyman Rosen
2004-02-27  5:21                                                                                                                                                                                 ` Stephen Leake
2004-02-27  8:55                                                                                                                                                                                   ` David Starner
2004-02-26  9:44                                                                                                                                                                         ` Vinzent 'Gadget' Hoefler
2004-02-26 15:24                                                                                                                                                                           ` Hyman Rosen
2004-02-26 17:33                                                                                                                                                                             ` Vinzent 'Gadget' Hoefler
2004-02-25 16:34                                                                                                                                                                     ` Preben Randhol
2004-02-25 16:45                                                                                                                                                                       ` Hyman Rosen
2004-02-25 18:37                                                                                                                                                                         ` Frank J. Lhota
2004-02-26 13:29                                                                                                                                                                         ` Robert I. Eachus
2004-02-27  5:24                                                                                                                                                                           ` left-to-right (was In-Out Parameters for functions) Stephen Leake
2004-02-25 16:35                                                                                                                                                                     ` In-Out Parameters for functions Preben Randhol
2004-02-25 16:56                                                                                                                                                                       ` Hyman Rosen
2004-02-25 17:11                                                                                                                                                                         ` Preben Randhol
2004-02-25 17:33                                                                                                                                                                           ` Hyman Rosen
2004-02-25 15:44                                                                                                                                                                 ` Hyman Rosen
2004-02-25 16:10                                                                                                                                                                 ` Robert I. Eachus
2004-02-25 16:50                                                                                                                                                                   ` Hyman Rosen
2004-02-26 13:41                                                                                                                                                                     ` Robert I. Eachus
2004-02-26 15:44                                                                                                                                                                       ` Hyman Rosen
2004-02-28 17:34                                                                                                                                                                         ` Robert I. Eachus
2004-02-29  3:51                                                                                                                                                                           ` Hyman Rosen
2004-02-29 14:10                                                                                                                                                                             ` Robert I. Eachus
2004-02-29 15:37                                                                                                                                                                               ` Jon S. Anthony
2004-03-01 17:38                                                                                                                                                                               ` Hyman Rosen
2004-03-02  3:05                                                                                                                                                                                 ` Robert I. Eachus
2004-03-02  7:08                                                                                                                                                                                   ` Hyman Rosen
2004-03-02  8:48                                                                                                                                                                                     ` Jacob Sparre Andersen
2004-03-02 15:24                                                                                                                                                                                       ` Hyman Rosen
2004-03-02 15:42                                                                                                                                                                                         ` Jacob Sparre Andersen
2004-03-02 16:33                                                                                                                                                                                           ` Hyman Rosen
2004-03-02 22:06                                                                                                                                                                                             ` Robert I. Eachus
2004-03-02 22:43                                                                                                                                                                                             ` Randy Brukardt
2004-03-02 17:12                                                                                                                                                                                     ` Robert I. Eachus
2004-03-02 17:28                                                                                                                                                                                       ` Georg Bauhaus
2004-03-02 22:09                                                                                                                                                                                         ` Robert I. Eachus
2004-03-04  0:08                                                                                                                                                                                           ` Georg Bauhaus
2004-02-27  5:36                                                                                                                                                                       ` left-to-right (was In-Out Parameters for functions) Stephen Leake
2004-02-27 17:11                                                                                                                                                                         ` Hyman Rosen
2004-02-27  5:31                                                                                                                                                                   ` In-Out Parameters for functions Stephen Leake
2004-02-25 12:01                                                                                                                                                         ` Marin David Condic
2004-02-25 20:41                                                                                                                                                         ` Randy Brukardt
2004-02-25 22:05                                                                                                                                                         ` Jim Rogers
2004-02-25 22:19                                                                                                                                                           ` Hyman Rosen
2004-02-26  9:34                                                                                                                                                             ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2004-02-26  9:44                                                                                                                                                             ` Vinzent 'Gadget' Hoefler
2004-02-26 15:48                                                                                                                                                               ` Hyman Rosen
2004-02-26 17:49                                                                                                                                                                 ` Vinzent 'Gadget' Hoefler
2004-02-26 18:12                                                                                                                                                                   ` Hyman Rosen
2004-02-27  0:55                                                                                                                                                                     ` David Starner
2004-02-27 23:37                                                                                                                                                               ` Randy Brukardt
2004-02-26 12:42                                                                                                                                                             ` Wojtek Narczynski
2004-02-26 12:47                                                                                                                                                               ` Lutz Donnerhacke
2004-02-26 15:56                                                                                                                                                                 ` Hyman Rosen
2004-02-26 13:50                                                                                                                                                             ` Robert I. Eachus
2004-02-26 16:00                                                                                                                                                               ` Hyman Rosen
2004-02-28 17:48                                                                                                                                                                 ` Robert I. Eachus
2004-02-27  6:00                                                                                                                                                               ` Stephen Leake
2004-02-28 18:18                                                                                                                                                                 ` Robert I. Eachus
2004-02-24  8:22                                                                                                                                                 ` Jacob Sparre Andersen
2004-02-24  9:31                                                                                                                                                   ` Jean-Pierre Rosen
2004-02-04  3:01                                                                                                                             ` Alexandre E. Kopilovitch
2004-02-04  3:26                                                                                                                               ` Ludovic Brenta
2004-02-04  9:40                                                                                                                                 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2004-01-27  9:36                                                                                           ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2004-01-27 12:45                                                                                             ` Georg Bauhaus
2004-01-27  1:12                                                                                     ` Alexandre E. Kopilovitch
2004-01-27  9:23                                                                               ` Peter Amey
2004-01-27 17:24                                                                                 ` Robert A Duff
2004-01-28 10:30                                                                                   ` Wojtek Narczynski
2004-01-28 20:39                                                                                     ` Robert A Duff
2004-01-28 23:13                                                                                       ` Randy Brukardt
2004-01-29  9:20                                                                                         ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2004-01-29 23:30                                                                                           ` Randy Brukardt
2004-01-30  0:23                                                                                           ` In-Out Parameters for functions + object notation Alexandre E. Kopilovitch
2004-01-30 14:03                                                                                             ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2004-01-30 23:39                                                                                           ` In-Out Parameters for functions Alexandre E. Kopilovitch
2004-02-02  9:38                                                                                             ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2004-01-29 12:22                                                                                         ` Wojtek Narczynski
2004-01-29 20:25                                                                                           ` Alexandre E. Kopilovitch
2004-01-29 11:08                                                                                     ` Peter Amey
     [not found]                                                                             ` <dSgYj40LxF@VB1162.spb.edu>
2004-01-27  7:34                                                                               ` Stephen Leake
2004-01-23  6:57                                                                   ` In-Out Parameters for functions (was: Re: Certified C compilers for safety-critical embedded systems Dave Thompson
2004-01-09 16:36                                                               ` Robert I. Eachus
2004-01-09 22:55                                                                 ` Robert A Duff
2004-01-09  3:49                                                             ` Kenneth Almquist
2004-01-19 21:57                                                       ` Robert A Duff
2004-01-06 12:45                                                 ` Martin Krischik
2004-01-06 17:23                                                   ` Hyman Rosen
2004-01-06 18:33                                                     ` Kelly Hall
2004-01-06 20:45                                                       ` Hyman Rosen
2004-01-07  1:48                                                         ` Frank J. Lhota
2004-01-07 14:52                                                           ` Hyman Rosen
2004-01-08 10:18                                                         ` Scott Moore
2004-01-08 14:52                                                           ` Hyman Rosen
2004-01-08 18:24                                                           ` Dave Hansen
2004-01-09  7:50                                                             ` Vinzent 'Gadget' Hoefler
2004-01-09 14:52                                                               ` Hyman Rosen
2004-01-10  0:46                                                                 ` Georg Bauhaus
2004-01-11  2:49                                                                   ` Hyman Rosen
2004-01-10 12:25                                                                 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2004-01-10 13:03                                                                   ` Frank J. Lhota
2004-01-10 15:14                                                                     ` Martin Krischik
2004-01-10 17:49                                                                       ` Frank J. Lhota
2004-01-11  2:29                                                                   ` Hyman Rosen
2004-01-11 12:50                                                                     ` Frank J. Lhota
2004-01-11 15:15                                                                     ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2004-01-11  2:38                                                                   ` Hyman Rosen
2004-01-06 18:40                                                     ` Vinzent 'Gadget' Hoefler
2004-01-06 20:34                                                       ` Hyman Rosen
2004-01-06 22:18                                                         ` tmoran
2004-01-06 20:43                                                     ` Georg Bauhaus
2004-01-07 21:23                                                     ` Martin Dowie
2004-01-06 13:33                                                 ` Georg Bauhaus
2004-01-08 10:13                                                 ` Scott Moore
2004-01-08 14:53                                                   ` Hyman Rosen
2004-01-08 15:51                                                     ` Martin Krischik
2004-01-09 16:57                                                     ` Robert I. Eachus
2004-01-09 17:54                                                       ` Hyman Rosen
2004-01-09 20:16                                                         ` CBFalconer
2004-01-09 20:48                                                           ` Hyman Rosen
2004-01-09 22:49                                                         ` Robert A Duff
2004-01-09 23:58                                               ` Larry Kilgallen
2004-01-10  6:16                                                 ` Robert I. Eachus
2004-01-10 13:42                                                   ` Marin David Condic
2004-01-09  5:13                                                     ` Mark Lorenzen
2004-01-10 18:34                                                       ` Robert I. Eachus
2004-01-11  2:43                                                   ` Hyman Rosen
2004-01-11  3:12                                                     ` tmoran
2004-01-11  7:09                                                       ` Robert I. Eachus
2004-01-11 10:53                                                       ` Leif Roar Moldskred
2004-01-09 10:11                                                         ` Mark Lorenzen
2004-01-11 14:40                                                       ` Marin David Condic
2004-01-11 15:16                                                         ` Larry Kilgallen
2004-01-12  0:59                                                           ` Georg Bauhaus
2004-01-12 12:51                                                       ` Peter Amey
2004-01-11  3:26                                                     ` Hans-Bernhard Broeker
2004-01-11  5:43                                                     ` John R. Strohm
2004-01-11  6:53                                                     ` Robert I. Eachus
2004-01-11 13:42                                                     ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2004-01-11 17:18                                                     ` Chad R. Meiners
2004-01-11 18:00                                                       ` Robert I. Eachus
2004-01-11 18:38                                                         ` Chad R. Meiners
2004-01-12  1:02                                                           ` Georg Bauhaus
2004-01-12  2:13                                                             ` Chad R. Meiners
2004-01-12  4:36                                                               ` Robert I. Eachus
2004-01-12 15:48                                                                 ` Mel Wilson
2004-01-12 16:29                                                                 ` Martin Krischik
2004-01-14  6:50                                                                   ` Robert I. Eachus
2004-01-13 13:28                                                                 ` Aatu Koskensilta
2004-01-13 22:18                                                                   ` Alexandre E. Kopilovitch
2004-01-14  5:00                                                                     ` David Starner
2004-01-14  7:07                                                                       ` Robert I. Eachus
2004-01-14  8:36                                                                         ` David Starner
2004-01-14  9:20                                                                           ` Aatu Koskensilta
2004-01-14  8:01                                                                     ` Aatu Koskensilta
2004-01-14 12:48                                                                       ` Georg Bauhaus
2004-01-14 13:47                                                                         ` Aatu Koskensilta
2004-01-15  1:12                                                                           ` Georg Bauhaus
2004-01-17  3:58                                                                             ` Robert I. Eachus
2004-01-17 20:50                                                                               ` Robert A Duff
2004-01-14 16:44                                                                         ` Robert I. Eachus
2004-01-14 22:08                                                                           ` David Starner
2004-01-17  4:13                                                                             ` Robert I. Eachus
2004-01-14 22:52                                                                           ` Aatu Koskensilta
2004-01-16  5:45                                                                             ` Pat Rogers
2004-01-17  5:19                                                                             ` Robert I. Eachus
2004-01-17 15:56                                                                               ` Aatu Koskensilta
2004-01-17 16:09                                                                                 ` Robert I. Eachus
2004-01-17 21:07                                                                               ` Robert A Duff
2004-01-18  0:20                                                                                 ` Robert I. Eachus
2004-01-19 22:02                                                                                   ` Robert A Duff
2004-01-14 15:12                                                                       ` Alexandre E. Kopilovitch
2004-01-14 16:32                                                                         ` Aatu Koskensilta
2004-01-15  1:28                                                                           ` Alexandre E. Kopilovitch
2004-01-16  8:07                                                                             ` Aatu Koskensilta
2004-01-17  2:07                                                                               ` Alexandre E. Kopilovitch
2004-01-17  5:29                                                                               ` Robert I. Eachus
2004-01-21  8:07                                                                                 ` Aatu Koskensilta
2004-01-21 23:23                                                                                   ` Robert I. Eachus
2004-01-15  5:22                                                                           ` Jeff C,
     [not found]                                                           ` <btsrnj$gld$2@a1-hrz.uni-duis <2GsAAls/KX7Z089yn@the-wire.com>
2004-01-16 20:36                                                             ` Albert van der Horst
2004-01-11 17:44                                                     ` Everett M. Greene
     [not found]                                                     ` <btqo11$8uo@libra <20040111.79C2A20.8BC3@mojaveg.iwvisp.com>
2004-01-11 19:14                                                       ` CBFalconer
     [not found]                                               ` <3ff9df16.3024 <1073487133.232393@master.nyc.kbcfp.com>
2004-01-16 20:13                                                 ` Albert van der Horst
2004-01-18  3:11                                                   ` Hyman Rosen
2003-12-30 21:35                                         ` Ed Falis
2003-12-31  0:11                                           ` Dave Hansen
2003-12-31 11:02                                             ` Martin Krischik
2003-12-31 13:38                                             ` Ed Falis
2003-12-31 15:22                                               ` Robert I. Eachus
2003-12-31 22:46                                                 ` Robert A Duff
2003-12-31 23:13                                                   ` Hyman Rosen
2004-01-02  2:24                                                     ` Robert A Duff
2004-01-02  4:06                                                       ` Hyman Rosen
2004-01-02 20:47                                                         ` Randy Brukardt
2004-01-03  1:47                                                         ` Robert A Duff
2004-01-02 11:49                                                       ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2003-12-31 16:52                                               ` Alex Colvin
2003-12-29 17:56                               ` Martin Krischik
2003-12-30  1:17                                 ` Morris Dovey
2003-12-30 10:01                                   ` Martin Krischik
2003-12-29 18:40                               ` Frank J. Lhota
2003-12-30 10:04                                 ` Martin Krischik
2003-12-27  5:18                         ` Richard Henry
2003-12-30 21:41                       ` Larry Kilgallen
2003-12-30 22:17                         ` Hyman Rosen
2003-12-30 21:45                       ` Larry Kilgallen
2003-12-25  2:33                     ` Robert I. Eachus
2003-12-26 11:15                       ` Chris Hills
2003-12-26 15:49                         ` Chad R. Meiners
2003-12-30 18:01                           ` Chris Hills
2003-12-27  1:58                         ` Stephen Leake
2003-12-27 20:17                           ` Robert I. Eachus
2003-12-28  3:01                             ` Stephen Leake
2003-12-24 22:59                   ` Mike Silva
2003-12-26 14:58                     ` Alan Balmer
2003-12-27 21:33                       ` Robert I. Eachus [this message]
2003-12-28  2:34                         ` Alexandre E. Kopilovitch
2003-12-28  6:08                           ` Robert I. Eachus
2003-12-29  4:14                             ` Alexandre E. Kopilovitch
2003-12-29 16:41                               ` Robert I. Eachus
2003-12-24 23:11                   ` Mike Silva
2003-12-26 11:21                     ` Chris Hills
2003-12-27  0:42                       ` David Emery
2003-12-27 16:15                         ` Chris Hills
2003-12-27 19:10                           ` Larry Kilgallen
2003-12-27 21:17                             ` Chris Hills
2003-12-28  6:14                               ` Mike Silva
2003-12-28 10:15                   ` Peter Amey
2003-12-28 15:46                     ` Chris Hills
2003-12-28 22:59                       ` Chad R. Meiners
2003-12-29  1:29                         ` Robert I. Eachus
2003-12-29  4:34                           ` Chad R. Meiners
2003-12-29 16:56                             ` Robert I. Eachus
2003-12-29 18:56                               ` Chad R. Meiners
2003-12-29 11:39                           ` Peter Amey
2003-12-28 15:51                     ` CBFalconer
2003-12-28 16:00                       ` Ed Falis
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