The greatest feature of the language is ....

The greatest feature of the language is ....

[Wes Groleau]

This is not a troll--please, NO LANGUAGE WARS.

Suppose someone wanted to invent a new language.  (I have
no intention of inventing a new language.  This is just my
way of making a comparison.)

What is the ONE capability of Ada you would most want to ensure is
in the new language?

and/or

What is the ONE capability of Eiffel you would most want to ensure is
in the new language?

and/or

BRIEFLY, why?

Please use direct e-mail, however, messages that are too long will be
bounced by the spam-bot (sorry).  Also, messages will be auto-sorted,
so please do not change the subject line when replying.  ("Re:" or "Fwd"
or add-ons like that are OK but keep the main phrase.)

I have no intention of inventing a new language.  This is just my
way of making a comparison.

I'll post a summary of responses--unless there are so many I can't
handle them.

-- 
Wes Groleau
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~wgroleau

Re: The greatest feature of the language is ....

[Preben Randhol]

On Thu, 05 Oct 2000 12:28:08 -0500, Wes Groleau wrote:
>What is the ONE capability of Ada you would most want to ensure is
>in the new language?

Why just ONE ?

>I have no intention of inventing a new language.  This is just my
>way of making a comparison.

How can you make a comparison based on this?

-- 
Preben Randhol - Ph.D Student -  http://www.pvv.org/~randhol/     ._.
Debian 2.2 |"Don't think about domination, think about freedom,  / _,\
Potato     | it doesn't dominate." - Richard M. Stallman        | (_./
GNU/Linux  | To learn more visit => http://www.debian.org/       \,

Re: The greatest feature of the language is ....

[Wes Groleau]

> >What is the ONE capability of Ada you would most want to ensure is
> >in the new language?
> 
> Why just ONE ?

Because I can't afford to process millions of words from hundreds
of enthusiasts of either language.  So I'm asking for what whoever
would MOST want.

> >I have no intention of inventing a new language.  This is just my
> >way of making a comparison.
> 
> How can you make a comparison based on this?

If twenty people say "precondition assertions"
and five people say "separation of spec and body"
and NONE say subtypes with range constraints, that
tells you something, right?

Plus, I am not an Eiffel wiz, so I might learn something
about Eiffel I didn't know before.

-- 
Wes Groleau
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~wgroleau

Re: The greatest feature of the language is ....

[tmoran]

>What is the ONE capability of Ada you would most want to ensure is
>in the new language?
  If half the people say "separation of spec and body" and the other
half say "protected type", does that mean "generics" is
completely irrelevant?

Re: The greatest feature of the language is ....

[Preben Randhol]

On Thu, 05 Oct 2000 14:48:05 -0500, Wes Groleau wrote:
>If twenty people say "precondition assertions"
>and five people say "separation of spec and body"
>and NONE say subtypes with range constraints, that
>tells you something, right?

No it does not.

Some features are also dependant on other features.

-- 
Preben Randhol - Ph.D Student -  http://www.pvv.org/~randhol/     ._.
Debian 2.2 |"Don't think about domination, think about freedom,  / _,\
Potato     | it doesn't dominate." - Richard M. Stallman        | (_./
GNU/Linux  | To learn more visit => http://www.debian.org/       \,

Re: The greatest feature of the language is ....

[James Rogers]

Preben Randhol wrote:
> 
> On Thu, 05 Oct 2000 14:48:05 -0500, Wes Groleau wrote:
> >If twenty people say "precondition assertions"
> >and five people say "separation of spec and body"
> >and NONE say subtypes with range constraints, that
> >tells you something, right?
> 
> No it does not.
> 
> Some features are also dependant on other features.

An even more important question is how the various features work
together.
Nobody can build a program using just one feature of any language.

One of the supposedly important features of Pascal was strong typing.
While strong typing offers some significant advantages, the Pascal
implementation of strong typing often gets in its own way.

Other languages offer weak typing as an strength. One result is that
developers must perform more extensive debugging and testing to try to
catch all the potential errors automatically caught by compilers for
strongly
typed languages.

Evaluating any language by a vote of favorite features makes about as
much
sense as buying an automobile based upon the size of the spark plug 
recommended for the engine.

Jim Rogers
Colorado Springs, Colorado

Re: The greatest feature of the language is ....

[Marin David Condic]

Wes Groleau wrote:

> This is not a troll--please, NO LANGUAGE WARS.
>
> Suppose someone wanted to invent a new language.  (I have
> no intention of inventing a new language.  This is just my
> way of making a comparison.)
>
> What is the ONE capability of Ada you would most want to ensure is
> in the new language?
>

Its hard to pick just one. If it had to be just one, I'd say Tasking. The
reason is that almost any new language design is likely to include all the
other popular features of other languages like some form of OO programming,
maybe some level of type safety (nobody *really* wants to reinvent C do
they?) maybe some kind of generic template, etc. But if you really want to
be able to take advantage of the possibilities of multiprocessors,
multiprogramming, etc. then having tasks is far superior to OS calls to
spawn threads or forks or other stuff that gets done as a kind of
after-the-fact patch. Tasking is probably Ada's most unique feature.

>
> and/or
>
> What is the ONE capability of Eiffel you would most want to ensure is
> in the new language?
>

Don't know much about Eiffel. I hear tell that it will keep your rockets
from crashing when management makes bad decisions though. Maybe that feature
should be included. :-) :-) :-) (Talk about starting flame wars!)

MDC
--
======================================================================
Marin David Condic - Quadrus Corporation - http://www.quadruscorp.com/
Send Replies To: m c o n d i c @ q u a d r u s c o r p . c o m
Visit my web site at:  http://www.mcondic.com/

    "Giving money and power to Government is like giving whiskey
    and car keys to teenage boys."

        --   P. J. O'Rourke
======================================================================

Re: The greatest feature of the language is ....

[Lao Xiao Hai]

Wes Groleau wrote:

> Suppose someone wanted to invent a new language.

People are inventing new languages all the time.   Most recently,
Microsoft has introduced a new language call C#, pronounced
C Sharp.    Because Microsoft has its money behind the success
of this language, it will probably become important.  This is Bill
Gates' opening salvo against Java.   It will probably be a success.
Then again, IBM, with all its market clout in the "Sixties" could
not promote the dominance of PL/I.   Who knows?

C# still has C-family syntax, but has eliminated a lot of the C-family
semantics.  The famous,  if (i = 0) ..., that has plagued every C
language dialect is now illegal in C#.    The designers of C# have
placed other restrictions on the compiler.   There are even explicit
out mode parameters in function calls.  Gone is multiple inheritance.
When I discussed the disappearance of MI with a C#-aware person
from Microsoft, he noted that MI is probably still a research topic.

C# has added more accessibility levels, cleaned up many of the C++
problems with pointers, has a more Ada-like model for importing
compiled library units, and lots of other features that will look familiar
to the Ada programmer.

The enemy may have been C++, but that was  an easy target
because of is messy rules, absurd syntax, and crazy semantics.  The
challenge for Ada, in the future, may be C#, a language characterized
by more rigor and greater reliability that we have seen in other members
of the C family of languages.

C# will be included in the Visual Studio release 7.   It is going to be an
important language.

Richard Riehle

Re: The greatest feature of the language is ....

[Laurent Guerby]

Richard Riehle wrote:
> People are inventing new languages all the time.   Most recently,
> Microsoft has introduced a new language call C#, pronounced
> C Sharp.    Because Microsoft has its money behind the success
> of this language, it will probably become important.  [...]

Well, when Ada was created everyone was saying that it was going to be
an important language _because_ it had the biggest possible backer at
the time, the US DoD. The report that recommended the end of the Ada
mandate brightly made the remark that after all, the biggest software
consumer was no longer the DoD, and that played a lot in the perceived
success of the language. 

The software business is highly volatile, consumers relative
importance can vary quickly, and so can producer relative importance.

> [...] C# will be included in the Visual Studio release 7.  It is
> going to be an important language.

Until Visual Studio release 8 ;-). Name a Microsoft technology that
Microsoft did not obsolete by a new revolutionary important product or
piles of minor incompatible change within two years?

-- 
Laurent Guerby <guerby@acm.org>

Re: The greatest feature of the language is ....

[Ted Dennison]

Laurent Guerby wrote:

> Until Visual Studio release 8 ;-). Name a Microsoft technology that
> Microsoft did not obsolete by a new revolutionary important product or
> piles of minor incompatible change within two years?

Well, there's Microsfot Bob. That was obsolete 5 years before they made
it. :-)

--
T.E.D.

Home - mailto:dennison@telepath.com  Work - mailto:dennison@ssd.fsi.com
WWW  - http://www.telepath.com/dennison/Ted/TED.html  ICQ  - 10545591

Re: The greatest feature of the language is ....

[Jeff Carter]

Ada's greatest feature is its excellent support for modularity,
encapsulation, and information hiding. Mostly that's provided through
packages (with separation of spec and body) and private types, but
protected and task types also provide encapsulation and information
hiding. I consider that one feature, though multiple language
constructs.

That said, Ada wouldn't be as attractive a language without generics,
exceptions, concurrency, strong typing, user-defined numeric types,
application-oriented parameter modes, sensible control structures, ...

-- 
Jeff Carter
"English bed-wetting types."
Monty Python & the Holy Grail

Re: The greatest feature of the language is ....

[jpwoodruff]

In article <39DE967D.9861342A@acm.org>,
  Jeff Carter <jrcarter@acm.org> wrote:
> Ada's greatest feature is its excellent support for modularity,
> encapsulation, and information hiding


My vote is for the *orthogonality* of Ada's features.  This is a lot
like Jeff's vote for "support for modularity", but I mean "modularity"
of the numerous *concepts* in the language.

I can describe the proper use of generics without needing to concern
myself with inheritance; I can discuss inheritance without concern
about tasking; I can consider tasking without worrying the details of
generics.

And because Ada's language features are *orthogonal* I can combine a
solution that needs type extension into a structure that has multiple
threads that execute methods defined in different instances of some
generic package!

These orthogonal features of the language all work in simple or complex
structures.  And that's my favorite "feature" of Ada.


Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

Re: The greatest feature of the language is ....

[Werner Pachler]

Wes,

although i think that you should better ask for "the top 5 advantages"
instead of only one here
my "five cents":

After a couple of years developing with Ada (and C and FORTRAN and...) i
think the most
valuable issue is the "Ada way of thinking":
"In god we trust - anything else we check!"

Regards,
Werner

"Wes Groleau" <wwgrol@ftw.rsc.raytheon.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:39DCBA28.E504523B@ftw.rsc.raytheon.com...
> This is not a troll--please, NO LANGUAGE WARS.
>
> Suppose someone wanted to invent a new language.  (I have
> no intention of inventing a new language.  This is just my
> way of making a comparison.)
>
> What is the ONE capability of Ada you would most want to ensure is
> in the new language?
>
> and/or
>
> What is the ONE capability of Eiffel you would most want to ensure is
> in the new language?
>
> and/or
>
> BRIEFLY, why?
>
> Please use direct e-mail, however, messages that are too long will be
> bounced by the spam-bot (sorry).  Also, messages will be auto-sorted,
> so please do not change the subject line when replying.  ("Re:" or "Fwd"
> or add-ons like that are OK but keep the main phrase.)
>
> I have no intention of inventing a new language.  This is just my
> way of making a comparison.
>
> I'll post a summary of responses--unless there are so many I can't
> handle them.
>
> --
> Wes Groleau
> http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~wgroleau

Re: The greatest feature of the language is ....

[Jean-Pierre Rosen]

> After a couple of years developing with Ada (and C and FORTRAN and...) i
> think the most
> valuable issue is the "Ada way of thinking":
> "In god we trust - anything else we check!"
>
A very good one !
Similarly, when I teach, every now and then someone asks: "does the compiler check that....".
I immediately stop the guy and answer:
"You are very welcome to ask questions at any point. But to save some time, for every question that starts with "does the compiler
check that....", the answer is YES".

--
---------------------------------------------------------
           J-P. Rosen (Rosen.Adalog@wanadoo.fr)
Visit Adalog's web site at http://pro.wanadoo.fr/adalog

Re: The greatest feature of the language is ....

[Robert A Duff]

"Jean-Pierre Rosen" <rosen.adalog@wanadoo.fr> writes:

> I immediately stop the guy and answer:
> "You are very welcome to ask questions at any point. But to save some time, for every question that starts with "does the compiler
> check that....", the answer is YES".

Does the compiler check that my program does what I want it to do?
;-)

- Bob

Re: The greatest feature of the language is ....

[David Emery]

Interesting question, and I can't decide betwee
   
   1.  strong typing
   2.  separation of interface from implementation

The former adds significantly to the reliability of programs, and the
latter is a major contributor to your ability to compose software.

            dave

RE: The greatest feature of the language is ....

[Soeren.Henssel-Rasmussen]

|Richard Riehle:
|
| C# has added more accessibility levels, cleaned up many of the C++
| problems with pointers, has a more Ada-like model for importing
| compiled library units, and lots of other features that will look familiar
| to the Ada programmer.
|
| The enemy may have been C++, but that was  an easy target
| because of is messy rules, absurd syntax, and crazy semantics.  The
| challenge for Ada, in the future, may be C#, a language characterized
| by more rigor and greater reliability that we have seen in other members
| of the C family of languages.
|
| C# will be included in the Visual Studio release 7.   It is going to be an
| important language.


As Anders Hejlsberg is one of the principal C# designers - and one of the
Godfathers of Pascal and designer of Borland Delphi - is is easy to
understand the link to the Algol/Pascal/Ada language family. C# will be an
important language on the PC platform w/ MS technology "underneath" ... but
if it will be able to have the same general impact of Java, idunno.

Ada is and will for many years be an important language and also be
influencial on many "new" languages design to come. Just see PL/SQL used as
a scripting language for stored procedures by Oracle relational databases.

/soren
Soren Henssel-Rasmussen

Re: The greatest feature of the language is ....

[Pat Rogers]

I've received a number of adverts from Bertrand Meyer's company
offering courses in .NET and associated technology.  Apparently he's
gotten Eiffel into the mainstream of Microsoft's plans (not as their
primary language of course, but as one of many available).  Anybody
know more about how this works, and how Ada could fit in?

<Soeren.Henssel-Rasmussen@nokia.com> wrote in message
news:1783411C46BCD21182E20008C7EAA09201A1521E@coeis01nok...
> |Richard Riehle:
> |
> | C# has added more accessibility levels, cleaned up many of the C++
> | problems with pointers, has a more Ada-like model for importing
> | compiled library units, and lots of other features that will look
familiar
> | to the Ada programmer.
> |
> | The enemy may have been C++, but that was  an easy target
> | because of is messy rules, absurd syntax, and crazy semantics.
The
> | challenge for Ada, in the future, may be C#, a language
characterized
> | by more rigor and greater reliability that we have seen in other
members
> | of the C family of languages.
> |
> | C# will be included in the Visual Studio release 7.   It is going
to be an
> | important language.
>
>
> As Anders Hejlsberg is one of the principal C# designers - and one
of the
> Godfathers of Pascal and designer of Borland Delphi - is is easy to
> understand the link to the Algol/Pascal/Ada language family. C# will
be an
> important language on the PC platform w/ MS technology "underneath"
... but
> if it will be able to have the same general impact of Java, idunno.
>
> Ada is and will for many years be an important language and also be
> influencial on many "new" languages design to come. Just see PL/SQL
used as
> a scripting language for stored procedures by Oracle relational
databases.
>
> /soren
> Soren Henssel-Rasmussen
>
>
>

Re: The greatest feature of the language is ....

[Lao Xiao Hai]

Pat Rogers wrote:

> I've received a number of adverts from Bertrand Meyer's company
> offering courses in .NET and associated technology.  Apparently he's
> gotten Eiffel into the mainstream of Microsoft's plans (not as their
> primary language of course, but as one of many available).  Anybody
> know more about how this works, and how Ada could fit in?

Excellent question, Pat.   I discussed this with an ACT attendee at the
last TOOLS USA conference.  As you know, Bertrand is a friend of
mine and I am active in TOOLS conferences.

Bertrand met Bill Gates at one of the .NET meetings.   Gates knew almost
nothing about Eiffel.   After Bertrand described it to him, he was
impressed
and it did not take long for Eiffel to become part of the .NET initiative.

At the same time, Microsoft haters in the Eiffel camp decried this
turn-of-events
and some are upset about it.   They see it as Bertrand "selling out" to
Microsoft.
You cannot please everyone.

This is a real opportunity for ACT or one of the other Ada compiler
publishers.
The .NET initiative is not the same as Microsoft Bob or some other failed
efforts
of earlier years.   I think it is important to have Ada a part of this.
The desktop
market is not going away and we need a higher level of visibility there.

Richard

Re: The greatest feature of the language is ....

[Pat Rogers]

"Lao Xiao Hai" <laoxhai@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:39E3BB29.93C4BFB9@ix.netcom.com...
>
> Pat Rogers wrote:
>
> > I've received a number of adverts from Bertrand Meyer's company
> > offering courses in .NET and associated technology.  Apparently
he's
> > gotten Eiffel into the mainstream of Microsoft's plans (not as
their
> > primary language of course, but as one of many available).
Anybody
> > know more about how this works, and how Ada could fit in?

<snip>

> This is a real opportunity for ACT or one of the other Ada compiler
publishers.
> The .NET initiative is not the same as Microsoft Bob or some other
failed
> efforts of earlier years.   I think it is important to have Ada a
part of this.
> The desktop market is not going away and we need a higher level of
visibility there.

Can you describe what .NET actually is?  I had thought it to be what
comes before "vaporware" -- ie, "projectorware".  How do languages fit
in?

Thanks!

Pat

Re: The greatest feature of the language is ....

[Charles Hixson]

Lao Xiao Hai wrote:

> Pat Rogers wrote:
>
> > I've received a number of adverts from Bertrand Meyer's company
> > offering courses in .NET and associated technology.  Apparently he's
> > gotten Eiffel into the mainstream of Microsoft's plans (not as their
> > primary language of course, but as one of many available).  Anybody
> > know more about how this works, and how Ada could fit in?
>
> Excellent question, Pat.   I discussed this with an ACT attendee at the
> last TOOLS USA conference.  As you know, Bertrand is a friend of
> mine and I am active in TOOLS conferences.
>
> Bertrand met Bill Gates at one of the .NET meetings.   Gates knew almost
> nothing about Eiffel.   After Bertrand described it to him, he was
> impressed
> and it did not take long for Eiffel to become part of the .NET initiative.
> ...
> Richard

Yes.  Eiffel has "joined" the .NET.  but it is sufficiently different from
"standard Eiffel" that Bertrand has named it Eiffel*.  E.g., multiple
inheritance is used in practically all of the core classes of the Eiffel
library, but it has been removed from Eiffel*.  I'm sure this will have
interesting results.  I'm not sure that what results will be Eiffel.

If you want to take part in the .NET program, I think you had best be prepared
to renounce your official standards.  At least that was the Eiffel
experience.  It has been announced that these features now being removed will
be added back in again later, when the current implementation problems are
solved.  Well, ok.  I suppose that a subset implementation is quite
legitimate.  But be prepared for both extensions and subtractions being
required.  Remember, if you want to play his game, then "He who has the gold
makes the rules".

-- (c) Charles Hixson
--  Addition of advertisements or hyperlinks to products specifically
prohibited

Re: The greatest feature of the language is ....

[Pat Rogers]

"Charles Hixson" <charleshixsn@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:39F478E2.7CB4B534@earthlink.net...
> Lao Xiao Hai wrote:
>
> > Pat Rogers wrote:
> >
> > > I've received a number of adverts from Bertrand Meyer's company
> > > offering courses in .NET and associated technology.  Apparently
he's
> > > gotten Eiffel into the mainstream of Microsoft's plans (not as
their
> > > primary language of course, but as one of many available).
Anybody
> > > know more about how this works, and how Ada could fit in?
> >
> > Excellent question, Pat.   I discussed this with an ACT attendee
at the
> > last TOOLS USA conference.  As you know, Bertrand is a friend of
> > mine and I am active in TOOLS conferences.
> >
> > Bertrand met Bill Gates at one of the .NET meetings.   Gates knew
almost
> > nothing about Eiffel.   After Bertrand described it to him, he was
> > impressed
> > and it did not take long for Eiffel to become part of the .NET
initiative.
> > ...
> > Richard
>
> Yes.  Eiffel has "joined" the .NET.  but it is sufficiently
different from
> "standard Eiffel" that Bertrand has named it Eiffel*.  E.g.,
multiple
> inheritance is used in practically all of the core classes of the
Eiffel
> library, but it has been removed from Eiffel*.  I'm sure this will
have
> interesting results.  I'm not sure that what results will be Eiffel.
>
> If you want to take part in the .NET program, I think you had best
be prepared
> to renounce your official standards.  At least that was the Eiffel
> experience.  It has been announced that these features now being
removed will
> be added back in again later, when the current implementation
problems are
> solved.  Well, ok.  I suppose that a subset implementation is quite
> legitimate.  But be prepared for both extensions and subtractions
being
> required.  Remember, if you want to play his game, then "He who has
the gold
> makes the rules".


At this point I'm just trying to find out what the game really is!  So
much smoke and mirrors?  What?