From: Martin <martin.dowie@btopenworld.com>
Subject: Re: Alternatives to C: ObjectPascal, Eiffel, Ada or Modula-3?
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2009 00:53:52 -0700 (PDT)
Date: 2009-07-22T00:53:52-07:00 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <0bd49fc3-8fae-44ca-93fb-938fabffb892@q11g2000yqi.googlegroups.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: frqdnVC40cGGSvjXnZ2dnUVZ8gqdnZ2d@brightview.co.uk
On Jul 21, 5:06 pm, Jon Harrop <j...@ffconsultancy.com> wrote:
> Martin wrote:
> > On Jul 21, 3:09 pm, Jon Harrop <j...@ffconsultancy.com> wrote:
> > But I'm afraid it does...20 years ago it didn't.
>
> Not according to John Barnes' "Rationale for Ada 2005":
>
> http://www.adaic.org/standards/05rat/html/Rat-3-4.html
The first part of this shows how they weren't...read on and it shows
that have been added (anonymous access types) to provide downward
closures (what I took from "first-class lexical closures").
> > Yes, that's right...and they are replacing them with GNU/Linux
> > bozes...you didn't read far enough.
>
> If they are still running on embedded 68k CPUs then it cannot be very
> computationally intensive work by today's standards. They seem to be just
> gathering a not-huge amount of data which is neither interesting nor
> relevant in this context.
No - they are Intel/Linux boxes (GNAT GPL 2007 is Intel only), not PPC
and they gather _and_ process the data (the FORTRAN bit they are
replacing).
I didn't realise there was a size threshold before something became
"interesting" :-)
I have no idea how much data they are collecting / processing but it's
certainly relevant - your claim was you had "never heard of anyone
using any of those languages for it" ('it' being scientific computing)
and I've provided an example, so now you have.
> > There's plenty that's modern about Ada - it did multi-core natively
> > and portably long before the current flavour-of-the-month boys came to
> > the party.
>
> Fortran did parallelism before Ada and the current "flavour-of-the-month
> boys" like Cilk and .NET 4 provide modern solutions for parallelism built
> upon wait-free work-stealing concurrent deques that Ada not only does not
> have but cannot even express.
Yes, their were other pre-Ada concurrent languages - just shows how
modern Ada is! ;-)
I don't use .NET but there's certainly Ada support for it (A# as it
was called, now available from https://libre.adacore.com/libre/). If
it's built into .NET then I don't see any reason why support couldn't
be added. Does .NET offer different task scheduling policies? Or do
you just 'get what's implemented'? There are 4 tasking policies
already defined in Ada and implementations are free to add others:
pragma Tasking_Dispatch_Policy
(Wait_Free_Work_Stealing_Concurrent_Deques);
...doesn't exactly trip off the tongue but that's it expressed...
Or if you're refering to the work by Chase & Lev @ Sun, then they
implemented it in C++. As far as I know there is nothing you can
implement in C++ that you can't in Ada (or many other languages) and
visa-versa, so it could be added as an external library (akin to
replacing the built in language 'task' keyword with library calls as
you do when using an ARINC-653 supporting OS).
> > The one thing that is missing is lambda support but that doesn't
> > bother me to much given the sort of domains I work in. I think I heard
> > it was being considered for the next language revision.
>
> What do you mean by "lambda support" if not first-class lexical closures?
Ada only supports downward closures not full blown lambda expressions
or functions - that really is the domain of the functional languages
(or TMP).
I can't write unnamed functions, e.g. classic C++ Boost example:
for_each(a.begin(), a.end(), std::cout << _1 << ' ');
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
unnamed function
I'd have to wrap that in a function in Ada to a pass that (named)
function. I can't return an unnamed function in Ada either. It's just
downwards. But that's a whole lot more that the original Ada83 spec,
which expected you to use generic (template) functions instead. Do-
able but a lot more effort.
I believe there is work on adding some sort of unnamed function
support to a future language revision.
> >> "the right choice for courses in elementary programming"
>
> > Nothing wrong with that - it's also very well suited to intermediate
> > and advanced programming.
>
> In the embedded space, perhaps.
Not just embedded - it's a general purpose language but it certainly
isn't functional. Most of my Ada work isn't embedded at all these
days...usually console apps.
Cheers
-- Martin
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2009-07-22 7:53 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 285+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2009-07-18 14:19 Alternatives to C: ObjectPascal, Eiffel, Ada or Modula-3? Andrea Taverna
2009-07-18 14:42 ` Richard Harter
2009-07-18 14:53 ` Francois PIETTE
2009-07-18 15:23 ` Ludovic Brenta
2009-07-18 18:27 ` Andrea Taverna
2009-07-18 18:46 ` Pascal Obry
2009-08-04 20:09 ` Hendrik Boom
2009-08-04 21:35 ` Jon Harrop
2009-07-18 18:57 ` Andrea Taverna
2009-07-18 15:18 ` Pascal J. Bourguignon
2009-07-19 13:50 ` Andrea Taverna
2009-07-19 14:06 ` Pascal J. Bourguignon
2009-07-20 10:13 ` Nicholas Paul Collin Gloucester
2009-08-04 20:12 ` Hendrik Boom
2009-07-21 12:03 ` Jon Harrop
2009-07-21 13:25 ` Mark T.B. Carroll
2009-07-18 15:50 ` Ludovic Brenta
2009-07-18 16:31 ` Hibou57 (Yannick Duchêne)
2009-07-18 19:48 ` Georg Bauhaus
2009-07-20 10:34 ` Nicholas Paul Collin Gloucester
2009-07-23 22:58 ` A few Ada questions Andrea Taverna
2009-07-24 0:28 ` Ludovic Brenta
2009-07-24 9:07 ` AdaMagica
2009-07-28 9:48 ` Making a nonlimited type controlled by means of a controlled component Ludovic Brenta
2009-08-14 22:21 ` Randy Brukardt
2009-08-14 22:51 ` Adam Beneschan
2009-07-24 7:00 ` A few Ada questions Dmitry A. Kazakov
2009-07-24 15:26 ` Colin Paul Gloster
2009-07-24 15:01 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2009-07-18 16:27 ` Alternatives to C: ObjectPascal, Eiffel, Ada or Modula-3? BGB / cr88192
2009-07-18 17:41 ` Ben Bacarisse
2009-07-20 10:39 ` Nicholas Paul Collin Gloucester
2009-07-20 16:17 ` Ben Bacarisse
2009-07-21 12:10 ` Jon Harrop
2009-07-21 14:40 ` Colin Paul Gloster
2009-07-22 0:25 ` Andrew Reilly
2009-07-19 1:04 ` Andrew Reilly
2009-07-19 13:14 ` mockturtle
2009-07-19 13:35 ` Andrea Taverna
2009-07-19 15:28 ` Pascal J. Bourguignon
2009-07-19 17:30 ` Hibou57 (Yannick Duchêne)
2009-07-19 18:02 ` Georg Bauhaus
2009-07-19 19:09 ` Hibou57 (Yannick Duchêne)
2009-07-19 19:14 ` Pascal J. Bourguignon
2009-07-19 19:51 ` Georg Bauhaus
2009-07-19 19:52 ` tm
2009-07-20 9:57 ` Jean-Pierre Rosen
2009-07-20 13:42 ` Hibou57 (Yannick Duchêne)
2009-07-20 14:37 ` tm
2009-07-20 15:14 ` Jean-Pierre Rosen
2009-07-24 7:26 ` tm
2009-07-24 8:10 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2009-07-25 17:39 ` Frank J. Lhota
2009-07-25 18:12 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2009-07-24 21:15 ` Wolfgang Ehrhardt
2009-07-24 22:29 ` bartc
2009-07-26 10:55 ` tm
2009-07-26 12:14 ` bartc
2009-07-26 13:21 ` Pascal J. Bourguignon
2009-07-26 15:43 ` bartc
2009-07-20 15:46 ` Georg Bauhaus
2009-07-20 16:08 ` Ben Bacarisse
2009-07-20 19:48 ` Tetrahedral Quartz
2009-07-26 2:26 ` wwilson
2009-07-20 12:15 ` Nicholas Paul Collin Gloucester
2009-07-20 12:59 ` Mark T.B. Carroll
2009-07-20 13:18 ` Nicholas Paul Collin Gloucester
2009-07-20 13:21 ` Mark T.B. Carroll
2009-07-20 14:49 ` Nicholas Paul Collin Gloucester
2009-07-20 18:33 ` Cesar Rabak
2009-07-20 18:49 ` Hibou57 (Yannick Duchêne)
2009-07-20 19:35 ` Cesar Rabak
2009-07-20 21:54 ` Georg Bauhaus
2009-07-21 7:39 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2009-07-21 14:30 ` Cesar Rabak
2009-07-21 15:17 ` Martin
2009-07-20 19:23 ` Georg Bauhaus
2009-07-20 19:55 ` Cesar Rabak
2009-07-21 12:49 ` Colin Paul Gloster
2009-07-20 19:44 ` Nicholas Paul Collin Gloucester
2009-07-20 20:14 ` Cesar Rabak
2009-07-20 22:22 ` Ludovic Brenta
2009-07-21 1:33 ` Cesar Rabak
2009-07-21 7:54 ` Ludovic Brenta
2009-07-21 7:59 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2009-07-21 13:08 ` Colin Paul Gloster
2009-07-21 12:43 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2009-07-21 14:48 ` Cesar Rabak
2009-07-21 14:45 ` Cesar Rabak
2009-07-21 15:46 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2009-07-21 17:34 ` Colin Paul Gloster
2009-07-21 8:56 ` Jean-Pierre Rosen
2009-07-21 9:31 ` Georg Bauhaus
2009-07-21 15:02 ` Cesar Rabak
2009-07-21 16:42 ` Georg Bauhaus
2009-07-21 18:00 ` Cesar Rabak
2009-07-22 14:10 ` Colin Paul Gloster
2009-07-22 14:54 ` Cesar Rabak
2010-03-24 2:46 ` Robert Love
2010-03-25 15:51 ` Colin Paul Gloster
2009-07-21 17:37 ` Colin Paul Gloster
2009-07-21 14:08 ` Hibou57 (Yannick Duchêne)
2009-07-21 13:38 ` Colin Paul Gloster
2009-07-21 15:25 ` Cesar Rabak
2009-07-21 17:48 ` Colin Paul Gloster
2009-07-23 18:47 ` Jon Harrop
2009-07-23 19:20 ` Colin Paul Gloster
2009-07-23 21:51 ` Jon Harrop
2009-07-24 1:08 ` Cesar Rabak
2009-07-24 7:04 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2009-07-22 19:29 ` sjw
2009-07-22 20:05 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2009-07-23 12:01 ` Colin Paul Gloster
2009-07-24 1:19 ` Cesar Rabak
2009-07-24 8:50 ` Georg Bauhaus
2009-07-24 15:56 ` Colin Paul Gloster
2009-07-24 16:52 ` Colin Paul Gloster
2009-07-24 18:36 ` Cesar Rabak
2009-07-24 21:46 ` Robert A Duff
2009-07-25 14:32 ` jimmaureenrogers
2009-07-25 17:31 ` Cesar Rabak
2009-07-21 12:25 ` Jon Harrop
2009-07-21 11:41 ` Martin
2009-07-21 14:09 ` Jon Harrop
2009-07-21 13:41 ` Martin
2009-07-21 13:45 ` Martin
2009-07-21 13:58 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2009-07-21 16:06 ` Jon Harrop
2009-07-21 15:54 ` Georg Bauhaus
2009-07-22 9:37 ` Jon Harrop
2009-07-22 9:19 ` Georg Bauhaus
2009-07-22 7:53 ` Martin [this message]
2009-07-22 9:18 ` Jon Harrop
2009-07-21 23:17 ` Robert A Duff
2009-07-21 14:12 ` Andrea Taverna
2009-07-21 14:14 ` Hibou57 (Yannick Duchêne)
2009-07-21 14:38 ` Hibou57 (Yannick Duchêne)
2009-07-21 15:29 ` Mark T.B. Carroll
2009-07-21 16:10 ` Jon Harrop
2009-07-22 8:16 ` Martin
2009-07-22 18:59 ` Jon Harrop
2009-07-24 8:15 ` tm
2009-07-24 9:31 ` Jon Harrop
2009-07-24 9:42 ` Georg Bauhaus
2009-07-24 13:03 ` Jon Harrop
2009-07-24 10:15 ` tm
2009-07-24 13:11 ` Jon Harrop
2009-07-24 13:01 ` tm
2009-07-24 14:42 ` Jon Harrop
2009-07-25 1:15 ` wwilson
2009-07-25 6:05 ` robertwessel2
2009-07-25 9:24 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2009-07-26 2:10 ` wwilson
2009-07-26 3:27 ` Andrew Reilly
2009-07-26 10:08 ` bartc
2009-07-27 11:28 ` Colin Paul Gloster
2009-07-28 5:01 ` wwilson
2009-07-28 10:13 ` Colin Paul Gloster
2009-07-28 12:29 ` Dave Seaman
2009-07-28 12:42 ` Peter Hermann
2009-07-28 18:35 ` wwilson
2009-07-21 13:09 ` parnell
2009-07-28 20:57 ` fft1976
2009-07-28 21:59 ` Georg Bauhaus
2009-07-28 22:01 ` Ludovic Brenta
2009-07-30 3:04 ` fft1976
2009-07-30 6:47 ` Martin
2009-07-28 23:14 ` Jon Harrop
2009-08-01 19:46 ` frankenstein
2009-08-01 21:56 ` Paul Rubin
2009-08-01 23:28 ` Jon Harrop
2009-08-02 10:07 ` frankenstein
2009-08-02 18:55 ` Jon Harrop
2009-08-02 9:48 ` frankenstein
2009-07-29 0:40 ` Oxide Scrubber
2009-07-29 2:52 ` fft1976
2009-07-29 4:46 ` Oxide Scrubber
2009-07-29 7:50 ` Elena
2009-07-29 15:06 ` Andrea Taverna
2009-07-29 8:11 ` Ray Blaak
2009-07-29 9:57 ` learn2code
2009-07-29 11:38 ` Oxide Scrubber
2009-07-29 14:03 ` learn2code
2009-07-29 14:35 ` Pascal J. Bourguignon
2009-07-29 17:02 ` Oxide Scrubber
2009-08-03 11:19 ` oxhiderubber
2009-07-29 21:10 ` Jon Harrop
[not found] ` <kctwcdo5pewe.1ut3dcff8axm0$.dlg@40tude.net>
2009-07-29 21:18 ` Jon Harrop
2009-07-29 16:36 ` Colin Paul Gloster
2009-07-29 17:22 ` Ray Blaak
2009-07-29 18:44 ` Martin
2009-07-29 20:58 ` Jon Harrop
2009-07-29 15:19 ` Andrea Taverna
2009-07-29 19:25 ` Jon Harrop
2009-07-30 2:11 ` tmoran
2009-07-30 2:34 ` fft1976
2009-07-30 2:48 ` Paul Rubin
2009-07-30 3:40 ` fft1976
2009-07-30 3:53 ` Paul Rubin
2009-07-30 6:51 ` Georg Bauhaus
2009-07-30 7:52 ` fft1976
2009-07-30 8:34 ` Ludovic Brenta
2009-07-30 16:10 ` Georg Bauhaus
2009-07-30 17:09 ` fft1976
2009-07-30 17:20 ` Pascal Obry
2009-07-30 17:28 ` fft1976
2009-07-30 17:47 ` Isaac Gouy
2009-07-31 10:48 ` Georg Bauhaus
2009-07-30 17:23 ` Ludovic Brenta
2009-07-30 17:59 ` Isaac Gouy
2009-07-30 19:38 ` fft1976
2009-07-30 21:44 ` Isaac Gouy
2009-07-30 22:14 ` Paul Rubin
2009-07-31 10:27 ` Georg Bauhaus
2009-07-31 11:13 ` Georg Bauhaus
2009-07-31 11:29 ` Georg Bauhaus
2009-07-31 16:38 ` Isaac Gouy
2009-07-30 16:25 ` Isaac Gouy
2009-07-30 12:28 ` Colin Paul Gloster
2009-07-30 11:49 ` Martin
2010-03-23 12:31 ` balson
2010-03-23 12:56 ` balson
2010-03-23 13:24 ` Georg Bauhaus
2010-03-23 15:05 ` Maciej Sobczak
2010-03-23 17:52 ` Georg Bauhaus
2010-03-24 6:33 ` Martin Krischik
2010-03-24 8:31 ` Maciej Sobczak
2010-03-23 16:50 ` Warren
2010-03-23 20:29 ` Patrick Scheible
2010-03-24 15:07 ` Warren
2010-03-24 21:11 ` Patrick Scheible
2010-03-24 21:27 ` Pascal J. Bourguignon
2010-03-24 22:14 ` Adam Beneschan
2010-03-24 23:15 ` Patrick Scheible
2010-03-24 23:24 ` Adam Beneschan
2010-03-24 23:28 ` Patricia Shanahan
2010-03-25 1:52 ` John B. Matthews
2010-03-25 16:42 ` Andrew Haley
2010-03-26 23:54 ` Pascal J. Bourguignon
2010-03-24 21:36 ` Adam Beneschan
2010-03-26 7:58 ` Martin Krischik
2010-04-12 11:03 ` Ole-Hjalmar Kristensen
2010-03-24 6:28 ` Martin Krischik
2010-03-24 15:10 ` Warren
2010-03-25 2:19 ` Mike Sieweke
2010-03-25 13:48 ` Robert A Duff
2010-03-25 15:42 ` Colin Paul Gloster
2010-03-26 15:54 ` blmblm
2010-03-26 19:18 ` Warren
2010-03-27 0:03 ` Pascal J. Bourguignon
2010-03-23 17:12 ` J-P. Rosen
2010-03-23 17:41 ` Jim Balson
2010-03-23 17:54 ` Pascal Obry
2010-03-23 18:34 ` jpwoodruff
2010-03-23 20:34 ` Patrick Scheible
2010-03-23 20:33 ` Patrick Scheible
2010-03-23 20:39 ` Pascal Obry
2010-03-24 6:24 ` Martin Krischik
2010-03-23 19:33 ` Adam Beneschan
2010-03-23 22:02 ` Mensanator
2010-03-31 6:55 ` David Thompson
2010-03-31 8:08 ` Martin Krischik
2010-03-24 15:15 ` Warren
2010-03-25 15:46 ` Colin Paul Gloster
2010-03-27 0:53 ` Andrea Taverna
2010-03-27 6:19 ` Gautier write-only
2010-03-23 17:31 ` Patrick Scheible
-- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2010-03-23 18:57 cbcurl
2010-03-23 20:27 ` John B. Matthews
2010-03-23 21:34 ` Adam Beneschan
2010-03-24 2:08 ` John B. Matthews
2010-03-24 15:23 ` Warren
2010-03-24 16:57 ` Adam Beneschan
2010-03-24 20:00 ` Warren
2010-03-24 20:48 ` Adam Beneschan
2010-03-25 13:45 ` Warren
2010-03-26 8:20 ` Martin Krischik
2010-03-26 19:21 ` Warren
2010-03-28 15:07 ` Martin Krischik
2010-03-29 13:28 ` Warren
2010-03-26 8:05 ` Martin Krischik
2010-03-26 8:02 ` Martin Krischik
2010-03-26 19:24 ` Warren
2010-03-28 14:54 ` Martin Krischik
2010-03-29 13:31 ` Warren
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