Re: Any research putting c above ada?

[clines@delete_this.airmail.net (Kevin Cline)]

John Apa <japa@DIE_SPAMMER.dasd.honeywell.com> wrote:

>I have an EE degree. Many of my friends were CS majors. All very smart
>and also unprepared for the job market (for better or worse, many live
>in Redmond now, SW hell I think). 

What makes you think Microsoft is a bad place to work?  They have developed
software that a great many people find extremely useful.  To me, it beats the
heck out of developing a one-off application that may or may not be fielded.
It also pays better.

>They were taught the wonderful
>languages of lisp, algol, and other "interesting" languages. However,
>these are things that do not help you find a job. 

I interview one or two people a week, from new college hires to very
experienced professionals.  It is not true that studying LISP and ALGOL
will not help you get a job.  Actually, although we program in C++, I do not
really care what languages candidates know, provided that
they can demonstrate knowledge commensurate with their training and
experience.  If a new graduate can give me some good reasons why they enjoyed
programming in LISP more than in ALGOL, I will hire them, because they are
likely to have a solid understanding of C++ (or any other language) in short
order.  

>Which, I think most people will agree, is the main goal of most people going to college.
>College is not about learning, it's about jumping through all the right
>hoops and writing down what the profs want to see. 

I don't recommend anyone with this attitude, because we need adults with
problem solving skills, not juvenile grade-grubbers.  A low GPA will make it
harder for you to get an interview, but a high GPA is no guarantee of a job.
We just turned down an MSCS graduate with a 3.5+ GPA, because the candidate
couldn't demonstrate any understanding of the coursework.

> Anyone who doesn't
>believe that has probably never pointed out a design error to a prof in
>class. Granted this is worst case but in my (and many of my associates
>and friends) experience this is the way many profs work. 

That is truly unfortunate.  However, with industry salaries for top-notch
experienced professionals in six figures now, it is hard to get good
instruction for $100/credit hour.  If you do, be grateful; it's charity.

> I did have a few, maybe 5, profs who were able to teach and encouraged us. 

Five!  That's not so bad.  I hope you learned everything you could from them,
and took all possible steps to complain about the rest.

>We will always need people in academia to do research, but at the same
>time someone has to know how to go out and engineer solutions to real
>world problems. After all, someone has to keep the planes in the air.

Which is hard to do with no understanding of fundamental data structures and
algorithms.

>I have long thought that we need to have a degree in the field of
>Software Engineering for those who want to learn how to apply SW
>technology to the real world. 

There are many schools that have more practical programs.
But I believe that some knowledge of CS theory is required to work effectively
on new applications.  I do not recommend candidates who are unable to
demonstrate some knowledge of CS theory.

>CS could be free to remain dedicated to
>doing the pure research that so many of the profs love. It would also
>give students more freedom to chose their career direction.

Few undergraduates know enough to choose their career direction.
But a good understanding of CS opens the most doors, and leads to the most
rewarding careers.

>CS covers many great things, but solving design problems is not one of
>them (at least in my experience). 

There is not enough time in an undergraduate cirriculum to teach SW
engineering judgment.  But there are plenty of excellent books on the subject.
I suggest you try to read one technical book a month.  Soon you will be well
ahead of your classmates.