From: "Tim Behrendsen" <tim@airshields.com>
Subject: Re: What's the best language to start with? [was: Re: Should I learn C or Pascal?]
Date: 1996/08/08
Date: 1996-08-08T00:00:00+00:00 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <01bb853b$ca4c8e00$87ee6fce@timpent.airshields.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: 4uah1k$b2o@solutions.solon.com
Peter Seebach <seebs@solutions.solon.com> wrote in article
<4uah1k$b2o@solutions.solon.com>...
> In article <01bb83f5$923391e0$87ee6fce@timpent.airshields.com>,
> Tim Behrendsen <tim@airshields.com> wrote:
> >I agree; my point is that I think the student learns more if they
> >are thinking purely in terms of fundamental operations (which are
> >still abstractions above the raw hardware components), rather
> >than layers and layers of syntax that hide the essential essence
> >of what the computer is doing.
>
> But your concept of what the "fundemental operations" are is completely
tied
> up in how specific hardware you've seen operates. Algorithms exist in
terms
> of abstract operations, not moves and branches.
Please name me the hardware that does not use moves and branches.
> Something like CWEB might be a good language in which to learn
algorithms.
> Scheme might too.
>
> Let's look at a specific algorithm; the infamous gcd(x, y).
>
> In C, we write
>
> int
> gcd(int x, int y) {
> if (y == 0)
> return x;
> return gcd(y, (x % y));
> }
>
> or something similar.
>
> What's important here is not any theories people may have about where the
x
> and y are stored, or how a stack works, but the concept that you can
define an
> algorithm in terms of a previous case. Learning that the if() may be
> implemented with "a branch" does not help the student understand how the
> *algorithm* works, it helps the student understand how the *compiler*
works.
> These are distinct things.
This is an interesting case, because it is somewhat inefficently
implemented. If you're interested in speed, you would do...
int gcd(int x, int y) {
int z;
while (y != 0)
z = y; y = x % y; x = z;
return(y);
}
Using my AIX compiler, I get a nominal improvement of about
10%, mostly because the speed of the modulo is much slower
than the inefficiency of recursion.
My point is that how does a C programmer know that recursive
implementations are somewhat inefficient? Recently the C/C++
Users Journal had a little bite-sized article about a
general looping algorithm, where you could specify the number
of nested loops in a dynamic fashion. It was implemented
recursively. I wrote a letter back reimplementing the
algorithm non-recursively, and got like a 40% increase in
speed.
These sorts of issues are where code bloat comes from, and
it comes from naive implementations of "valid C syntax".
> >If programming is reduced to fundamentals of move, arithmetic,
> >test, branch, etc it prevents the student from leaning on the
> >abstraction rather than truly understanding the solution to the
> >problem. In other words, if they can express it in the above
> >terms, you *know* they understand the solution.
>
> But it also prevents them from learning the abstraction, and truly
> understanding the *principle* of the solution.
If the C abstraction is good, more abstraction must be better
then. How about we teach everything in APL, where we can
*really* abstract away the details? No data types, full
array operations. Talk about easy quicksort! I can write it
in one line of code using a handful of operations (my APL
is *really* rusty, so I can't give the example).
The student learns Quicksort, there is no question about it.
But what have they *really* learned?
[snip]
> Nonsense. A well designed and considered abstraction will generally lend
> itself to an efficient and elegant implementation. An ill-considered
> abstraction will spend more time on cruft than it will on solving the
problem.
Like recursive algorithms?
[snip]
> >It is simply not
> >possible to ignore the way code is structured, and completely
> >depend on the compiler to save us. That is just not the
> >real world.
>
> No, but I have never seen a good algorithm that didn't lend itself to
elegant
> and efficient implementation. If we do decent designs first, and worry
about
> implementation second, we will find the implementation to be pleasant,
easy,
> and efficient.
Well, now you have (see above) :)
> >At least not my world, where I have to pack as many users
> >as possible onto one CPU.
>
> Compare the *efficiency* for this purpose of Unix, which is designed, and
> MS-DOS, which has had millions of dollars thrown at making it as
efficient as
> possible. Compare also things like NT and Berkeley Unix. You *have* to
do
> your design in theoretical terms before you think about implementation,
or you
> end up with a system where 32 megs is seen as too small to run multiple
users,
> and you need a third party add-on to do it anyway.
>
> The Berkeley people have thrown out more code than the system has in it.
The
> algorithms are designed based on the *algorithmic* weaknesses of previous
> designs. Hardware efficiency is evaluated only after you've found a good
> algorithm. And they get excellent performance.
Agreed; but there are general principles that can be learned
across *all* architectures. See follow up to Dan Pop post for
example of this.
-- Tim Behrendsen (tim@airshields.com)
next prev parent reply other threads:[~1996-08-08 0:00 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 695+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
[not found] <sperlman-0507961717550001@p121.ezo.net>
[not found] ` <4rs76l$aqd@ccshst05.uoguelph.ca>
1996-07-15 0:00 ` Should I learn C or Pascal? Ralph Silverman
1996-07-15 0:00 ` Steve Sobol
1996-07-16 0:00 ` Lee Crites
1996-07-17 0:00 ` David Verschoore
1996-07-17 0:00 ` Mark McKinney
1996-07-19 0:00 ` Philip Brashear
1996-07-23 0:00 ` John A Hughes
1996-07-26 0:00 ` Randy Kaelber
1996-07-29 0:00 ` Ralph Silverman
1996-08-06 0:00 ` StHeller
1996-07-17 0:00 ` Anthony Kanner
1996-07-20 0:00 ` TRAN PHAN ANH
1996-07-20 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1996-07-22 0:00 ` TRAN PHAN ANH
1996-07-23 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
1996-07-20 0:00 ` Mark Eissler
1996-07-25 0:00 ` Erik Seaberg
1996-07-26 0:00 ` What's the best language to start with? [was: Re: Should I learn C or Pascal?] Tim Behrendsen
1996-07-27 0:00 ` Rick Elbers
1996-07-28 0:00 ` Mark Eissler
1996-07-28 0:00 ` J. Christian Blanchette
1996-07-28 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1996-07-29 0:00 ` Tim Behrendsen
1996-07-30 0:00 ` Arra Avakian
1996-07-31 0:00 ` Stephen M O'Shaughnessy
1996-07-31 0:00 ` James Youngman
1996-08-02 0:00 ` Tim Behrendsen
1996-08-05 0:00 ` Henrik Wetterstrom
1996-08-05 0:00 ` Fergus Henderson
1996-08-06 0:00 ` Tim Behrendsen
1996-08-06 0:00 ` Dan Pop
1996-08-06 0:00 ` Tim Behrendsen
1996-08-06 0:00 ` Peter Seebach
1996-08-07 0:00 ` Tim Behrendsen
1996-08-07 0:00 ` James A. Squire
1996-08-07 0:00 ` Peter Seebach
1996-08-08 0:00 ` Tim Behrendsen
1996-08-08 0:00 ` Peter Seebach
1996-08-08 0:00 ` David Weller
1996-08-09 0:00 ` Bob Gilbert
1996-08-10 0:00 ` Tim Behrendsen
1996-08-11 0:00 ` Craig Franck
1996-08-11 0:00 ` Tim Behrendsen
1996-08-11 0:00 ` Peter Seebach
1996-08-11 0:00 ` Tim Behrendsen
1996-08-12 0:00 ` Alf P. Steinbach
1996-08-12 0:00 ` Tim Behrendsen
1996-08-13 0:00 ` Szu-Wen Huang
1996-08-07 0:00 ` Mark Eissler
[not found] ` <01bb83cc$fb <tequila-0708960947140001@tequila.interlog.com>
1996-08-07 0:00 ` Peter Seebach
1996-08-06 0:00 ` Szu-Wen Huang
1996-08-06 0:00 ` Tim Behrendsen
1996-08-06 0:00 ` Peter Seebach
1996-08-07 0:00 ` Tim Behrendsen
1996-08-07 0:00 ` Dan Pop
1996-08-08 0:00 ` Christopher R Volpe
1996-08-08 0:00 ` Tim Behrendsen
1996-08-08 0:00 ` Peter Seebach
1996-08-08 0:00 ` Randy Kaelber
1996-08-09 0:00 ` Chris Sonnack
1996-08-10 0:00 ` Tim Behrendsen
1996-08-11 0:00 ` Chris Sonnack
1996-08-11 0:00 ` Dan Pop
1996-08-12 0:00 ` Tim Behrendsen
1996-08-12 0:00 ` Chris Sonnack
1996-08-15 0:00 ` Bob Hoffmann
1996-08-09 0:00 ` J. Blustein
1996-08-11 0:00 ` Peter Seebach
1996-08-09 0:00 ` Dan Pop
1996-08-11 0:00 ` Mark Wooding
1996-08-19 0:00 ` James Youngman
1996-08-11 0:00 ` Tim Behrendsen
1996-08-11 0:00 ` Dan Pop
1996-08-13 0:00 ` Tim Behrendsen
1996-08-13 0:00 ` Giuliano Carlini
1996-08-14 0:00 ` Dan Pop
1996-08-14 0:00 ` Tim Behrendsen
1996-08-16 0:00 ` Dik T. Winter
1996-08-12 0:00 ` Peter Seebach
1996-08-13 0:00 ` Tim Behrendsen
1996-08-18 0:00 ` Sam B. Siegel
1996-08-19 0:00 ` Dan Pop
1996-08-07 0:00 ` Peter Seebach
1996-08-08 0:00 ` Tim Behrendsen [this message]
1996-08-08 0:00 ` telnet user
1996-08-09 0:00 ` Tim Behrendsen
1996-08-09 0:00 ` Ed Hook
1996-08-08 0:00 ` Peter Seebach
1996-08-08 0:00 ` Tim Behrendsen
1996-08-08 0:00 ` Peter Seebach
1996-08-14 0:00 ` Richard A. O'Keefe
1996-08-16 0:00 ` Tim Behrendsen
1996-08-20 0:00 ` Richard A. O'Keefe
1996-08-20 0:00 ` Alan Bowler
1996-08-21 0:00 ` Tim Behrendsen
1996-08-22 0:00 ` Bengt Richter
1996-08-22 0:00 ` Tim Behrendsen
1996-08-31 0:00 ` Bengt Richter
1996-09-01 0:00 ` Maurice M. Carey IV
1996-08-26 0:00 ` Richard A. O'Keefe
1996-08-26 0:00 ` madscientist
1996-08-29 0:00 ` Richard A. O'Keefe
1996-08-26 0:00 ` Tim Behrendsen
1996-08-29 0:00 ` Richard A. O'Keefe
1996-08-29 0:00 ` Craig Franck
[not found] ` <01bb95ba$9dfed580$496700cf@ljelmore.montana>
1996-08-30 0:00 ` Steve Heller
1996-08-31 0:00 ` Clayton Weaver
1996-08-30 0:00 ` system
1996-08-31 0:00 ` Kenneth Mays
1996-09-01 0:00 ` Tim Behrendsen
1996-08-26 0:00 ` Mark Wooding
1996-08-30 0:00 ` Kaz Kylheku
1996-08-30 0:00 ` Richard A. O'Keefe
1996-08-30 0:00 ` Peter Seebach
1996-09-03 0:00 ` Lawrence Kirby
1996-09-01 0:00 ` Joe Keane
1996-09-04 0:00 ` Richard A. O'Keefe
1996-09-03 0:00 ` Arkady Belousov
1996-08-31 0:00 ` Tanmoy Bhattacharya
1996-09-04 0:00 ` Tom Payne
1996-09-04 0:00 ` Patrick Horgan
1996-09-05 0:00 ` Richard A. O'Keefe
1996-09-05 0:00 ` deafen
1996-08-09 0:00 ` Chris Sonnack
1996-08-09 0:00 ` Mike Rubenstein
1996-08-09 0:00 ` Tim Behrendsen
1996-08-10 0:00 ` Mike Rubenstein
1996-08-12 0:00 ` Tim Behrendsen
1996-08-12 0:00 ` Mike Rubenstein
1996-08-12 0:00 ` Tim Behrendsen
1996-08-13 0:00 ` Mike Rubenstein
1996-08-13 0:00 ` Tim Behrendsen
1996-08-13 0:00 ` Giuliano Carlini
1996-08-14 0:00 ` Tim Behrendsen
1996-08-15 0:00 ` Mike Rubenstein
[not found] ` <32 <01bb8923$e1d34280$87ee6fce@timpent.airshields.com>
1996-08-14 0:00 ` Peter Seebach
1996-08-14 0:00 ` Tim Behrendsen
1996-08-14 0:00 ` Peter Seebach
1996-08-12 0:00 ` Mark Wooding
1996-08-13 0:00 ` Mike Rubenstein
1996-08-15 0:00 ` Richard A. O'Keefe
1996-08-12 0:00 ` Bob Kitzberger
1996-08-22 0:00 ` Patrick Horgan
1996-08-23 0:00 ` Steve Heller
1996-08-08 0:00 ` Teaching sorts [was Re: What's the best language to start with?] Robert I. Eachus
1996-08-09 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1996-08-10 0:00 ` Al Aab
1996-08-10 0:00 ` Lawrence Kirby
1996-08-12 0:00 ` Steve Heller
1996-08-12 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1996-08-16 0:00 ` Steve Heller
1996-08-16 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1996-08-18 0:00 ` Steve Heller
1996-08-18 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1996-08-18 0:00 ` Steve Heller
1996-08-18 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1996-08-20 0:00 ` Steve Heller
1996-08-16 0:00 ` Adam Beneschan
1996-08-18 0:00 ` Steve Heller
1996-08-18 0:00 ` Jeff Dege
1996-08-18 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1996-08-16 0:00 ` Szu-Wen Huang
1996-08-17 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1996-08-20 0:00 ` Szu-Wen Huang
1996-08-20 0:00 ` Dann Corbit
1996-08-21 0:00 ` Tim Behrendsen
1996-08-21 0:00 ` Dann Corbit
1996-08-22 0:00 ` Richard A. O'Keefe
1996-08-22 0:00 ` Szu-Wen Huang
1996-08-23 0:00 ` Richard A. O'Keefe
1996-08-25 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1996-08-21 0:00 ` Dik T. Winter
1996-08-21 0:00 ` Tim Behrendsen
1996-08-21 0:00 ` Pete Becker
1996-08-22 0:00 ` Szu-Wen Huang
1996-08-22 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1996-08-22 0:00 ` Pete Becker
1996-08-21 0:00 ` Tanmoy Bhattacharya
1996-08-22 0:00 ` Mike Rubenstein
1996-08-22 0:00 ` Dann Corbit
1996-08-21 0:00 ` Matt Austern
1996-08-21 0:00 ` Tim Behrendsen
1996-08-22 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1996-08-24 0:00 ` Joe Keane
1996-08-22 0:00 ` Tanmoy Bhattacharya
1996-08-21 0:00 ` Tanmoy Bhattacharya
1996-08-21 0:00 ` Tim Behrendsen
1996-08-22 0:00 ` Mike Rubenstein
1996-08-22 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1996-08-21 0:00 ` Adam Beneschan
1996-08-22 0:00 ` Andrew Koenig
1996-08-24 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1996-08-22 0:00 ` Christian Bau
1996-08-22 0:00 ` (topic change on) Teaching sorts Marcus H. Mendenhall
1996-08-27 0:00 ` Ralph Silverman
1996-08-22 0:00 ` Teaching sorts [was Re: What's the best language to start with?] Larry Kilgallen
1996-08-23 0:00 ` Tim Hollebeek
1996-08-24 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1996-08-24 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1996-08-23 0:00 ` Andrew Koenig
1996-08-17 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1996-08-18 0:00 ` Steve Heller
1996-08-21 0:00 ` Matt Austern
1996-08-23 0:00 ` Tanmoy Bhattacharya
1996-08-23 0:00 ` Adam Beneschan
1996-08-14 0:00 ` Stephen Baynes
1996-08-14 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1996-08-14 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1996-08-16 0:00 ` Dik T. Winter
1996-08-16 0:00 ` Joe Foster
1996-08-18 0:00 ` Glenn Rhoads
1996-08-19 0:00 ` Stephen Baynes
1996-08-19 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1996-08-19 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1996-08-19 0:00 ` Richard A. O'Keefe
[not found] ` <dewar.840491732@schonberg>
1996-08-19 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1996-08-22 0:00 ` Stephen Baynes
1996-08-27 0:00 ` Richard A. O'Keefe
1996-08-13 0:00 ` Robert I. Eachus
1996-08-14 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1996-08-15 0:00 ` Tom Payne
1996-08-13 0:00 ` Robert I. Eachus
1996-08-13 0:00 ` Lawrence Kirby
1996-08-14 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1996-08-14 0:00 ` Robert I. Eachus
1996-08-15 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1996-08-15 0:00 ` Blair Phillips
1996-08-27 0:00 ` What's the best language to start with? [was: Re: Should I learn C or Pascal?] Tanmoy Bhattacharya
1996-08-29 0:00 ` Robert I. Eachus
1996-08-30 0:00 ` Steve Heller
1996-08-30 0:00 ` Tanmoy Bhattacharya
1996-08-07 0:00 ` What's the best language to start with Ian Ward
1996-08-08 0:00 ` Tim Behrendsen
1996-08-09 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1996-08-11 0:00 ` What's the best language to start with? [was: Re: Should I learn C or Pascal?] Jerone A. Bowers
1996-08-06 0:00 ` Fergus Henderson
1996-08-07 0:00 ` Tim Behrendsen
1996-08-08 0:00 ` Thomas Hood
1996-08-09 0:00 ` Tim Behrendsen
1996-08-17 0:00 ` Lawrence Kirby
1996-08-17 0:00 ` Tim Behrendsen
1996-08-19 0:00 ` Bob Gilbert
1996-08-19 0:00 ` Tim Behrendsen
1996-08-19 0:00 ` Tim Hollebeek
1996-08-20 0:00 ` Tim Behrendsen
1996-08-20 0:00 ` Bob Gilbert
1996-08-21 0:00 ` Tim Behrendsen
1996-08-22 0:00 ` Bob Gilbert
1996-08-22 0:00 ` Tim Behrendsen
1996-09-04 0:00 ` Lawrence Kirby
1996-09-04 0:00 ` Tim Behrendsen
1996-09-06 0:00 ` Bob Gilbert
1996-09-06 0:00 ` Tim Behrendsen
1996-09-09 0:00 ` Bob Gilbert
1996-09-11 0:00 ` Tim Behrendsen
1996-09-10 0:00 ` Jon S Anthony
1996-09-11 0:00 ` Richard A. O'Keefe
1996-09-10 0:00 ` Richard A. O'Keefe
1996-09-10 0:00 ` Kaz Kylheku
1996-09-11 0:00 ` Bob Gilbert
1996-09-11 0:00 ` Jon S Anthony
1996-09-11 0:00 ` Jon S Anthony
1996-09-05 0:00 ` Mark Wooding
1996-09-06 0:00 ` Bob Cousins
1996-09-06 0:00 ` Tim Behrendsen
1996-09-07 0:00 ` Craig Franck
1996-09-08 0:00 ` Tim Behrendsen
1996-09-08 0:00 ` Craig Franck
1996-09-09 0:00 ` Tim Behrendsen
1996-09-10 0:00 ` Richard A. O'Keefe
1996-09-10 0:00 ` Tim Behrendsen
1996-09-11 0:00 ` John Burdick
1996-09-13 0:00 ` Bengt Richter
1996-09-14 0:00 ` Craig Franck
1996-09-06 0:00 ` Robert I. Eachus
1996-09-06 0:00 ` Tim Behrendsen
1996-09-11 0:00 ` Richard A. O'Keefe
1996-09-11 0:00 ` Tim Behrendsen
1996-09-12 0:00 ` Richard A. O'Keefe
1996-09-13 0:00 ` Tim Behrendsen
1996-09-13 0:00 ` Richard A. O'Keefe
1996-09-18 0:00 ` Tim Behrendsen
1996-09-19 0:00 ` Richard A. O'Keefe
1996-09-12 0:00 ` Peter Seebach
1996-09-18 0:00 ` Tim Behrendsen
1996-09-17 0:00 ` George
1996-09-19 0:00 ` Tim Behrendsen
1996-09-24 0:00 ` Matthew M. Lih
1996-09-25 0:00 ` Richard A. O'Keefe
1996-09-26 0:00 ` Mark Wooding
1996-09-25 0:00 ` Bjarne Stroustrup
1996-09-26 0:00 ` Bengt Richter
1996-09-28 0:00 ` Dan Pop
1996-09-26 0:00 ` Jon S Anthony
1996-09-26 0:00 ` Dann Corbit
1996-09-27 0:00 ` Craig Franck
1996-09-27 0:00 ` Bob Cousins
1996-09-27 0:00 ` Jay Martin
1996-09-27 0:00 ` Tim Behrendsen
1996-09-30 0:00 ` Art Schwarz
1996-09-27 0:00 ` Kent Budge
1996-09-27 0:00 ` George Haddad
1996-09-27 0:00 ` George Haddad
1996-09-27 0:00 ` George Haddad
1996-09-28 0:00 ` Matthew Heaney
1996-09-27 0:00 ` George Haddad
1996-09-27 0:00 ` George Haddad
1996-09-28 0:00 ` Steve Heller
1996-10-01 0:00 ` DJ Kindberg
1996-09-28 0:00 ` Jon S Anthony
1996-09-11 0:00 ` Jon S Anthony
1996-09-11 0:00 ` Jon S Anthony
1996-09-11 0:00 ` Craig Franck
1996-09-11 0:00 ` Tim Behrendsen
1996-09-17 0:00 ` George
1996-09-24 0:00 ` Joel VanLaven
1996-09-27 0:00 ` Dann Corbit
1996-09-27 0:00 ` Tom Payne
1996-09-28 0:00 ` Tim Behrendsen
1996-09-18 0:00 ` Jon S Anthony
1996-09-26 0:00 ` Jon S Anthony
1996-10-01 0:00 ` Andrew Gierth
1996-08-22 0:00 ` Bengt Richter
1996-08-22 0:00 ` Tim Behrendsen
1996-08-23 0:00 ` Larry J. Elmore
1996-08-22 0:00 ` Frank Manning
1996-08-31 0:00 ` Bengt Richter
1996-08-31 0:00 ` Frank Manning
1996-08-31 0:00 ` Frank Manning
1996-09-02 0:00 ` deafen
1996-09-03 0:00 ` Steve Howard
1996-09-03 0:00 ` Frank Manning
1996-09-03 0:00 ` Phil Barnett
1996-09-03 0:00 ` Tim Behrendsen
1996-09-03 0:00 ` Bob Kitzberger
1996-08-08 0:00 ` Stephen M O'Shaughnessy
[not found] ` <01bb846d$ <Dvtnon.I49@most.fw.hac.com>
1996-08-09 0:00 ` Tim Behrendsen
1996-08-09 0:00 ` Stephen M O'Shaughnessy
1996-08-09 0:00 ` Tim Behrendsen
1996-08-12 0:00 ` Robert I. Eachus
1996-08-05 0:00 ` Chris Sonnack
1996-08-06 0:00 ` Stephen M O'Shaughnessy
1996-08-13 0:00 ` Chris Sonnack
1996-08-16 0:00 ` Steve Heller
1996-08-16 0:00 ` John Hobson
1996-07-31 0:00 ` Patrick Horgan
1996-07-31 0:00 ` AJ Musgrove
1996-08-01 0:00 ` Sam Harris
1996-08-02 0:00 ` Eric W. Nikitin
1996-08-01 0:00 ` Tim Hollebeek
1996-08-01 0:00 ` Ken Pizzini
1996-08-03 0:00 ` Raffael Cavallaro
1996-08-05 0:00 ` Chris Sonnack
1996-08-08 0:00 ` William Clodius
1996-08-11 0:00 ` Dik T. Winter
1996-08-11 0:00 ` Fergus Henderson
1996-08-08 0:00 ` William Clodius
1996-08-13 0:00 ` Ole-Hjalmar Kristensen FOU.TD/DELAB
1996-08-14 0:00 ` Richard A. O'Keefe
1996-08-15 0:00 ` Teaching sorts [was Re: What's the best language to start with?] Norman H. Cohen
1996-08-16 0:00 ` Steve Heller
1996-08-19 0:00 ` Ted Dennison
1996-08-23 0:00 ` Richard A. O'Keefe
1996-08-23 0:00 ` Ted Dennison
1996-08-24 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1996-08-27 0:00 ` Richard A. O'Keefe
1996-09-02 0:00 ` Lawrence Kirby
1996-07-28 0:00 ` What's the best language to start with? [was: Re: Should I learn C or Pascal?] Robert Dewar
1996-07-29 0:00 ` Tim Behrendsen
1996-07-30 0:00 ` Paul Campbell
1996-07-30 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1996-08-02 0:00 ` Tim Behrendsen
1996-08-03 0:00 ` Peter Seebach
1996-08-04 0:00 ` Alf P. Steinbach
1996-08-04 0:00 ` Peter Seebach
1996-08-04 0:00 ` Jerry van Dijk
1996-08-05 0:00 ` Tim Behrendsen
1996-08-04 0:00 ` Peter Seebach
1996-08-05 0:00 ` Chris Sonnack
1996-08-05 0:00 ` Peter Seebach
1996-08-07 0:00 ` Tom Watson
1996-08-05 0:00 ` Tim Hollebeek
1996-08-10 0:00 ` Mike Rubenstein
1996-08-06 0:00 ` Tim Behrendsen
1996-08-03 0:00 ` Patrick Horgan
1996-08-04 0:00 ` Kurt E. Huhner
1996-07-30 0:00 ` What's the best language to start with? [was: Re: Should I learn TRAN PHAN ANH
1996-07-31 0:00 ` What's the best language to start with? [was: Re: Should I learn C or Pascal?] Arne W. Flones
1996-08-02 0:00 ` David Wheeler
1996-08-02 0:00 ` Peter Seebach
1996-08-02 0:00 ` Gary M. Greenberg
1996-08-03 0:00 ` Alf P. Steinbach
1996-08-02 0:00 ` Peter Seebach
1996-08-05 0:00 ` Chris Sonnack
1996-08-05 0:00 ` Peter Seebach
1996-08-06 0:00 ` What's the best language to start with? [was: Re: Should I learn C or Pasca StHeller
1996-08-06 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1996-08-06 0:00 ` What's the best language to start with? [was: Re: Should I learn C or Pascal?] Robert I. Eachus
1996-08-06 0:00 ` Conrad Herrmann
1996-08-06 0:00 ` Alf P. Steinbach
1996-07-29 0:00 ` Byron B. Kauffman
1996-07-30 0:00 ` Alan Peake
[not found] ` <dewar. <peake.206.002D549F@dstos3.dsto.gov.au>
1996-07-31 0:00 ` Tim Behrendsen
1996-07-31 0:00 ` Stephen M O'Shaughnessy
1996-08-02 0:00 ` Tim Behrendsen
1996-08-05 0:00 ` Mark McKinney
1996-08-05 0:00 ` Mark McKinney
1996-08-05 0:00 ` Mark McKinney
1996-07-31 0:00 ` P. Cnudde VH14 (8218)
1996-07-31 0:00 ` Nicolas Devillard
1996-08-02 0:00 ` Matt Austern
1996-08-15 0:00 ` Lawrence Kirby
1996-07-20 0:00 ` Should I learn C or Pascal? Andy Askey
1996-07-20 0:00 ` steidl
1996-07-21 0:00 ` Andy Askey
1996-07-22 0:00 ` Stephen M O'Shaughnessy
1996-07-23 0:00 ` TRAN PHAN ANH
1996-07-18 0:00 ` Patrick Horgan
1996-07-18 0:00 ` Jason Alan Turnage
1996-07-19 0:00 ` Vic Metcalfe
1996-07-19 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1996-07-20 0:00 ` steved
1996-07-19 0:00 ` Peter Seebach
1996-07-20 0:00 ` Jon Bell
1996-07-20 0:00 ` Andy Askey
1996-07-20 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1996-07-22 0:00 ` steidl
1996-07-22 0:00 ` Stephen M O'Shaughnessy
1996-07-23 0:00 ` Richard A. O'Keefe
1996-07-23 0:00 ` Michael Ickes
1996-07-25 0:00 ` Andy Askey
1996-07-24 0:00 ` system
1996-07-23 0:00 ` Ralph Silverman
1996-07-18 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1996-07-19 0:00 ` Billy Chambless
1996-07-19 0:00 ` Reto Koradi
1996-07-23 0:00 ` TRAN PHAN ANH
1996-07-19 0:00 ` Andrew Gierth
1996-07-19 0:00 ` Scott McMahan - Softbase Systems
1996-07-20 0:00 ` Tim Behrendsen
1996-07-21 0:00 ` Rich Maggio
1996-07-21 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1996-07-22 0:00 ` Ralph Silverman
1996-07-23 0:00 ` Tim Behrendsen
1996-07-20 0:00 ` steidl
1996-07-18 0:00 ` Walter B. Hollman Sr.
1996-07-18 0:00 ` Carlos DeAngulo
1996-07-18 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
[not found] ` <01bb7588$236982e0$7b91f780@deangulo>
1996-07-19 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1996-07-20 0:00 ` steidl
1996-07-19 0:00 ` Jon Bell
1996-07-22 0:00 ` Tim Oxler
1996-07-22 0:00 ` Stig Norland
1996-07-22 0:00 ` Janus
1996-07-22 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1996-07-30 0:00 ` Tim Behrendsen
1996-07-31 0:00 ` Patrick Horgan
[not found] ` <01bb7591$83087d60$87ee6fce@timpent.airshields.com>
1996-07-19 0:00 ` Craig Franck
1996-07-19 0:00 ` johnf
1996-07-19 0:00 ` Jeremy Nelson
1996-07-19 0:00 ` Jason Alan Turnage
1996-07-19 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1996-07-20 0:00 ` TRAN PHAN ANH
1996-07-22 0:00 ` Ralph Silverman
1996-07-20 0:00 ` Jon Bell
1996-07-20 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1996-07-21 0:00 ` Alexander Vrenios
1996-07-21 0:00 ` Steve Tate
1996-07-21 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1996-07-21 0:00 ` Phil Howard
1996-07-21 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1996-07-22 0:00 ` Steve Tate
1996-07-22 0:00 ` Stephen M O'Shaughnessy
1996-07-25 0:00 ` ++ robin
1996-07-20 0:00 ` Crash
1996-07-20 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1996-07-23 0:00 ` Ralph Silverman
1996-07-22 0:00 ` Stephen M O'Shaughnessy
1996-07-22 0:00 ` Jeremy Nelson
1996-07-22 0:00 ` Stephen M O'Shaughnessy
1996-07-20 0:00 ` Tim Behrendsen
1996-07-22 0:00 ` Ralph Silverman
1996-07-23 0:00 ` Joe Gwinn
1996-07-24 0:00 ` Theodore E. Dennison
1996-07-24 0:00 ` John A Hughes
1996-07-23 0:00 ` John A Hughes
1996-07-19 0:00 ` Dirk Dickmanns
1996-07-23 0:00 ` Richard A. O'Keefe
1996-07-16 0:00 ` Darin Johnson
1996-07-24 0:00 ` Ralph Silverman
1996-07-17 0:00 ` Aron Felix Gurski
1996-07-19 0:00 ` Andrew Gierth
1996-07-19 0:00 ` Andrew Gierth
1996-07-19 0:00 ` Andrew Gierth
1996-07-21 0:00 ` Laurent Guerby
1996-07-22 0:00 ` Stephen M O'Shaughnessy
1996-07-21 0:00 ` Wayne
1996-07-22 0:00 ` Darin Johnson
1996-07-22 0:00 ` Darin Johnson
1996-07-23 0:00 ` Darin Johnson
1996-07-24 0:00 ` Andrew J Steinbach
1996-07-24 0:00 ` system
1996-07-24 0:00 ` Jon Bell
1996-07-24 0:00 ` John A Hughes
1996-07-24 0:00 ` Ralph Silverman
1996-07-24 0:00 ` TRAN PHAN ANH
1996-07-24 0:00 ` Michael Feldman
1996-07-24 0:00 ` Darin Johnson
1996-07-25 0:00 ` Andy Askey
1996-07-26 0:00 ` Mark Eissler
1996-08-02 0:00 ` Patrick Horgan
1996-08-04 0:00 ` Gary M. Greenberg
[not found] ` <4u76ej$7s9@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
1996-08-06 0:00 ` Ralph Silverman
1996-08-12 0:00 ` Patrick Horgan
1996-08-13 0:00 ` Ralph Silverman
1996-08-13 0:00 ` Darin Johnson
1996-08-13 0:00 ` What's the best language to learn? [was Re: Should I learn C or Pascal?] Tim Behrendsen
1996-08-14 0:00 ` Peter Seebach
1996-08-14 0:00 ` Tim Behrendsen
1996-08-14 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1996-08-14 0:00 ` Tim Behrendsen
1996-08-14 0:00 ` Dan Pop
1996-08-14 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1996-08-15 0:00 ` Joe Foster
1996-08-14 0:00 ` Peter Seebach
1996-08-14 0:00 ` Tim Behrendsen
1996-08-14 0:00 ` Peter Seebach
1996-08-15 0:00 ` Bob Gilbert
1996-08-15 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1996-08-16 0:00 ` Joe Foster
1996-08-18 0:00 ` Tim Behrendsen
1996-08-20 0:00 ` James Youngman
1996-08-21 0:00 ` Szu-Wen Huang
1996-08-15 0:00 ` DAVID A MOLNAR
1996-08-15 0:00 ` Bob Gilbert
1996-08-18 0:00 ` Tim Behrendsen
1996-08-16 0:00 ` Dr. Richard Botting
1996-08-18 0:00 ` Tim Behrendsen
1996-08-21 0:00 ` Szu-Wen Huang
1996-08-21 0:00 ` Tim Behrendsen
1996-08-22 0:00 ` Mark Wooding
1996-08-23 0:00 ` Bengt Richter
1996-08-23 0:00 ` Clayton Weaver
1996-08-16 0:00 ` Bob Gilbert
1996-08-17 0:00 ` Tim Behrendsen
1996-08-18 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1996-08-18 0:00 ` Tim Behrendsen
1996-08-26 0:00 ` Patrick Horgan
1996-08-27 0:00 ` Alan Peake
1996-08-27 0:00 ` Steve Heller
1996-08-28 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1996-08-28 0:00 ` Tom Watson
1996-08-28 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1996-08-30 0:00 ` Alan Peake
1996-08-31 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1996-09-03 0:00 ` Alan Peake
1996-09-07 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1996-09-07 0:00 ` .
1996-08-29 0:00 ` Darin Johnson
1996-08-19 0:00 ` John Hobson
1996-08-19 0:00 ` Tim Behrendsen
1996-08-19 0:00 ` John Hobson
1996-08-20 0:00 ` Szu-Wen Huang
1996-08-27 0:00 ` Richard A. O'Keefe
1996-08-23 0:00 ` Alan Bowler
1996-08-14 0:00 ` Gabor Egressy
1996-08-15 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1996-08-17 0:00 ` Lawrence Kirby
1996-08-17 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1996-08-20 0:00 ` Lawrence Kirby
1996-08-16 0:00 ` Mark Wooding
1996-08-17 0:00 ` Dan Pop
1996-08-17 0:00 ` Tim Behrendsen
1996-08-17 0:00 ` Peter Seebach
1996-08-18 0:00 ` Tim Behrendsen
1996-08-17 0:00 ` Dan Pop
1996-08-18 0:00 ` Mark Wooding
1996-08-20 0:00 ` Peter Seebach
1996-08-21 0:00 ` Szu-Wen Huang
1996-08-21 0:00 ` Tim Behrendsen
1996-08-21 0:00 ` Adam Beneschan
1996-08-17 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1996-08-21 0:00 ` Tanmoy Bhattacharya
1996-08-30 0:00 ` Goto considered really harmful Patrick Horgan
1996-09-04 0:00 ` Dennison
1996-08-21 0:00 ` What's the best language to learn? [any language except Ada] Bill Mackay
1996-08-22 0:00 ` Stephen M O'Shaughnessy
1996-08-22 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1996-08-23 0:00 ` Larry J. Elmore
1996-08-24 0:00 ` Alan Brain
1996-08-15 0:00 ` Should I learn C or Pascal? Richard A. O'Keefe
1996-08-17 0:00 ` Mike Rubenstein
1996-08-17 0:00 ` Lawrence Kirby
1996-08-18 0:00 ` Ken Pizzini
1996-08-19 0:00 ` Richard A. O'Keefe
1996-08-23 0:00 ` Joe Keane
1996-08-17 0:00 ` Alexander J Russell
1996-08-16 0:00 ` Dr E. Buxbaum
1996-08-16 0:00 ` Mike Rubenstein
1996-08-16 0:00 ` Lawrence Kirby
1996-08-17 0:00 ` Paul Hsieh
1996-08-17 0:00 ` Mike Rubenstein
1996-08-19 0:00 ` Richard A. O'Keefe
1996-08-20 0:00 ` Mike Rubenstein
1996-08-22 0:00 ` Richard A. O'Keefe
1996-08-22 0:00 ` Mike Rubenstein
1996-08-20 0:00 ` Paul Schlyter
1996-08-20 0:00 ` Mike Rubenstein
1996-08-21 0:00 ` James Youngman
1996-08-22 0:00 ` TRAN PHAN ANH
1996-08-22 0:00 ` Dr E. Buxbaum
1996-08-27 0:00 ` Jeffrey C. Dege
1996-08-27 0:00 ` Bob Cousins
1996-08-27 0:00 ` Steve Heller
1996-08-27 0:00 ` Ted Dennison
1996-08-27 0:00 ` Craig Franck
1996-08-27 0:00 ` Ted Dennison
1996-08-27 0:00 ` John Hobson
1996-08-28 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1996-09-01 0:00 ` Patrick Horgan
1996-09-12 0:00 ` Delete - Don't Bother to Read This Charles H. Sampson
1996-08-16 0:00 ` Should I learn C or Pascal? Darin Johnson
1996-08-16 0:00 ` What's the best language to learn? [was Re: Should I learn C or Pascal?] Darin Johnson
1996-08-16 0:00 ` system
1996-08-16 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1996-08-20 0:00 ` Should I learn C or Pascal? Darin Johnson
1996-08-21 0:00 ` What's the best language to learn? [was Re: Should I learn C or Pascal?] Darin Johnson
1996-08-22 0:00 ` What's the best language to learn? [any language except Ada] Jon S Anthony
1996-08-23 0:00 ` Darin Johnson
1996-08-25 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1996-08-24 0:00 ` Jon S Anthony
1996-08-05 0:00 ` Should I learn C or Pascal? Sherwin Anthony Sequeira
1996-07-24 0:00 ` Jon S Anthony
1996-07-25 0:00 ` ++ robin
1996-07-30 0:00 ` Robert Barnes
1996-07-30 0:00 ` Rob(t.) Brannan
1996-08-01 0:00 ` ++ robin
1996-08-01 0:00 ` Ralph Silverman
1996-08-06 0:00 ` ++ robin
1996-08-01 0:00 ` Tony Konashenok
1996-08-04 0:00 ` Lawrence Kirby
1996-08-09 0:00 ` Verne Arase
1996-07-25 0:00 ` ++ robin
1996-07-25 0:00 ` ++ robin
1996-07-31 0:00 ` What's the best language to start with? [was: Re: Should I learn C or Pascal?] Darin Johnson
1996-08-02 0:00 ` Alan Peake
1996-07-31 0:00 ` Darin Johnson
1996-08-01 0:00 ` Tim Behrendsen
1996-08-01 0:00 ` Stephen M O'Shaughnessy
1996-08-03 0:00 ` Tim Behrendsen
1996-08-06 0:00 ` Stephen M O'Shaughnessy
1996-08-05 0:00 ` Patrick Horgan
1996-08-06 0:00 ` Dan Pop
1996-08-08 0:00 ` steidl
1996-08-06 0:00 ` Szu-Wen Huang
1996-08-01 0:00 ` Stefan 'Stetson' Skoglund
1996-08-05 0:00 ` Stephen M O'Shaughnessy
1996-08-06 0:00 ` Bob Gilbert
1996-08-07 0:00 ` Stephen M O'Shaughnessy
1996-08-09 0:00 ` Bob Gilbert
1996-08-06 0:00 ` Patrick Horgan
1996-08-01 0:00 ` Andy Hardy
1996-08-07 0:00 ` Fergus Henderson
1996-08-07 0:00 ` Tim Behrendsen
1996-08-08 0:00 ` Szu-Wen Huang
1996-08-08 0:00 ` Tim Behrendsen
1996-08-08 0:00 ` Christopher R Volpe
1996-08-08 0:00 ` Szu-Wen Huang
1996-08-08 0:00 ` Tim Behrendsen
1996-08-09 0:00 ` Szu-Wen Huang
1996-08-09 0:00 ` Tim Behrendsen
1996-08-10 0:00 ` Szu-Wen Huang
1996-08-11 0:00 ` Tim Behrendsen
1996-08-09 0:00 ` some days weren't there at all
1996-08-10 0:00 ` Mike Rubenstein
1996-08-11 0:00 ` Szu-Wen Huang
1996-08-17 0:00 ` Richard Chiu
1996-09-04 0:00 ` Lawrence Kirby
1996-08-08 0:00 ` Peter Seebach
1996-08-08 0:00 ` Tim Behrendsen
1996-08-08 0:00 ` Peter Seebach
1996-08-09 0:00 ` Tim Behrendsen
1996-08-09 0:00 ` Peter Seebach
1996-08-15 0:00 ` James_Rogers
1996-08-17 0:00 ` Tim Behrendsen
1996-08-10 0:00 ` Mike Rubenstein
1996-08-10 0:00 ` Peter Seebach
1996-08-11 0:00 ` Craig Franck
1996-09-02 0:00 Richard A. O'Keefe
[not found] <01 <1996Sep24.133312 <JSA.96Sep26124243@alexandria>
1996-09-26 0:00 ` Adam Beneschan
1996-09-29 0:00 ` Spencer M. Simpson, Jr.
1996-09-30 0:00 ` Craig Franck
1996-09-28 0:00 ` Jon S Anthony
1996-09-28 0:00 ` Ilias Kastanas
-- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
1996-09-28 0:00 Jon S Anthony
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