RE: powerful editors versus IDEs (was: License to Steal)

RE: powerful editors versus IDEs (was: License to Steal)

[Beard, Frank]

Kent, I certainly agree with most of your comments.

However, the ObjectAda (for Windows) IDE does allow you
to use a different editor, but its editor is adequate.
I tried numerous editors without finding one I liked
better, so I gave up trying to find a better one.

It has most of what I consider to be necessary features:

  - the standard search/replace
  - auto formatting
  - color coded identifiers (reserved words, comments, etc.)
  - multi-line indent/unindent and auto-indent
  - multi-line comment/uncomment
  - find in files the allows you to click on the
    entry to jump to the location in the file
  - bookmarks
  - go to definition/completion (browse), unfortunately
    it has a limitation.  You can browse forward all you
    want, but it will only pop back one level.  I'm
    hoping they will have a fix for that soon.

I miss the repeat function in emacs, where you could repeat
an action anywhere in a file.  That would definitely come in
handy when we have to add an update comment to the end of 
every line that we modify.

But I hate the way you open a file in emacs.  I like the
GUI approach of popping up an Open Dialog box to allow you
to browse to a file.  ObjectAda has a Project window that
lists all the files included in the project.  Simply
double click the entry and it opens it.  If the file is
not part of the project, then the Open Dialog is an easy
way to find and open it.

> I find it much easier to keep an editor window
> open, and build my software with _my_ choice of
> editors, importing the code fresh into the IDE
> with each edit and paying the penalty of no
> incremental compilation or whatever

This usually isn't a problem with ObjectAda until the 
project starts getting large.  And even then, you can
open another copy of ObjectAda as an editor only.
That way the copy that's opened as the project for 
compilation doesn't do the internal validation, but you
do lose the "go to completion" capability, because it
will only browse on files that are part of the project.

I don't think I tried vim.  Where can I find it?  Does
it work on Windows NT?

Thanks
Frank

-----Original Message-----
From: xanthian@well.com [mailto:xanthian@well.com]
Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2001 4:26 AM
To: comp.lang.ada@ada.eu.org
Subject: <no subject>


Subject powerful editors versus IDEs in software development Re: License to
Steal
References: <mailman.988913824.5508.comp.lang.ada@ada.eu.org>

> I prefer a GUI oriented IDE with some power.  I
> miss some of the features of both editors, but
> not nearly enough to ever go back.

> Frank

I'm a bit confused; how could you describe an IDE
as "with some power" if it doesn't even provide
for dropping through to your power editor of
choice?

  [I'm a vim() fan myself, having outgrown both
  vi() and emacs(), but that's not really
  relevant to the larger issue of being captive
  to wimpy editing tools when writing software.]

The StarLogo language in which I'm presently
writing code (don't ask) also has an IDE, also
has a "wimpy to the point of provoking suicidal
impulses" editor.

I find it much easier to keep an editor window
open, and build my software with _my_ choice of
editors, importing the code fresh into the IDE
with each edit and paying the penalty of no
incremental compilation or whatever, than I do
trying to work with an editor roughly as feature
free as MS-Notepad.

After all, typical compilers are lightning fast
today, so almost all of the _time_ I spend in
software development is spent editing, whether of
code or docs, so editing is where I want the most
powerful assistance from my choice of tools.  In
my experience with several integrated development
environments, IDE developers have too many things
on their plates to also develop the world's best
editor, whatever that might be, as part of their
tool, and the embedded editor more often smacks
of being an afterthought.

I suppose this is back to the Unix concept of a
suite of tools each of which does one thing well
and has a simple integration technique, being
more usable than a monolithic tool that does lots
of things tolerably.

Which is of course a religious issue.

All of which are only opinions, but ones based on
grunches of carpal tunnel syndrome risk taking over
almost 41 years.

Cheers!

xanthian.
--
Kent Paul Dolan <xanthian@well.com>


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Re: RE: powerful editors versus IDEs (was: License to Steal)

[Ted Dennison]

In article <mailman.989428626.10442.comp.lang.ada@ada.eu.org>, Beard, Frank
says...
>However, the ObjectAda (for Windows) IDE does allow you
..
>It has most of what I consider to be necessary features:

I consider a macro facility to be necessary (ever needed to space over 4 spaces
in 300 declarations, or create a declaration for each number in another file?),
and I notice its not in your list.

>But I hate the way you open a file in emacs.  I like the
>GUI approach of popping up an Open Dialog box to allow you
>to browse to a file.  ObjectAda has a Project window that

The way I open a file in emacs is by hitting ctrl-D to bring up dired-mode on
one of the file's parent directories. Then I browse down the directory tree
until I find the file by using the 'f' or "Enter" key. It doesn't sound
significatly different.

Sometimes, using emacs' file name completion I don't need to go through all that
effort. The Windows Open Dialog has no such capability.

---
T.E.D.    homepage   - http://www.telepath.com/dennison/Ted/TED.html
          home email - mailto:dennison@telepath.com

Re: RE: powerful editors versus IDEs (was: License to Steal)

[Ted Dennison]

In article <mailman.989428626.10442.comp.lang.ada@ada.eu.org>, Beard, Frank
says...
>However, the ObjectAda (for Windows) IDE does allow you
..
>It has most of what I consider to be necessary features:

I consider a macro facility to be necessary (ever needed to space over 4 spaces
in 300 declarations, or create a declaration for each number in another file?),
and I notice its not in your list.

>But I hate the way you open a file in emacs.  I like the
>GUI approach of popping up an Open Dialog box to allow you
>to browse to a file.  ObjectAda has a Project window that

The way I open a file in emacs is by hitting ctrl-D to bring up dired-mode on
one of the file's parent directories. Then I browse down the directory tree
until I find the file by using the 'f' or "Enter" key. It doesn't sound
significatly different.

Sometimes, using emacs' file name completion I don't need to go through all that
effort. The Windows Open Dialog has no such capability.

---
T.E.D.    homepage   - http://www.telepath.com/dennison/Ted/TED.html
          home email - mailto:dennison@telepath.com

Re: powerful editors versus IDEs (was: License to Steal)

[Matthias Kretschmer]

> I don't think I tried vim.  Where can I find it?  Does
> it work on Windows NT?

You can find vim at www.vim.org. It works on many platforms including Windows
NT. I personally use only vi/vim as a editor, but this might not be a choice
everybody would do. vim is very powerfull if you know it, if you don't know it
at all, you could be get into trouble exiting the editor :-)

of course it supports syntax highlighting for ada (just tried it with some
files for gnat - vim knows the file-extensions, so no problem).

mfg Matthias Kretschmer

Re: powerful editors versus IDEs (was: License to Steal)

[Ted Dennison]

In article <3AF9903A.B47431C8@gmx.net>, Matthias Kretschmer says...
>
>> I don't think I tried vim.  Where can I find it?  Does
>> it work on Windows NT?
>
>NT. I personally use only vi/vim as a editor, but this might not be a choice
..
>of course it supports syntax highlighting for ada (just tried it with some
>files for gnat - vim knows the file-extensions, so no problem).

But if you use nvi instead, you can get Vigor (
http://www.red-bean.com/~joelh/vigor/ ), a MS Office Clippy clone for vi! :-)

---
T.E.D.    homepage   - http://www.telepath.com/dennison/Ted/TED.html
          home email - mailto:dennison@telepath.com
(promoting emacs through the back-door)

RE: RE: powerful editors versus IDEs (was: License to Steal)

[Beard, Frank]

-----Original Message-----
From: Ted Dennison [mailto:dennison@telepath.com]

> I consider a macro facility to be necessary (ever needed to space over 4
spaces
> in 300 declarations, or create a declaration for each number in another
file?),
> and I notice its not in your list.

I was listing what it has, not what it is missing.  As far as the 4 spaces
example,
if you are talking about indenting the 300 declarations over 4 spaces, then
yes
that is the indent/unindent that I listed.  If you are talking about adding
4 spaces
in the middle of a line, as in wanting to move the colons (:) in the
declarations 
over 4 spaces to keep them all lined up, then that is what I called the
"repeat"
feature from emacs, which I do miss.  But it is far from a monumental
problem unless
you have a huge number of lines involved, which doesn't seem to happen that
often.

> The way I open a file in emacs is by hitting ctrl-D to bring up dired-mode
on
> one of the file's parent directories. Then I browse down the directory
tree
> until I find the file by using the 'f' or "Enter" key. It doesn't sound
> significatly different.

You're right, it is similar, but less user friendly and less aesthetically
pleasing,
at least to me.

> Sometimes, using emacs' file name completion I don't need to go through
all that
> effort. The Windows Open Dialog has no such capability.

That's not exactly true, it does have something similar, in that after you
bring up
the dialog box (just as in the ObjectAda project window), if you begin
typing
characters, it will jump you to the nearest matching name.  Then you can
pick from
that part of the list.  Windows Explorer works the same way.

I really don't want to start an editor war.  Everyone has their own
preference.
Emacs is a powerful editor (as is vi).  I just don't like the more primitive
look
and feel.

Frank

Re: powerful editors versus IDEs (was: License to Steal)

[Gary Scott]

Rectangular cut and paste/drag/drop is supported by Kedit also.

Larry Kilgallen wrote:
> 
> In article <hSfK6.8063$vg1.667986@www.newsranger.com>, Ted Dennison<dennison@telepath.com> writes:
> > In article <mailman.989428626.10442.comp.lang.ada@ada.eu.org>, Beard, Frank
> > says...
> >>However, the ObjectAda (for Windows) IDE does allow you
> > ..
> >>It has most of what I consider to be necessary features:
> >
> > I consider a macro facility to be necessary (ever needed to space over 4 spaces
> > in 300 declarations, or create a declaration for each number in another file?),
> > and I notice its not in your list.
> 
> Although I prefer TECO (somewhat more powerful than a Macro facility),
> if those 300 lines are adjacent the feature I hear GUI editor fans
> espouse is "rectangular cut and paste".

Re: RE: powerful editors versus IDEs (was: License to Steal)

[Larry Kilgallen]

In article <hSfK6.8063$vg1.667986@www.newsranger.com>, Ted Dennison<dennison@telepath.com> writes:
> In article <mailman.989428626.10442.comp.lang.ada@ada.eu.org>, Beard, Frank
> says...
>>However, the ObjectAda (for Windows) IDE does allow you
> ..
>>It has most of what I consider to be necessary features:
> 
> I consider a macro facility to be necessary (ever needed to space over 4 spaces
> in 300 declarations, or create a declaration for each number in another file?),
> and I notice its not in your list.

Although I prefer TECO (somewhat more powerful than a Macro facility),
if those 300 lines are adjacent the feature I hear GUI editor fans
espouse is "rectangular cut and paste".

Re: powerful editors versus IDEs (was: License to Steal)

[John English]

Matthias Kretschmer wrote:
> vim is very powerfull if you know it, if you don't know it
> at all, you could be get into trouble exiting the editor :-)

We had an attempted hacker break-in at our site last year. The thing
that foiled the attempt was vi -- one of the system files had been
edited, but the edit has been killed, and the recovery log showed
the file to be full of "quit -- exit -- bye -- GET ME OUT OF HERE!"
stuff near the end... :-)

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 Senior Lecturer           | http://www.it.bton.ac.uk/staff/je
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Re: powerful editors versus IDEs (was: License to Steal)

[Simon Wright]

"Beard, Frank" <beardf@spawar.navy.mil> writes:

> I miss the repeat function in emacs, where you could repeat
> an action anywhere in a file.  That would definitely come in
> handy when we have to add an update comment to the end of 
> every line that we modify.

Jings! management gone mad! you need to look into a proper source code
management system. CVS is free (so is SCCS, but why you would want to
use it I don't know ..)

What do your source files look like after a few updates? full of crap
telling me who changed stuff and (perhaps) why, completely obscuring
the program logic and making it look so ugly that anyone with the
faintest sense of aesthetics comes over faint when asked to look at
it.

(Frank, I quite understand that this sort of thing is a policy imposed
from on high, not what you'd necessarily choose to do).

Re: powerful editors versus IDEs (was: License to Steal)

[Anders Wirzenius]

Simon Wright wrote in message ...
>"Beard, Frank" <beardf@spawar.navy.mil> writes:
>
>> I miss the repeat function in emacs, where you could repeat
>> an action anywhere in a file.  That would definitely come in
>> handy when we have to add an update comment to the end of
>> every line that we modify.
>
>Jings! management gone mad! you need to look into a proper source code
>management system. CVS is free (so is SCCS, but why you would want to
>use it I don't know ..)
>
>What do your source files look like after a few updates? full of crap
>telling me who changed stuff and (perhaps) why, completely obscuring
>the program logic and making it look so ugly that anyone with the
>faintest sense of aesthetics comes over faint when asked to look at
>it.

A method I used to practise in a former programmer life was to add comments
at the end of each updated line. When the current updating task was done,
tested and released, the line end comments where removed and replaced by a
short description in the header of the module. With that method we didn't
have to bother what comments to write in the header each time we changed
something. The summary was easy to write by reading through the line end
comments.

Anders Wirzenius