From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on polar.synack.me X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 X-Google-Language: ENGLISH,ASCII-7-bit X-Google-Thread: f4fd2,23202754c9ce78dd X-Google-Attributes: gidf4fd2,public X-Google-Thread: fac41,15edb893ef79e231 X-Google-Attributes: gidfac41,public X-Google-Thread: 114809,15edb893ef79e231 X-Google-Attributes: gid114809,public X-Google-Thread: 103376,15edb893ef79e231 X-Google-Attributes: gid103376,public X-Google-ArrivalTime: 2002-01-13 11:04:40 PST Path: archiver1.google.com!news1.google.com!newsfeed.stanford.edu!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!agate.berkeley.edu!agate!not-for-mail From: tfb@conquest.OCF.Berkeley.EDU (Thomas F. Burdick) Newsgroups: comp.lang.lisp,comp.lang.ada,comp.lang.eiffel,comp.lang.smalltalk Subject: Re: True faiths ( was Re: The true faith ) Date: 13 Jan 2002 11:04:36 -0800 Organization: University of California, Berkeley Message-ID: References: <3c36fbc5_10@news.newsgroups.com> <4idg3u40ermnp682n6igc5gudp7hajkea9@4ax.com> <76be8851.0201101909.9db0718@posting.google.com> <9jtu3u8cq92b05j47uat3412tok6hqu1ki@4ax.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: conquest.ocf.berkeley.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: agate.berkeley.edu 1010948678 42321 128.32.191.90 (13 Jan 2002 19:04:38 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@agate.berkeley.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2002 19:04:38 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.1 Xref: archiver1.google.com comp.lang.lisp:24182 comp.lang.ada:18870 comp.lang.eiffel:5391 comp.lang.smalltalk:17873 Date: 2002-01-13T11:04:36-08:00 List-Id: Nils Goesche writes: > There /is/ something wrong with your idea of `capitalism' being > `optimizing' for anything like `short-term gains'. /People/ are > `optimizing'. Maybe some managers and politicians are `optimizing > for short-term gains'. But that is nothing to worry about: If you > think you know better how to win in the long run, by any means, do it! > Those stupid short-term-thinkers that apparently worry you so much > will lose and you'll take them over when they're broke ;-) To say the above you need to completely ignore property relations. > But yes, I know what you're up to. No, you don't. Just because you've met a whole lot of Stalinists and holier-than-thou Social Democrats doesn't mean you understand the views of everyone in the class struggle. In particular, even if it were reasonable to have that attitude with Europeans, projecting your political understanding across the Atlantic is a recipe for disaster. You are, like everybody else > on the `leftist' side, > convinced that you can do better than the market; that you know what > people /really/ want, or at least should want to do or to buy because > you are, because of your superior intelligence, able to predict > the future and are the only one who can tell what has to be done instead > in order to save us all. So, we need a strong government, ownership > of companies and anything else has to be transferred to the government > which must be led by yourself, of course, not by some ordinary, > mortal short-term-thinker. Then, elections are no longer necessary > and in fact dangerous, because the stupid public might not recognize, > because of their lack of intelligence, how everything the government > does will be good for them, in the long run, of course, and some > `right-wing' evildoers might convince them to elect somebody else and > we can't have that, can we? > > Pretty close? I hope you are not offended by this too much, but I > wanted to show you how all this `leftist' talk sounds to people not > sharing your views. Oh, I know how I sound to others. I can't do much about the fact that some people listen to one thing and hear another. The only way to get past that is to have a real conversation with someone. On that note, if you want to continue this over e-mail, I'm down. But I'd rather not continue this in comp.*, for reasons I hope are obvious :) > by Milton and Rose D. Friedman, Oh dear god, Milton Friedman??? I don't know about your politicl views, but this man's are frighteningly right-wing. If you want to know what his politics means for the 2nd and 3rd world, look at what he helped do in Latin America. BTW, this is a very mainstream view to be frightened of / hateful towards him. -- /|_ .-----------------------. ,' .\ / | No to Imperialist war | ,--' _,' | Wage class war! | / / `-----------------------' ( -. | | ) | (`-. '--.) `. )----' ^This is a sabot cat, a big clue I'm not a communist