From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on polar.synack.me X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 X-Google-Language: ENGLISH,ASCII-7-bit X-Google-Thread: 107f24,626a0a064b320310 X-Google-Attributes: gid107f24,public X-Google-Thread: f4fd2,626a0a064b320310 X-Google-Attributes: gidf4fd2,public X-Google-Thread: 10259a,626a0a064b320310 X-Google-Attributes: gid10259a,public X-Google-Thread: 114809,626a0a064b320310 X-Google-Attributes: gid114809,public X-Google-Thread: 1164ba,626a0a064b320310 X-Google-Attributes: gid1164ba,public X-Google-Thread: 103d24,626a0a064b320310 X-Google-Attributes: gid103d24,public X-Google-Thread: 103376,ea8ea502d35ca2ce X-Google-Attributes: gid103376,public X-Google-ArrivalTime: 2001-05-11 00:38:02 PST Path: archiver1.sj.google.com!newsfeed.google.com!sn-xit-02!supernews.com!news.gv.tsc.tdk.com!falcon.america.net!news.mindspring.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.tele.dk!195.54.122.107!newsfeed1.bredband.com!bredband!uio.no!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!newsfeed.kpnqwest.fi!news.kpnqwest.fi!not-for-mail Sender: ola@arenal.cyberell.com Newsgroups: comp.lang.ada,comp.lang.lisp,comp.lang.smalltalk,comp.lang.basic,comp.lang.functional,comp.lang.scheme,comp.lang.perl Subject: Re: Beginner's Language? References: <9cukad$nn68@news-dxb> <9d6b6e$1bt$1@nh.pace.co.uk> <87snihxiwc.fsf@frown.here> <9dbi83$sji$1@nh.pace.co.uk> <9deb6a$hdp$1@a1-hrz.uni-duisburg.de> From: Ola Rinta-Koski Message-ID: Organization: Cyberell Oy User-Agent: Gnus/5.0807 (Gnus v5.8.7) XEmacs/21.1 (Cuyahoga Valley) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 07:34:52 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 212.226.128.170 X-Complaints-To: helpdesk@kpnqwest.fi X-Trace: news.kpnqwest.fi 989566492 212.226.128.170 (Fri, 11 May 2001 10:34:52 EET DST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 10:34:52 EET DST Xref: archiver1.sj.google.com comp.lang.ada:7381 comp.lang.lisp:9815 comp.lang.smalltalk:9554 comp.lang.functional:5543 comp.lang.scheme:3705 comp.lang.perl:2643 Date: 2001-05-11T07:34:52+00:00 List-Id: sb463ba@l1-hrz.uni-duisburg.de (Georg Bauhaus) writes: > Marin David Condic (marin.condic.auntie.spam@pacemicro.com) wrote: > : If you are familiar with Lisp, try this: Write a small program to read in a > : couple of numbers from a keyboard, do some math with them and print the > : result to the screen. Now look at it. Could a neophite with literally *zero* > Then, Ola Rinta-Koski (with f'Up to iso-something): > > "(let ((foo 0)) > (dotimes (i 5) > (incf foo (read))) > foo) > > [is easy]" > : That's why I wouldn't recommend Lisp as a first programming language in an > : intro to CS course. > > : Gee. I never thought I'd have to defend THAT statement! :-) > > The above looks like Scheme with macros(?) But is in fact straight ANSI Common Lisp. > and has a few didactical problems, as I'd like to report, with some > additional guesses thrown in. (not to say that these problems are > not present in many or all other languages): You may have to answer > some questions from your inexperieced(!) listeners, But of course. That's what the teacher's job is. > So some of these things (like creating "variables") had better > explain themselves a bit more, i.e. without overloaded parentheses, > for example. And is there a rationale for this statement? Would it be better to use brackets or curly brackets, so as not to use parentheses for different purposes? No language, even one designed solely for the purpose of teaching, will be completely self-explanatory for a neophyte. What remains to be debated is the degree of help needed for the student to "get it". I am not advocating (Common) Lisp as a first language per se; I am merely stating that it would not automatically be a worse choice than . > PS: What I find puzzling is the lack of an abundance of statements > from people who have actually taught several very different > languages... On what basis do you make this statement? I can't speak for others, but I have taught C and C++ in addition to Lisp. If you want comments from only those with at least (say) five (or ten, or twenty, or...) languages on the list, you'll have a quiet conversation. -- Ola Rinta-Koski ola@cyberell.com Cyberell Oy +358 41 467 2502 Rauhankatu 8 C, FIN-00170 Helsinki, FINLAND www.cyberell.com