From: pcg@aber.ac.uk (Piercarlo Grandi)
Subject: Re: Exceptions as objects (was Re: What is wrong with OO ?)
Date: 1997/02/07
Date: 1997-02-07T00:00:00+00:00 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <vwjbu9wa6rw.fsf@osfb.aber.ac.uk> (raw)
In-Reply-To: 5de797$1ksa@uni.library.ucla.edu
>>> "jmartin" == Jay Martin <jmartin@cs.ucla.edu> writes:
jmartin> piercarl@sabi.demon.co.uk (Piercarlo Grandi) writes:
piercarl> Well, yes and no. Not quite. It can be kludged, and I have
piercarl> provided one such kludge, but adding to a language is easy but
piercarl> non trivial. Since it is needed regardless of whether a
piercarl> language provides it or not, it's better to have it done
piercarl> cleanly and efficiently rather than as a kludge.
piercarl> This is actually a general principle of system/language
piercarl> design; there are a number of features which are essential,
piercarl> and cannot simply be omitted; omitting them from the
piercarl> primitives of the languages will simply mena that the
piercarl> implementation burden shifts on the programmer. My two
piercarl> favourite examples are spooling for operating systems and
piercarl> generators for programming languages. There are OSes that
piercarl> don't have spooling, and then it must be done by the user, by
piercarl> multitasking her/imself; there are languages that don't have
piercarl> generators, and then they must be simulated by the programmer,
piercarl> usually via global variables or ``control blocks''. In either
piercarl> case it is a waste. Dynamic scoping is another good example.
jmartin> It seems to me you are assuming that dynamic scoping is necessary and
jmartin> that a programmer will have to simulate it. It seems more prudent to
jmartin> me to recognize the limitations and paradigm of your tool and just
jmartin> implement it in the tedious and boring "normal" way.
Ahhh, but what I have been arguing is merely the obvious: runtime
customization of imlementations is a fact of life, whether one like sit
or not, and dynamically scoped identifiers are the most
direct/obvious/``simplest'' way to do it, e.g. environment variables in
UNIX and similar facilities in most other systems/languages.
It is well true that once can always perform a reduction from a program
with statically or dynamically scoped global/fluid variables to one that
does not have them, only parameters and local variables (and the latter
can further be transformed into parameters):
jmartin> Which in this instance is by passing parameters
but this does not necessarily mean that it is desirable... In effect it
is not very desirable, as long as the global/fluid variables left in teh
program are clearly encapsulated.
jmartin> or having different functions.
This is in the general case unfeasible (there can be any number of
procedures that one would want to do)...
jmartin> [ ... strong preference for the bondage&discipline school of
jmartin> programmign language design :-) ... ]
jmartin> When you are in a room filled criminally insane programmers,
jmartin> straightjackets nstart sounding like a cool idea.
I must confess that this approach actually strikes a chord with me,
except that I'd rather have a BFG-9000 than a set of straitjackets :-).
But then on balance, emotions set aside, I tend to prefer tools that can
be used nicely by the non criminally insane (the merely insane probably)
programmers to do nifty things, than those designed for damage
limitation. Perhaps I am an incurable optimist.
next prev parent reply other threads:[~1997-02-07 0:00 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 260+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
1997-01-01 0:00 What is wrong with OO ? Ell
1997-01-01 0:00 ` Jon S Anthony
1997-01-02 0:00 ` Robert C. Martin
1997-01-03 0:00 ` Eirik Mangseth
1997-01-03 0:00 ` What is wrong with OO O X g Greg Comeau
1997-01-04 0:00 ` OO, C++, and something much better! John (Max) Skaller
1997-01-04 0:00 ` vlad
1997-01-05 0:00 ` Mike Anderson
1997-01-06 0:00 ` Stanley Allen
1997-01-09 0:00 ` Jon S Anthony
1997-01-06 0:00 ` Chris Brand
1997-01-08 0:00 ` Robert I. Eachus
1997-01-09 0:00 ` Bertrand Meyer
1997-01-27 0:00 ` Richard Riehle
1997-01-10 0:00 ` Robert I. Eachus
1997-01-10 0:00 ` Robb Nebbe
1997-01-03 0:00 ` What is wrong with OO ? Jon S Anthony
1997-01-03 0:00 ` Matt Austern
1997-01-04 0:00 ` OO, C++, and something much better! Pieter Schoenmakers
1997-01-04 0:00 ` What is wrong with OO ? Valerie Torres
1997-01-06 0:00 ` Bart Samwel
1997-01-08 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1997-01-09 0:00 ` Fergus Henderson
1997-01-09 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1997-01-10 0:00 ` Fergus Henderson
1997-01-10 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1997-01-09 0:00 ` Richie Bielak
1997-01-10 0:00 ` Fergus Henderson
1997-01-09 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
1997-01-09 0:00 ` Simon Willcocks
1997-01-09 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1997-01-09 0:00 ` William Clodius
1997-01-09 0:00 ` Bertrand Meyer
1997-01-09 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1997-01-10 0:00 ` Fergus Henderson
1997-01-10 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1997-01-12 0:00 ` Fergus Henderson
1997-01-09 0:00 ` Jay Martin
1997-01-09 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1997-01-10 0:00 ` Fergus Henderson
1997-01-10 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
1997-01-10 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1997-01-12 0:00 ` Fergus Henderson
1997-01-12 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1997-01-10 0:00 ` Jay Martin
1997-01-12 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1997-01-15 0:00 ` Laurent Gasser
1997-01-15 0:00 ` Jay Martin
1997-01-15 0:00 ` Jonas Nygren
1997-01-17 0:00 ` Tom Bushell
1997-01-17 0:00 ` Michael Malak
1997-01-17 0:00 ` Kent Budge, sandia,
1997-01-17 0:00 ` Eirik Mangseth
1997-01-10 0:00 ` Jay Martin
1997-01-10 0:00 ` Joe Buck
1997-01-11 0:00 ` Jay Martin
1997-01-12 0:00 ` Slavik Zorin
1997-01-09 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
1997-01-11 0:00 ` Piercarlo Grandi
1997-01-12 0:00 ` Thierry Goubier
1997-01-14 0:00 ` Piercarlo Grandi
1997-01-14 0:00 ` Vos nom et pr�nom
1997-01-16 0:00 ` Mark Woodruff
1997-01-17 0:00 ` Piercarlo Grandi
1997-01-10 0:00 ` Bart Samwel
1997-01-10 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1997-01-10 0:00 ` Michael Malak
1997-01-10 0:00 ` Bart Samwel
1997-01-12 0:00 ` Fergus Henderson
1997-01-09 0:00 ` Bjarne Stroustrup
1997-01-11 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1997-01-15 0:00 ` Bjarne Stroustrup
1997-01-19 0:00 ` Jay Martin
1997-01-27 0:00 ` Robert C. Martin
1997-01-30 0:00 ` Damon Feldman
1997-01-20 0:00 ` Richard A. O'Keefe
1997-01-21 0:00 ` John W. Sarkela
1997-01-23 0:00 ` Piercarlo Grandi
1997-01-23 0:00 ` Bertrand Meyer
1997-01-24 0:00 ` language marketing question, was " Tom Moran
[not found] ` <5cpdh8$mau@news.csus.edu>
[not found] ` <5cs3un$14b4@uni.library.ucla.edu>
[not found] ` <rmartin-3101971753460001@pool15-027.wwa.com>
[not found] ` <5cu5ig$10fk@uni.library.ucla.edu>
[not found] ` <5dao0p$gri@decius.ultra.net>
[not found] ` <yf3n2th488t.fsf@sabi.demon.co.uk>
1997-02-11 0:00 ` Worse is better, was: Language marketing question Bob Haugen
1997-02-11 0:00 ` Donald M. MacQueen
1997-02-11 0:00 ` Lee Willis
[not found] ` <yf3rait49b9.fsf@sabi.demon.co.uk>
[not found] ` <01bc183b$fd091820$1544db03@gecmf-pc-eddjab.gecmf.capital.ge.com>
1997-02-13 0:00 ` language marketing question, was Re: What is wrong with OO ? Robert Dewar
1997-01-25 0:00 ` Damon Feldman
1997-01-26 0:00 ` Sean Case
1997-01-26 0:00 ` William Grosso
1997-01-28 0:00 ` Paul Keister
1997-01-28 0:00 ` Dann Corbit
1997-01-12 0:00 ` Fergus Henderson
1997-01-13 0:00 ` Bart Samwel
1997-01-12 0:00 ` Matt Telles
1997-01-15 0:00 ` Bjarne Stroustrup
1997-01-19 0:00 ` Matthew Heaney
1997-01-14 0:00 ` Vos nom et pr�nom
1997-01-16 0:00 ` Patrick Doyle
1997-01-16 0:00 ` Risto Lankinen
1997-01-16 0:00 ` Patrick Doyle
1997-01-16 0:00 ` Risto Lankinen
1997-01-18 0:00 ` Robert C. Martin
[not found] ` <01bc0269$3fd55b20$ca61e426@DCorbit.solutionsiq.com>
1997-02-10 0:00 ` richard
1997-02-10 0:00 ` Nick Leaton
[not found] ` <3303A993.759E@pratique.fr>
1997-02-21 0:00 ` Nick Leaton
1997-02-22 0:00 ` Fergus Henderson
1997-02-21 0:00 ` Nick Leaton
1997-02-10 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1997-01-20 0:00 ` David Emery
[not found] ` <dewar.852772995@mer <dewar.852833957@merv>
1997-01-10 0:00 ` Simon Willcocks
1997-01-10 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1997-01-10 0:00 ` Marky Mark
1997-01-10 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1997-01-12 0:00 ` Fergus Henderson
1997-01-12 0:00 ` Josh Stern
1997-01-12 0:00 ` Martin ELLISON
1997-01-14 0:00 ` Piercarlo Grandi
1997-01-17 0:00 ` Lawrence G. Mayka
1997-01-19 0:00 ` Piercarlo Grandi
1997-01-19 0:00 ` Exceptions as objects (was Re: What is wrong with OO ?) Patrick Doyle
1997-01-25 0:00 ` Piercarlo Grandi
1997-01-25 0:00 ` Paul Kyzivat
1997-01-25 0:00 ` Robert A Duff
1997-01-25 0:00 ` Robert A Duff
1997-01-28 0:00 ` Piercarlo Grandi
1997-01-28 0:00 ` Piercarlo Grandi
1997-01-25 0:00 ` Ronald E Jeffries
1997-01-25 0:00 ` Bryan Dollery
1997-01-25 0:00 ` Robert A Duff
1997-01-28 0:00 ` Piercarlo Grandi
1997-01-29 0:00 ` Robert A Duff
1997-01-29 0:00 ` John W. Sarkela
[not found] ` <yf33evav882.fsf@sabi.demon.co.uk>
[not found] ` <32FA58AD.2D96@enfish.com>
1997-02-12 0:00 ` Piercarlo Grandi
1997-01-30 0:00 ` Lawrence G. Mayka
1997-01-30 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1997-01-29 0:00 ` John (Max) Skaller
1997-01-28 0:00 ` Piercarlo Grandi
[not found] ` <5cu43v$jkn@nntpa.cb.lucent.com>
[not found] ` <yf3ybd14qn4.fsf@sabi.demon.co.uk>
[not found] ` <5de797$1ksa@uni.library.ucla.edu>
1997-02-07 0:00 ` Piercarlo Grandi [this message]
1997-02-08 0:00 ` Jay Martin
[not found] ` <5d93d3$nhs$1@goanna.cs.rmit.edu.au>
1997-02-07 0:00 ` Robert A Duff
[not found] ` <5dds5b$gcs@mulga.cs.mu.OZ.AU>
[not found] ` <01bc14ab$3ce476e0$752d54c7@vbykov.hip.cam.org>
1997-02-07 0:00 ` Patrick Doyle
[not found] ` <5def36$rjd@mulga.cs.mu.OZ.AU>
1997-02-07 0:00 ` Vassili Bykov
1997-02-07 0:00 ` Bill Gooch
1997-02-07 0:00 ` Vassili Bykov
1997-02-08 0:00 ` Fergus Henderson
1997-02-08 0:00 ` Piercarlo Grandi
1997-02-08 0:00 ` Piercarlo Grandi
1997-02-11 0:00 ` Vassili Bykov
1997-02-07 0:00 ` Robert A Duff
1997-02-10 0:00 ` Vassili Bykov
[not found] ` <5de57h$dm3$1@goanna.cs.rmit.edu.au>
1997-02-09 0:00 ` Fergus Henderson
1997-01-06 0:00 ` OO, C++, and something much better! Ole-Hjalmar Kristensen FOU.TD/DELAB
1997-01-06 0:00 ` Michael F Brenner
1997-01-06 0:00 ` Tucker Taft
1997-01-07 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1997-01-07 0:00 ` Ada Generics (was Re: OO, C++, and something much better!) Bob Gilbert
1997-01-07 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1997-01-08 0:00 ` OO, C++, and something much better! Robert Dewar
1997-01-07 0:00 ` Andrew Koenig
1997-01-10 0:00 ` Norman H. Cohen
1997-01-07 0:00 ` Jay Martin
1997-01-08 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
1997-01-08 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1997-01-08 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1997-01-09 0:00 ` Ted Dennison
1997-01-12 0:00 ` Richard Riehle
1997-01-07 0:00 ` Stanley Allen
1997-01-07 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1997-01-07 0:00 ` Bertrand Meyer
1997-01-08 0:00 ` Matthew Heaney
1997-01-08 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
1997-01-10 0:00 ` Keith Thompson
1997-01-10 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1997-01-10 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1997-01-15 0:00 ` Richard Kenner
1997-01-15 0:00 ` Fergus Henderson
1997-01-20 0:00 ` Andrew Koenig
1997-01-25 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1997-01-15 0:00 ` Ole-Hjalmar Kristensen FOU.TD/DELAB
1997-01-07 0:00 ` What is wrong with OO ? Jon S Anthony
1997-01-11 0:00 ` Bjarne Stroustrup
1997-01-21 0:00 ` rharlos*cybercomm.net
1997-02-10 0:00 ` richard
1997-02-10 0:00 ` Charles A. Jolley
1997-02-11 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1997-02-12 0:00 ` C++ Class Loc Minh Phan Van
1997-02-12 0:00 ` Kevin J. Hopps
1997-02-12 0:00 ` John Kapson [C]
1997-02-12 0:00 ` Ron Smith
1997-02-12 0:00 ` William Ying
1997-02-12 0:00 ` Paul Kenneth Egell-Johnsen
1997-02-12 0:00 ` Kent Tong
1997-02-12 0:00 ` Jason Shankel
1997-02-12 0:00 ` Keith P. Boruff
1997-02-12 0:00 ` Vlastimil Adamovsky
1997-03-03 0:00 ` C++ Class [ not a good answer ] Luis Espinal
1997-03-06 0:00 ` Tom Plunket
1997-02-12 0:00 ` C++ Class Aaron J Margosis
1997-02-13 0:00 ` Lee, Shih Hao
1997-02-17 0:00 ` What is wrong with OO ? Sam Inala
1997-02-17 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1997-02-15 0:00 ` Piercarlo Grandi
1997-02-11 0:00 ` Vlastimil Adamovsky
1997-01-07 0:00 ` Jon S Anthony
1997-01-08 0:00 ` OO, C++, and something much better! Jon S Anthony
1997-01-08 0:00 ` Mark A Biggar
1997-01-09 0:00 ` Don Harrison
1997-01-10 0:00 ` Roy Phillips
1997-01-27 0:00 ` Nick Leaton
1997-01-28 0:00 ` matthew mclellan
1997-01-09 0:00 ` Don Harrison
1997-01-09 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1997-01-10 0:00 ` Norman H. Cohen
1997-01-10 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
1997-01-10 0:00 ` Bart Samwel
1997-01-10 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1997-01-13 0:00 ` Don Harrison
1997-01-13 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1997-01-14 0:00 ` Don Harrison
1997-01-13 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
1997-01-13 0:00 ` Norman H. Cohen
1997-01-13 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1997-01-15 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
1997-01-17 0:00 ` Keith Thompson
1997-01-16 0:00 ` Keith Thompson
1997-01-16 0:00 ` Ken Garlington
1997-01-14 0:00 ` Michael F Brenner
1997-01-14 0:00 ` Don Harrison
1997-01-10 0:00 ` Jon S Anthony
1997-01-13 0:00 ` Don Harrison
1997-01-13 0:00 ` Don Harrison
1997-01-14 0:00 ` Jeff Carter
1997-01-15 0:00 ` Don Harrison
1997-01-17 0:00 ` Norman H. Cohen
1997-01-17 0:00 ` Jon S Anthony
1997-01-18 0:00 ` Patrick Doyle
1997-01-20 0:00 ` Jon S Anthony
1997-01-13 0:00 ` Robert I. Eachus
1997-01-15 0:00 ` Don Harrison
1997-01-08 0:00 ` David Emery
1997-01-09 0:00 ` Don Harrison
1997-01-10 0:00 ` Marky Mark
1997-01-14 0:00 ` Don Harrison
1997-01-08 0:00 ` Kohler Markus
1997-01-10 0:00 ` Matt Austern
1997-01-10 0:00 ` What is wrong with OO ? Pieter Schoenmakers
1997-01-12 0:00 ` Fergus Henderson
1997-01-10 0:00 ` Robert I. Eachus
1997-01-12 0:00 ` Piercarlo Grandi
1997-01-10 0:00 ` OO, C++, and something much better! Jon S Anthony
1997-01-12 0:00 ` What is wrong with OO ? Chris Morgan
1997-01-11 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1997-01-12 0:00 ` Chris Morgan
1997-01-13 0:00 ` Chris Morgan
1997-01-13 0:00 ` Pieter Schoenmakers
1997-01-13 0:00 ` Fergus Henderson
1997-01-13 0:00 ` ak
1997-01-23 0:00 ` Bertrand Meyer
1997-01-26 0:00 ` Piercarlo Grandi
1997-01-23 0:00 ` Ulrich Windl
1997-01-23 0:00 ` Chris Bitmead
1997-01-08 0:00 ` Richard A. O'Keefe
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